Why should I take sides…

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: Matt W I'm guessing, GBA, that you have no knowledge at all of the history & society of Afghanistan. They've lost straight-up fights, for sure, but ever time someone tries to foist a puppet government on them, they'll beat them in the end - and these have been occupiers with far fewer morals than what we're supposed to have.

Correct, which is why the President let them run their own candidates and we had all those purple fingers voting for the first time ever.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica We did have WW1 & WW2 before 1948 and because war is good if done full out, there were victories and the terms of that peace were dictated by those that won. To my knowledge those terms have been pretty much holding to this day.

if you bothered to look, you might see the idea if a Jewish state as something akin to Apartheid. Good stuff doe snot come out of such a government. And I don't see how any kind of peace can continue when people are being bulldozed out of their homes and shot at.
So terrorism is coming from all sides in this conflict with remarkable consistency.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Correct, which is why the President let them run their own candidates and we had all those purple fingers voting for the first time ever.

Voting in elections thousands of Iraqis had to protest to get.
(As if elections accomplish much, anyway).

Look, if we need to put order into the country, we don't do it by adding to the chaos.
In this case, we'd do it by leaving (which many Iraqis want, anyway).

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

I'd like to see your take on these articles, GBA. Do any of these articles show things are improving, or will likely improve anytime soon? Even more important, do any of these articles imply your view that the US is not implicitly involved in these situations (which I believe you bizarrely suggested before, even calling it "America bashing" to point out the incredibly obvious)?

Catastrophe Looms in Lebanon:
"BEIRUT (AFP) - The United Nations warned of a humanitarian "catastrophe" in Lebanon as Israel launched more deadly air attacks on the seventh day of an assault that has killed at least 245 and displaced half a million people."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060718...t_060718192710

Rice Will Go to Mideast When 'Appropriate':
"Washington - US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Tuesday she will travel to the Middle East seeking to resolve the crisis between Israel and Lebanon when it is 'appropriate.'"
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/m...en_appropriate

Israel Capable of Air Strike on Iran:
"Israel is in the best position militarily in its history to mount air strikes against Iran, after a decade of buying U.S.-produced long-range aircraft, penetrating bombs and aerial refueling tankers."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...5737-9603r.htm

Grandpa h.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: grandpa if you bothered to look, you might see the idea if a Jewish state as something akin to Apartheid. Grandpa h.

I don't know why you seem to hate Jews, but they have been Middle East forever, though many have had to flee around the world because so many have tried to exterminate them.

[shrike]

Quote by: grandpa if you bothered to look, you might see the idea if a Jewish state as something akin to Apartheid. Good stuff doe snot come out of such a government. And I don't see how any kind of peace can continue when people are being bulldozed out of their homes and shot at. So terrorism is coming from all sides in this conflict with remarkable consistency. Grandpa h.

Do you think that Irish[Insert any other nationality here] state as something akin to Apartheid?

[grandpa]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica I don't know why you seem to hate Jews, but they have been Middle East forever, though many have had to flee around the world because so many have tried to exterminate them.

I haven't said a single thing against Jews. I know you are too ignorant to know this, but there are actually Jews who are against the occupation.
I don't have shit for brains, so I reject Israel's tyrannical policies AND Hezbollahs campaigns of terror (which I've said about a thousand times here before, and which is what this very thread I started is about).

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike Do you think that Irish[Insert any other nationality here] state as something akin to Apartheid?

If Ireland starts persecuting other races and religions, then yes---that would be akin to Apartheid.

Irish people have actually been subject to British persecution over a period of many years, which many people opposed correctly. Does that necessarily mean they hated anyone of English descent or did it sometimes mean actually opposing unfair policies?

The lesson should be learned: You push people around and you may just get pushed back. In cases of longstanding conflict, the best way to solve things is negotiation. There is nothing about this position that suggests I hate Jews. I am secular, which means I am against a Christian state, a Jewish state or an Islamic state. I don't know how much clearer I can make myself.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Here is another article on the campaign GBA so strongly endorses:

Israel Bombs Christian Area of Beirut:
"Beirut, 19 July (AKI) - Israeli warplanes targeted for the first time a Christian area of eastern Beirut on Wednesday morning. No one was reportedly injured in the attack. Two trucks were hit near the department store 'Abc' in the heart of the Ashrafiyah neighbourhood. The two vehicles were however not reportedly transporting missiles as initially thought. Residents panicked and took to the streets after the raid. "We aren't safe here anymore," Ratiba Naaman told Adnkronos International (AKI)."
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_En...322578407&par=

Grandpa h.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: grandpa Quote by: GodBlessAmerica I don't know why you seem to hate Jews, but they have been Middle East forever, though many have had to flee around the world because so many have tried to exterminate them. I haven't said a single thing against Jews. I know you are too ignorant to know this, but there are actually Jews who are against the occupation. I don't have shit for brains, so I reject Israel's tyrannical policies AND Hezbollahs campaigns of terror (which I've said about a thousand times here before, and which is what this very thread I started is about). Grandpa h.

