Why should I take sides…

[Chris the Chees]

Israel is not persecuting anyone. The Arabs that live in Israel have full democratic rites there is 3 Arab Parties in Israeli Parliament

And? Even following the enfranchisement of black people in America black people still suffered persecution.

Or perhaps, even with the Oslo accord, still not giving the Palestinian complete autonomy.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa In the Israeli-Palestine debate? Why should I not just reject all sides as tyranny? I would like to read some answers here. I have a feeling the anwers will have HUGE amounts of hypocrisy, lying, simple-mindedness and naivette. Grandpa h.

To get back on topic, I will answer your original question. You don't have to back solely the Palestinian or the Israeli position . You can take bits and pieces of what both sides are calling for.

However, this is a situation that can't be ignored. Like it or not it is the frontline of the conflict of the Arab world and the west. Both sides have points; however, both sides have done a ton of things wrong. This situation should not get ignored like the crisis in Danfur and Congo (which should be more on the front page then they are). Isolationism didn't work for the US before WW II (the conflict was too big).

Like it or not the West has a stake in what happens throughout the world and the Israeli-Palestinian situation requires addressing, since its at the frontline.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 To get back on topic, I will answer your original question. You don't have to back solely the Palestinian or the Israeli position .

It's nice to see you want to get on topic.

The basic idea you suggested would be required for negotiations, yes.

Grandpa h.

[ise]

shrike Israel is not persecuting anyone. The Arabs that live in Israel have full democratic rites there is 3 Arab Parties in Israeli Parliament

Stealing their land
There's a system for turning Palestinian property into Israel's state land

The State of Israel has imposed the law of the jungle on those territories. The Civil Administration, with the blessing of the State Prosecutor's Office, has been a key partner in a system of real estate deals, of which the description "dubious" would be complimentary.

shrike Of course it is. Zionism mostly is secular movement. It's raised up in 19th century a many other national movements.

I've some idea what this mean but...

shrike First of all the practice is already stopped and it have nothing with religion. The houses that were demolished were owned by terrorist. What it have to do with religion I don't know.

You have proof of this? Proof that they were owned by terrorists. Like Rachael Corrie?

shrike Orange and apples my friend cruising Israel as any other country in the world is absolutely acceptable.

What on earth is this. Please, shrike have the manners to read back your posts a second time.

shrike For example I criticize my government for committing ethnic cleansing in Gaza and turning it Judenfrei ..But being against the Jewish right for self determination is defiantly a racist practice. If you being against existence of Jewish state you are. There is no way around. If you against the existence of Italia you against Italians.

Bull. The Kurds want a state. They probably deserve a state. If I was against a Kurdish state does it follow that I'm against Kurds. Similarly with the Basque in Spain. In Ireland we have only 26 of 32 counties. Are you anti Irish if you are for the status quo.

I'm NOT against the existence of a Jewish state. I do not think that in the middle of Arab states and at the expense of the Palestinians is ever going to bring peace. A large enough island where you had no neighbours - you fight with everyone - would be ideal.

Peace on earth. With your 2000 years of movement, there probably is no where that you do not have as valid a claim as in Palestine. Now, if only they could rediscover Atlantis mid ocean. Your bound to have a claim on it.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa It's nice to see you want to get on topic. The basic idea you suggested would be required for negotiations, yes. Grandpa h.

True negotiation is the prefered manner, but how do you negotiate with a party that calls for your destruction?

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 True negotiation is the prefered manner, but how do you negotiate with a party that calls for your destruction?

This question need not be aimed solely at Hezbollah.
All sides in this conflict are "terrorists."
In fact, that's the reason serious negotiation never comes into it.

Grandpa h.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: grandpa Quote by: GHook93 True negotiation is the prefered manner, but how do you negotiate with a party that calls for your destruction? This question need not be aimed solely at Hezbollah. All sides in this conflict are "terrorists." In fact, that's the reason serious negotiation never comes into it. Grandpa h.

