Why should I take sides…

[grandpa]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Jewish state = APARTHEID That concept doesn't jive for me with your statement that you don't hate them.

If Israel starts persecuting other groups like South Africa did, then yes--it is similar to Apartheid. There is nothing racist about that statement.
I do not hate Jews. One of my favorite books is Wiesel's "Night." One of my favorite movies is "Invincible." And I have never said or done anything intended to offend any Jewish person (including this thread on Volconvo). So knock it off with your slanderous claims and stick to the subject at hand.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike What it have do with Israel?

Israel is actively persecuting an ethnic minority.

Quote by: shrike You cannot equate Jews with any other religion. Jews are ethno- religious community. And Israel is secular and democratic state. For example I am agnostic and Jew because my ethnicity is Jewish. Almost of the Jews are have middle eastern ancestry as last genetic researches showed the number or converts are very small and meaningless. If you don't accept Jewish right for self identification and determination you are racist all the way IMO.

To identify a state as being Jewish (or Christian, or Muslim, or Atheist) is not secular, and to bulldoze people out of their homes is indeed persecution (and certainly not secular). And, despite your having us believe otherwise, there are Jews who are against Israel's policies as well. So attempts to paint this as my hating Jews are simply absurd.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 How else do you punish a suicide bomber? He is dead. It is an attempt to deter future attacks. Does the bulldozing do this? I don't know. Is it harsh yes! But so is strapping a bomb to your chest and taking out dozens of people. So grandpa it seems you started by not taking a side, but it is clear you have one. Is bulldozing a home worse than blowing up dozens of civilians?

I did not say people should strap bombs to their chests. Here is your tactic: If I don't constantly mention the crime sof all sides at all times, it means I take the other side. So if I ellaborate on Israel's crimes, it must mean I endorse the crimes of another side. It's an absurd tactic that ignores the entire point of this thread, but you can pretend it's honest if you want.

The point was illustrated quite well by you: The idea of punishing suicide bombers is absurd. But yet even more absurd is punishing the general population of Palestinians, which you admit is harsh as you shrug your shoulders.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Yep you neutral. lololol But you call them apartheid. Have you seem the Arab world, how segragted are they. A sizable minority of Israel is of Arab and non-jewish background.

You may laugh, but indicate where my neutrality is in question--find a single place where I have have supported hezbollah. I have stated that perhaps Palestinians and Israelis may end up having to have separate states, but that is not really what I think is a solution.

Grandpa h.

[shrike]

Quote by: grandpa Israel is actively persecuting an ethnic minority.

Israel is not persecuting anyone. The Arabs that live in Israel have full democratic rites there is 3 Arab Parties in Israeli Parliament

To identify a state as being Jewish is not secular,

Of course it is .Zionism mostly is secular movement. It's raised up in 19th century a many other national movements.

and to bulldoze people out of their homes is indeed persecution (and certainly not secular).

First of all the practice is already stopped and it have nothing with religion. The houses that were demolished were owned by terrorist. What it have to do with religion I don't know.

And, despite your having us believe otherwise, there are Jews who are against Israel's policies as well.

Orange and apples my friend cruising Israel as any other country in the world is absolutely acceptable. For example I criticize my government for committing ethnic cleansing in Gaza and turning it Judenfrei ..But being against the Jewish right for self determination is defiantly a racist practice.

So attempts to paint this as my hating Jews are simply absurd.

If you being against existence of Jewish state you are. There is no way around. If you against the existence of Italia you against Italians.

[Mia]

First of all the practice is already stopped and it have nothing with religion. The houses that were demolished were owned by terrorist. What it have to do with religion I don't know.

You have to be kidding. You don't really proclaim that all the houses demolished belonged to terrorists?

[Trotsky]

Quote by: Mia You have to be kidding. You don't really proclaim that all the houses demolished belonged to terrorists?

He actually does, Mia, leave it my dear, it will only hurt you're brain.

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike Israel is not persecuting anyone. The Arabs that live in Israel have full democratic rites there is 3 Arab Parties in Israeli Parliament

Really? Just because a country has a parliament it means some group is not being persecuted?

Quote by: shrike Of course it is .Zionism mostly is secular movement. It's raised up in 19th century a many other national movements.