Jewish state = APARTHEID

That concept doesn't jive for me with your statement that you don't hate them.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: grandpa Here is another article on the campaign GBA so strongly endorses: Israel Bombs Christian Area of Beirut:

And Hezbollah targeted Christian Holy sites with their missiles it seems as a message to the west.
The Jewish people were taking note of that this morning.

[shrike]

[

Quote by: granpa If Ireland starts persecuting other races and religions, then yes---that would be akin to Apartheid

What it have do with Israel?

There is nothing about this position that suggests I hate Jews. I am secular, which means I am against a Christian state, a Jewish state or an Islamic state. I don't know how much clearer I can make myself

You cannot equate Jews with any other religion. Jews are ethno- religious community. And Israel is secular and democratic state. For example I am agnostic and Jew because my ethnicity is Jewish. Almost of the Jews are have middle eastern ancestry as last genetic researches showed the number or converts are very small and meaningless.
If you don't accept Jewish right for self identification and determination you are racist all the way IMO.

[shrike]

In 2005, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) of European Union, tried to define more clearly the relationship between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. The EUMC developed a working definition of anti-Semitism that defined ways in which attacking Israel or Zionism could be anti-Semitic. The definition states: Examples of the ways in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include: Denying the Jewish people right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_anti-Semitism
http://eumc.eu.int/eumc/material/pub...tion-draft.pdf

[ise]

Quote by: Mia There are a lot of people saying war is a good thing right now to wipe of Hezbollah once and for all.

War a good thing?

Does this infer support for war per se or support for war to wipe out Hezbollah.

So Bush encourages another week of bombing innocent civilians. As a lesson? Revenge?

Business ceases in northern Israel. Microsoft pull out. No more plum business in future in Israel. Loss of tourists is the least of their worries.

Those with money realise that a 20' 30' WALL will not stop rockets. They get out too.

Why should Hezbollah give up after Bush's week? Ever dead civilian is another nail in Israel. As long as Hezbollah continues to beat the crap out of the IDF, the civilians will suffer and endure.

Have WALLS ever worked. Not long ago their were two Germany states - enemies. Normal states talk with their enemies - not kill civilians.

So shedding blood in war is NEVER a good thing, even if it is only enemy civilians blood, a war crime in itself.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Trotsky Grandpa, he's not gonna engage in real debate. He is a religious bigot who will dismiss anything he deosn't agree with as lies and propaganda. I mean god forbid that somebody should point out the IDF doing wrong or a Muslim doing good or the US interferring in the doemstic politics of soverign nations, cause that doesn't happen at all and we should all hand our heads in shame for suggesting such things. I mean we all know that the Muslims have contributed absolutely nothing to mankind whatsoever, that the Muslims were the ones who forced the Jews to leave the province of Palestine in 67 AD, and that they then got down to the buisness of killing each other, something that was only interrupted when the Crusades came to liberate the Holy Land and save the poor persecuted Jews from the evil worshippers of Allah. And now that the West has helped the Jews to return to the Holy Land the Muslims are now killing the Jews again as well as killing each other. I mean Granpa, you should know by now that history is being taught all wrong and that GBA is one of the few people in the world who know the truth.

Any your so knowledgable smart. The Roman's ousted everyone. Do you recall that little thing of resurrection. The Ottman Empire ruled the area for while, why not give the whole middle east back to them. In fact the whole middle east was craved into pieces by the west, so why should Israel be any different.

And do you really think the Arabs give two shits about the Palestinians? Why does Syria, Lebannon, Jordan and all these Hypocrit Arab countries keep the Palestinians is refugee camps or prisons might be a better term. They could let them assimilate into their cultures and then return to Palestine if/when they have their own country. Because its about hating the Jews. In fact right after the conflict in '48 Jordan occupied the West Bank and claimed it as part of Jordan and Egypt claimed Gaza as part of Egypt. Why did they do this, because they give two shit about the Palestinian struggle?

Is Israel only a victim in this and not a perputator, absolutely not. Should there be a Palestinian state. But the Pro-palestine and Arab view by this board is sickening. These people aren't freedom fighter by any stretch of the imagination. Targeting civilians is not a just cause. Demanding a country bargain with you, when you refuse to recognize their right to exist and are determined to destroy them is not only ignorant by an impossible request.

[GHook93]