That is bunk IMO, Israel spent 6 years honoring their side of the resolutions meanwhile Lebanon and Hisbollah were violating them in exchange. Israel is just here all the way.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica That is bunk IMO, Israel spent 6 years honoring their side of the resolutions meanwhile Lebanon and Hisbollah were violating them in exchange. Israel is just here all the way.

Which six years were those? Israel has A LOT of UN resolution violations.
So there isn't a major effort to persecute Palestinians?

Grandpa h.

[shrike]

Quote by: Mia You have to be kidding. You don't really proclaim that all the houses demolished belonged to terrorists?

Yes of course. What reason Israel have to demolishing houses of innocent civilians?

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike Yes of course. What reason Israel have to demolishing houses of innocent civilians?

Yes, of course, you are correct. Governments always obey the call of reason.

Grandpa h.

[shrike]

Quote by: grandpa If the Israeli government is bulldozing people's homes and erecting huge walls against a group of people, that is exclusion, and I oppose it.

I dont know anything about any wall but there is anti-terrorist fence that meant to stop suicide bombers and it doing it job.

Why is it the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, then?

Its really simple religion. There is command in Muslim holy texts to kill Jews.

'm getting really tired of this horeshit. I've explained about 5 times now I have nothing against Jews. In fact, the very topic of this thread is how I haven't taken sides, whereas you clearly have. So please start discussing the issue in an honest way and deal with what I've actually said (repeatedly, mind you).

So you oppose Jewish state or not?

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike I dont know anything about any wall but there is anti-terrorist fence that meant to stop suicide bombers and it doing it job.

http://www.americantaskforce.org/jerusalem-wall.jpg

Quote by: shrike Its really simple religion. There is command in Muslim holy texts to kill Jews.

Quote by: shrike So you oppose Jewish state or not?

Yes, I oppose a Jewish state, or a Christian state, a Muslim state or an Atheist state.
And I especially oppose that existence as such a religious state that persecutes people.

Grandpa h.

[shrike]

Quote by: grandpa Yes, I oppose a Jewish state, or a Christian state, a Muslim state or an Atheist state.

But Jews are not religion Judaism is I already explained that to you. You must be missed that.

Quote by: shrike You cannot equate Jews with any other religion. Jews are ethno- religious community. And Israel is secular and democratic state. For example I am agnostic and Jew because my ethnicity is Jewish. Almost of the Jews are have middle eastern ancestry as last genetic researches showed the number or converts are very small and meaningless. If you don't accept Jewish right for self identification and determination you are racist all the way IMO.

http://www.americantaskforce.org/jerusalem-wall.jpg

Picture are not always tells the whole story.

Quote by: wiki The Israeli West Bank barrier is a physical barrier being constructed by Israel consisting of a network of fences with vehicle-barrier trenches (95%) and concrete walls (5%).

So how can you call a structure that 95% is fence a wall?Its only show you bias.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...JeninFence.jpg

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa This question need not be aimed solely at Hezbollah. All sides in this conflict are "terrorists." In fact, that's the reason serious negotiation never comes into it. Grandpa h.

Forget Hezbollah, I am talking about Hamas.

Here is the simple fact Israel puts down their arms and there is another Holocaust. Hamas relinquishes their arms and they have a free independent state.

[ise]

Quote by: shrike Yes of course. What reason Israel have to demolishing houses of innocent civilians?

Are you serious. Innocent or guilty in what court!

IDF operates badly in enclosed spaces. Think of it as road widening for tanks. Recent Israeli administrations are not noted for upholding the law. Upholding laws for non-Jews barely exist.

