Why should I take sides…

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa Again, the loss of civilian lives is an argument against war, especially when it's war against a largely defenseless population who you generally condemn as "terrorists." If Israel continues its efforts, the numbers of genuine terrorists is likely to grow. Grandpa h.

OK, but you constantly JUSTIFY (Not directly, but still do), Hamas, Hezbollah and the other terrorist groups attacks! Civilian losses are regrettable no doubt, but what are they supposed to do. Call them big meanies! :rolleyes:

If they did nothing that would without a doubt increase terrorist acts 10x!

[Atlas]

quote by bob60292 :

Israel is an Anglo-American colony beholden to wealthy subversive, shadow elitists in the US and England.

bob ... There's only one thing missing from your psychedelic theory there, FACTS.

Europeans and their descendants who share Jewish beliefs and traditions are entitled to believe whastever they want to.; They can worship their navals for all I care at this point. but that does not give them the right to rule, or to steel land away from the Palestinian people who have not only religious ties, but also semitic, ethical, hereditary, and genetic ties to it.. As far as asking the Rabbi is concerned, I can assure you there is no need for that. Even the idea that being born of a Jewish woman makes a person Jewish is a nonsensicle myth. I suppose the fathers genes can't be Jewish genes, but the mother's can? Atlas, I don't want to put wood in the fire here, but __Get real. If the Rabbi is nutty enough to believe this nonsense more power to him; God bless him. May he find all the joy and self esteem he requires.Perhaps this gives him a sense of identity after a heritage of roaming around from country to country; but I wasn't born yesterday; and although I may have been born at night it wasn't last night. Let's not burst the Rabbi's bubble, but if even he himself were not a believer in Judaism he would be as Jewish as my rotweiler. At least my rotweiler can probably be traced as a species to the ancient Romans, although this would not be an excuse to displace the Italians in Rome with rotwweilers.

I thought about replying to this thread with one word - Idiot...

But I believe not all is lost in delusional people like you, and they can eventually accept reality as it is, any Rabbi in the world will tell the exact same thing:

Am I Jewish? How is Jewish Identity Determined?

Jewish identity is passed on via the mother. If the mother is Jewish, the child is 100% Jewish. This is true regardless of who the father is, and whether he is Jewish or not, and regardless of whether the Jewish mother practiced another religion. That is the unwavering rule. At the same time, if someone's father is Jewish (but not the mother), then the child is 100% NOT Jewish. Jewish identity passed on through the mother has been universally accepted by Jews for 3,000 years, and was decided by God, as recorded in the Five Books of Moses in Deut. 7:3-4. The Talmud (Kiddushin 68b) explains how this law is evident from those passages. According to Jewish law, this will remain the person's status forever. There is no way one can lose his status as a Jew even if he thinks he has gone so far as to convert to another religion! Therefore, if your mother's mother's mother was Jewish, then you would also be considered Jewish. However, because of the complexity of your situation, you will need to bring proof that your mother's mother's mother (or her daughter, granddaughter etc.) was Jewish. Proof may include birth certificates, gravestones, etc. Assuming this is too far back for you to go, then your status remains as a non- Jew.

What is the source of the law that a child is Jewish only if its mother is Jewish?

The statement that Jewish identity is determined by the mother is found in the Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12), which says that the child of a gentile woman is like her. The Talmud derives this from the passage in Deut. 7:3-4: "Do not intermarry with [him], do not give your daughter to his son or take his daughter for your son, for he will turn your son from Me": A child born to your daughter (fathered by a non-Jew) is called "your son", but a child born to your son (by a non-Jewish mother) is not called "your son", but "her son". The Talmud is assuming here that the "he" in Deut.7:4 is your gentile son-in-law, and that "your son" whom "he" will turn away from G-d is your grandson, born to him and to your daughter. The Torah calls that grandson "your son" because he is regarded as Jewish since he had a Jewish mother. In the other case, where a Jewish man marries a gentile woman, the Torah doesn't speak about the woman's influence on her children (i.e., it doesn't say "for she will turn your son from me"), because her children are non-Jewish to begin with since their mother is non-Jewish. Apparently we are more concerned about the influence of a non-Jewish spouse on the children than about the influence of a non-Jewish spouse's parents on their children-in-law. The Talmud (Kiddushin 68b) asks how we know that these laws apply to any non-Jews, since the cited verse refers to the Canaanites. The answer given there is that "he will turn your son [away from Me]" implies that all those who might turn [sons] away are included in the prohibition.

It's true that this is a weird custom judging only by the mother side, but hey, that and a dozen of other religious customs through out the world, fact remains, the Jewish faith is for Jews by blood therefore ethnically Jews, I'm not saying that there are no exceptions, but that Law is mainly obeyed by any religious Jew through out the world.

Your claim that Jews are merely European nationals who accepted Judaism is pure bogus, much as your colony theory, unsupported by any facts, unless you change that fact...

[bob60292]

Quote by: Atlas quote by bob60292 : bob ... There's only one thing missing from your psychedelic theory there, FACTS. I thought about replying to this thread with one word - Idiot... But I believe not all is lost in delusional people like you, and they can eventually accept reality as it is, any Rabbi in the world will tell the exact same thing: Am I Jewish? How is Jewish Identity Determined? What is the source of the law that a child is Jewish only if its mother is Jewish? It's true that this is a weird custom judging only by the mother side, but hey, that and a dozen of other religious customs through out the world, fact remains, the Jewish faith is for Jews by blood therefore ethnically Jews, I'm not saying that there are no exceptions, but that Law is mainly obeyed by any religious Jew through out the world. Your claim that Jews are merely European nationals who accepted Judaism is pure bogus, much as your colony theory, unsupported by any facts, unless you change that fact...