Well put

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Israel has a huge history since ancient times in the Middle East, but between their own rule and getting overrun by others, things kept changing and many had to flee for their lives throughout the world throughout history: The different boundaries for Israel are pretty much based on the following in history. Ancient Maps The Kingdom of David and Solomon (1077-997 BCE) The Herodian Period (30 BCE to 70 CE) Jews in the Land of Israel (7th-11th Centuries) Pre-State Maps Setting the Southern Border (1906) Setting the Northern Border (1916-1923) British Mandate Separation of Transjordan (1922) UN Partition Plan (1947) Israel's Changing Borders 1949-1967 Armistice Lines (1949-1967) The Frontier with Syria Armistice Agreement with Jordan (1949) Jewish Communities Lost in the War of Independence Jerusalem Before the Six Day War (1949-1967) June 1967 - Six Day War Events leading to the Six Day War (1967) Israel After the Six Day War (June 10, 1967) Jerusalem After the Six Day War (1967) Old City of Jerusalem October 1973 - Yom Kippur War Yom Kippur War Cease-Fire Lines (October 24, 1973) Golan Heights Cease-Fire Lines (October 1973) Israel-Syria Disengagement Agreement (May 1974) Peace with Egypt Interim Agreement with Egypt (1975) Peace Treaty with Egypt and Sinai Redeployment (1980-1982) Disengagement from the territories Israel's Disengagement Plan (2005) Israel itself was not a MODERN official nation/state again in the world until May 14th, 1948. The people had to fight a War of Independence from (May 1948-July 1949). In addition, here is a partial Middle East time-line for you that can explain for you when various places gained their independence, boundaries and so forth. Brief Middle Eastern History Time-line for PH Again, this is basic history. It has always been tribal and they have always been killing each other over there in the name of their gods. A Link To Some Middle Eastern Tribal History to Educate the not real PatrickHenry You can also check out modern day activities of the Islamic types on a regular basis and can go back to 2003 with their Archives Keep an Eye on Radical Islam Now I don't know if you are a libertarian, but based on the borrowing the name of a Patriot, your tendency to insult everyone and talk like you know something I am guessing you are. Libertarians for me are kind of strange breed. They want almost no government to the point IMO of anarchy. Yet they seem to be big social liberals from what I read who seem to like the backing of most vices, open borders and of course their sacrament of recreational drugs. Don't mind if I don't respond to every request for evidence (which is all a Libertarian can do all the time), because you should in my opinion LOOK STUFF UP yourself regarding common knowledge.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Matt W I'm guessing, GBA, that you have no knowledge at all of the history & society of Afghanistan. They've lost straight-up fights, for sure, but ever time someone tries to foist a puppet government on them, they'll beat them in the end - and these have been occupiers with far fewer morals than what we're supposed to have.

True but if it wasn't for America arming them with anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons, they would be speaking Russian. That's a fact.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa if you bothered to look, you might see the idea if a Jewish state as something akin to Apartheid. Good stuff doe snot come out of such a government. And I don't see how any kind of peace can continue when people are being bulldozed out of their homes and shot at. So terrorism is coming from all sides in this conflict with remarkable consistency. Grandpa h.

How else do you punish a suicide bomber? He is dead. It is an attempt to deter future attacks. Does the bulldozing do this? I don't know. Is it harsh yes! But so is strapping a bomb to your chest and taking out dozens of people.

So grandpa it seems you started by not taking a side, but it is clear you have one. Is bulldozing a home worse than blowing up dozens of civilians?

[GHook93]

Quote by: ise War a good thing?.

No it is a horrible thing, yet your people are keeping it going, but blame it on the opposition.

Quote by: ise Business ceases in northern Israel. Microsoft pull out. No more plum business in future in Israel. Loss of tourists is the least of their worries.

No shit they have to worry about hyprocrit Arabs with your similar mentality blowing themselves up in their business.

Quote by: ise Those with money realise that a 20' 30' WALL will not stop rockets. They get out too.

No shit that is why they are attacking them instead, but it will stop illegal border crossing and some of your boys from bring bombs in to blow up civilians.

Quote by: ise Why should Hezbollah give up after Bush's week? Ever dead civilian is another nail in Israel. As long as Hezbollah continues to beat the crap out of the IDF, the civilians will suffer and endure.

Please!!!!!! Have you not read all the bad PR Hezbollah is getting. Not only with Europe, but from Sudia Arabia, Lebannon and other Arab countries. Ise not even you can believe Hezbollah is beating the IDF.

Quote by: ise Have WALLS ever worked. Not long ago their were two Germany states - enemies. Normal states talk with their enemies - not kill civilians.

Poor point. The wall in East Germany was too trap the East German People in, not to protect it against the West. This was a prison! What Israel is rightfully putting up is a fortress for protection.

Quote by: ise So shedding blood in war is NEVER a good thing, even if it is only enemy civilians blood, a war crime in itself.

That is right. You Arabs need to read books on Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. These were probably the two greatest men in history. They created change without the mindless killing your people do. You can't justify the killing of civlians, anymore than the IDF can.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa If Ireland starts persecuting other races and religions, then yes---that would be akin to Apartheid. Irish people have actually been subject to British persecution over a period of many years, which many people opposed correctly. Does that necessarily mean they hated anyone of English descent or did it sometimes mean actually opposing unfair policies? The lesson should be learned: You push people around and you may just get pushed back. In cases of longstanding conflict, the best way to solve things is negotiation. There is nothing about this position that suggests I hate Jews. I am secular, which means I am against a Christian state, a Jewish state or an Islamic state. I don't know how much clearer I can make myself. Grandpa h.

Yep you neutral. lololol But you call them apartheid. Have you seem the Arab world, how segragted are they. A sizable minority of Israel is of Arab and non-jewish background.