If you say so.

Quote by: shrike First of all the practice is already stopped and it have nothing with religion. The houses that were demolished were owned by terrorist. What it have to do with religion I don't know.

Really? So ethnic/religious differences have nothing to do with Israel's policies of singling out Palestinians?

Quote by: shrike For example I criticize my government for committing ethnic cleansing in Gaza and turning it Judenfrei ..But being against the Jewish right for self determination is defiantly a racist practice.

If by "self-determination" you mean declaring a "zionist" state and expelling other groups, then yes, I oppose that...just like I oppose creating a Christian/white state or an Arab/Muslim state--especially if it begins attacking others.

Quote by: shrike If you being against existence of Jewish state you are. There is no way around. If you against the existence of Italia you against Italians.

If Italy begins persecuting other groups, I will be opposed to it as well.

Grandpa h.

[ise]

GHook93 #39 ise War a good thing?. No it is a horrible thing, yet your people are keeping it going, but blame it on the opposition.

Who is this "your people" that " are keeping it going". I'm from the peaceful island of Ireland. Then "blame it on the opposition", what are you on about or what are you on?

GHook93 #39 ise Business ceases in northern Israel. Microsoft pull out. No more plum business in future in Israel. Loss of tourists is the least of their worries. No shit they have to worry about hypocrite Arabs with your similar mentality blowing themselves up in their business.

I'm sure you know what you meant to say. Maybe you would restate it clearly.

GHook93 #39 ise Those with money realise that a 20' 30' WALL will not stop rockets. They get out too. No shit that is why they are attacking them instead, but it will stop illegal border crossing and some of your boys from bring bombs in to blow up civilians.

Is this meant to make sense? "some of your boys from bring bombs" You are not an illegal alien or maybe masquerading as one.

GHook93 #39 ise Why should Hezbollah give up after Bush's week? Ever dead civilian is another nail in Israel. As long as Hezbollah continues to beat the crap out of the IDF, the civilians will suffer and endure. Please!!!!!! Have you not read all the bad PR Hezbollah is getting. Not only with Europe, but from Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and other Arab countries. Ise not even you can believe Hezbollah is beating the IDF.

In Ireland we DO get free uncensored data and we DO know who is getting the bad publicity. You really should not believe all you read in your foreign owned newspapers.

GHook93 #39 ise Have WALLS ever worked. Not long ago their were two Germany states - enemies. Normal states talk with their enemies - not kill civilians. Poor point. The wall in East Germany was too trap the East German People in, not to protect it against the West. This was a prison! What Israel is rightfully putting up is a fortress for protection.

Yes, it may be mote as to which side of the WALL the prisoners are in the long term.

GHook93 #39 ise So shedding blood in war is NEVER a good thing, even if it is only enemy civilians blood, a war crime in itself. That is right. You Arabs need to read books on Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. These were probably the two greatest men in history. They created change without the mindless killing your people do. You can't justify the killing of civilians, anymore than the IDF can.

I'm sure you meant Gandhi. I'm not an Arab, but I would not be ashamed to be one. "Probably the two greatest men in history". Don't think so. History is longer than 100 years. In my time - Nelson Mandela. An American - Bill Clinton. And the intellectual fool you have now - definitely your standard of guy alright.

This has been an intellectually boring and pointless discussion. So, if you don't mind, for my peace of mind, I'll be utilising the intellectual boycott (the non-buddy list) and so I'll not be reading any future posts from you. Good bye.

[ise]

Quote by: Mia There are a lot of people saying war is a good thing right now to wipe of Hezbollah once and for all.

Sounds like you are comfortable with some man doing your thinking for you.

Worse, you seem comfortable with what they/he decided. Any thoughts of your own?

Are you saying "war is a good thing right now to wipe of Hezbollah once and for all"?

[Mia]

Quote by: Trotsky He actually does, Mia, leave it my dear, it will only hurt you're brain.

It IS hurting my brain to read some of this - how did you know?

It's secular to have a Jewish state? Huh?

[Mia]

Quote by: ise Sounds like you are comfortable with some man doing your thinking for you. Worse, you seem comfortable with what they/he decided. Any thoughts of your own? Are you saying "war is a good thing right now to wipe of Hezbollah once and for all"?