Unrecognised Villages In The Negev Expose Israel's Apartheid Policies
Justice Minister grilled over sexual harassment charge
Jerusalem Post Updated Jul. 26, 2006 21:19
Lebanon president says Israel uses phosphorous arms
Reuters ...Mon Jul 24 20:02:54 2006
Five more women accuse President Katsav of sexual harassment
Abusive policemen, biased judges
Corruption Looms Large as Israeli Campaign Begins
Not guilty. The Israeli captain who put 17 bullets into a Palestinian schoolgirl

[shrike]

Quote by: ISE Justice Minister grilled over sexual harassment charge Jerusalem Post Updated Jul. 26, 2006 21:19 ive more women accuse President Katsav of sexual harassment Corruption Looms Large as Israeli Campaign Begins

\What it has to with Palestinian problem probably only god and ise know.

[ise]

shrike What it has to with Palestinian problem probably only god and ise know.

The title of the thread is "Why should I take sides..." I'm clearly for the side that is NOT murdering children and unarmed UN peacekeepers. It does not mention your "Palestinian problem".

My point would be that when your current president, your current justice minister, and previous prime minister, a former ambassador to London are all all under investigation for corruption and law breaking, what does that reflect on Israeli society.

When hourly there is an Israeli spokesperson justifying the killing on innocents on our TVs, why should we believe you on the odd occasion that you might be telling the truth. You have cried wolf too often.

Israel is sinking into a strident, nationalistic atmosphere and darkness is beginning to cover everything.

The devastation we are sowing in Lebanon doesn't touch anyone here and most of it is not even shown to Israelis.

If this is true, then it may well be the explanation for why Israeli society can continue to justify its action while the rest of the world is sickened. Only the US has stomach for your inhumanity.

Since we've grown accustomed to thinking collective punishment a legitimate weapon, it is no wonder no debate has sparked here over the cruel punishment of Lebanon for Hezbollah's actions.

Chauvinism and an appetite for vengeance are raising their heads. If two weeks ago only lunatics such as Safed Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu spoke about "wiping out every village where a Katyusha is fired," now a senior officer in the IDF speaks that way in Yedioth Aharonoth's main headlines.

Days of darkness
Sun., July 30, 2006 Av 5, 5766

Shrike, you are misguided and stubborn but sincere. You unfortunately believe what you write, no matter what the evidence to the contrary, but there is no hate in your words, just naivety.

[CENTER]NO AID. NO TRADE.[/CENTER]

[shrike]

Quote by: ise Days of darkness Sun., July 30, 2006 Av 5, 5766

Don't you get tired to leftist propaganda that has no shred of truth in it.

My point would be that when your current president, your current justice minister, and previous prime minister, a former ambassador to London are all all under investigation for corruption and law breaking, what does that reflect on Israeli society

These investigations turned nothing. Are you claiming there were never Irish minister under investigation?
Its just show how strong the rule of law in Israel and we don't afraid investigate our own governments. Not many governments in the world can do the same.

Shrike, you are misguided and stubborn but sincere. You unfortunately believe what you write, no matter what the evidence to the contrary, but there is no hate in your words, just naivety.

Propaganda from fringe leftist sites is not proof.

[ise]

I am genuinely interested in an answer to a request that I put to you.

Days of darkness The devastation we are sowing in Lebanon doesn't touch anyone here and most of it is not even shown to Israelis. ise If this is true, then it may well be the explanation for why Israeli society can continue to justify its action while the rest of the world is sickened. Only the US has stomach for your inhumanity .

When I saw how good a newspaper HAARETZ was, I had assumed that it was read in Israel. I expected them that Israeli were well informed. This does not seem to be the case.

When I made a prediction about the fall of this war government for its lies and bad policies, it was based on an informed public. I may need to revive my prediction in light of this bad news.

[ise]

I may have spoken too soon about the freedom of HAARETZ. The story "Days of darkness" has been spiked!

Fortunately, I keep copies - at least one - of everything that I post. So, I have a number of copies of Gideon Levy's brilliant article. I'll post it if anyone is interested.

Only the extreme left makes its voice heard, but it is a voice nobody listens to. Long before this war is decided, it can already be stated that its spiraling cost will include the moral blackout that is surrounding and covering us all, threatening our existence and image no less than Hezbollah's Katyushas.