Once again, assuming things not stated. Merely commenting on what is all over the media.

I have expressed many thoughts of my own. I have argued in the Israel, et al threads too many times to continue to over and over every time they are brought up, so I limit my comments in these new ones.

Do you support Hezbollah?

[Jack]

If all humans cannot learn to overcome 2000+ year old prejudices and hatreds and begin to live at peace with one another and in harmony with the planet, perhaps mankind does not deserve to evolve. Perhaps mankind does not even deserve to exist. If we're going to destroy ourselves for the nonsensical reasons we use these days to go to war, let's at least do so in a way that leaves the rest of the planet to those species who aren't involved in our insanity.

[GHook93]

Quote by: ise This has been an intellectually boring and pointless discussion. So, if you don't mind, for my peace of mind, I'll be utilising the intellectual boycott (the non-buddy list) and so I'll not be reading any future posts from you. Good bye.

My feelings are hurt. Now I won't get a chance to hear the irrogant, ignorant crap that you post from islamic fundmentalist websites as your support. Man I'm missing a lot.

[Jack]

If you wish to insult instead of debate, perhaps you should stick to real words instead of "irrogant". You might not sound so silly.

[shrike]

Quote by: grandpa Really? Just because a country has a parliament it means some group is not being persecuted?

But these group is part of the parlement so how its persucuted?

Really? So ethnic/religious differences have nothing to do with Israel's policies of singling out Palestinians

Israel is not singling out the Palestinians. Arabs that live in Israel are full citizens of the state and can do whatever they want.

If by "self-determination" you mean declaring a "zionist" state and expelling other groups, then yes, I oppose that...just like I oppose creating a Christian/white state or an Arab/Muslim state--especially if it begins attacking others.

What Zionism have to do with "expelling other groups"?
There is already about 20 such Arab states here is an example. Real apartheid:

If Italy begins persecuting other groups, I will be opposed to it as well.

The thing it that you oppose Jewish state because it's the Jewish right?

[Mia]

shrike, Palestinians are not Arab Israelites. You know everyone means Arabs in the occupied territories.

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike But these group is part of the parlement so how its persucuted?

How are they not being persecuted?

Quote by: shrike Israel is not singling out the Palestinians. Arabs that live in Israel are full citizens of the state and can do whatever they want.

Why is it the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, then?

Quote by: shrike What Zionism have to do with "expelling other groups"? There is already about 20 such Arab states here is an example. Real apartheid:

And I've said I'm against any Muslim states, or Christian states or Jewish states--and rightfully so. If you are too ignorant to take into account what I've said, then that's your problem.
If the Israeli government is bulldozing people's homes and erecting huge walls against a group of people, that is exclusion, and I oppose it.

Quote by: shrike The thing it that you oppose Jewish state because it's the Jewish right?

I'm getting really tired of this horeshit. I've explained about 5 times now I have nothing against Jews. In fact, the very topic of this thread is how I haven't taken sides, whereas you clearly have. So please start discussing the issue in an honest way and deal with what I've actually said (repeatedly, mind you).

Grandpa h.

[PatrickHenry]

How about taking the underdog's side against a vicious military repression/occupation?

I don't mean taking up arms. Just pointing at aggression and saying "That's wrong!"

[ise]

Quote by: Mia Once again, assuming things not stated. Merely commenting on what is all over the media. I have expressed many thoughts of my own. I have argued in the Israel, et al threads too many times to continue to over and over every time they are brought up, so I limit my comments in these new ones. Do you support Hezbollah?

Support how? Mentally, physically. Irish troops died guarding Israel's northern border mainly killed by IDF and it's surrogate.

Are you Jewish. Which flag has your allegiance. Which army do your kin fight in. Would you sell out American secrets. Evidence is that the Jews do not give their first loyalties to their native country.

May be all those millions and millions of people from every nation on earth over many centuries, who did not trust the Jews had good reason. They were all wrong? Personally, I liked the few Jews that I've met. I know NO Arabs. Why do Jews HATE Arabs.

I'm against Irish troops again guarding Israel's northern border.

[CENTER]Missing photos [/CENTER]