Atlas,I thought about replying to your thread, m_ _ _ _, but that would have been to mild and inappropriate for this forum. I will not stoop to the level of calling you a ______, just because you called me an idiot. So have a nice life and _ _ _ _ k _ _ u.
You have resorted to name calling. I am not the idiot and even if I were it is not proper for you to spreak to me in such a fashon From here on I will refrain from talking to you and/or Fascist Zionists who can't seem to control their anger.
Have a great life. Try not to hurt too many people.

[Atlas]

Quote by: bob60292 Atlas I thought about replying to your thread, moron, but that would have been to mild for people like you. So have a nice like and F_ _ _ k You. You have resorted to name calling. I am not the idiot, you are; and from here on I will refrain from talking to idiots and Fascist Zionists

I never said that you where an Idiot, I specifically said I was very tempted to do that because of your ignorant opinions, eventually I succumbed to the ways of reason and answered every argument you presented, not the same thing can be said about your anger management capabilities though, I can see 4 direct offenses from you there, guess there is no point of explaining reality to people such as yourself, then again, I am a reasonable man, and you can prove me wrong on that one.

[bob60292]

Quote by: Atlas I never said that you where an Idiot, I specifically said I was very tempted to do that because of your ignorant opinions, eventually I succumbed to the ways of reason and answered every argument you presented, not the same thing can be said about your anger management capabilities though, I can see 4 direct offenses from you there, guess there is no point of explaining reality to people such as yourself, then again, I am a reasonable man, and you can prove me wrong on that one.

I have already proved you wrong on everything you have said.
As far as anger management is concerned I have one last comment, hopefully.
You are the one who conjured up the word idiot, not me, Perhaps you should get some counseling for anger management. I simply basically repeated what you said substituting one word for another and bounced it back to you. If you don't want to be offended, than make an effort not to oefend others. "What's good for the goose is good for the gander"
" Let he who has never sinned throw the first stone". That disqualifies you

[Atlas]

Quote by: bob60292 I have already proved you wrong on everything you have said.

Right... I hope the readers of those posts will judge that.

Quote by: bob60292 As far as anger management is concerned I have one last comment, hopefully. You are the one who conjured up the word idiot, not me, Perhaps you should get some counseling for anger management.

May be true, but I also state that it is a word I'm avoiding to keep the debate argumentative.

Quote by: bob60292 I simply basically repeated what you said substituting one word for another and bounced it back to you.

Quote by: bob60292 m_ _ _ _, ______, _ _ _ _ k _ _ u,Fascist

Nice Job editing your reply, by the way, too bad you can't edit my previous quote of your words, but I know that not a single one of those words are a substitute for "Idiot" even if you think it was directly applied to you.

Quote by: bob60292 If you don't want to be offended, than make an effort not to oefend others. "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" " Let he who has never sinned throw the first stone". That disqualifies you

You condemn me for simply replying to your message, giving you a counter-argument, nice for you, again, I never said you are an idiot, unlike your comments about me.

Even the Nazi's acknowledged that Jews are an ethnically entity, a nation on its own, yet you continue to deny it, I just hope you wouldn't accuse me of saying you are a Nazi on that one, because I'm not.

[bob60292]

Quote by: Atlas Right... I hope the readers of those posts will judge that. May be true, but I also state that it is a word I'm avoiding to keep the debate argumentative. Nice Job editing your reply, by the way, but I know that not a single one of those words are a substitute for "Idiot" even if you think it was directly applied to you. You condemn me for simply replying to your message, giving you a counter-argument, nice for you, again, I never said you are an idiot, unlike your comments about me. Even the Nazi's acknowledged that Jews are an ethnically entity, a nation on its own, yet you continue to deny it, I just hope you wouldn't accuse me of saying you are a Nazi on that one, because I'm not.

The Nazi's called Hitler an Aryan too. There is no such thing as an Aryan. Aryan is a language group, not an ethnic group; and even if it were, Hitler didn't fit the description.
And now you want to use the Nazi's to justify your claim. God help us!!!!!
Hitler saw a group of people who identified with their own Talmudic beliefs of separation and double standards for Jews and Non Jews. He was evil and ruthless; he should never have been allowed to occupy a position of power; or to persecute Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, christians who did not agree with him, or anyone else; but his genius was in political evil, not ethnicity.
My problem, however, is not with European Jews. They are entitled to worship anything they want to. They can worship their left nipples for all I care. My problem is with the phony linkage of a conglomerate of otherwise respectable people who originated somewhere between the Ural Mountains and the Volga, migrated all over Europe, and them claimed genetic linkage to the ancient Hebrews. This falacy has produced the Zionist Fascist policy of orchestrating events to displace, kill, and subjugate innocent Palestinian people; as well as many good people of the Jewish faith who have been brainwashed into accepting an identity that is not their own. We are dealing with the traditions of Jews, not genetic linkage to a darker skinned persecuted semetic race such as the Palestinians or the ancient Hebrews.
No offense but you are using a deceptive pretext to commit a grave injustice on people who weren't responsible for the European holocaust. I think the words of Moses in the 21st century apply more to the Palestinians than to Jews or Zionists "Let My people go".--and this doesn't mean displacement

[bob60292]

Quote by: Atlas quote by bob60292 : bob ... There's only one thing missing from your psychedelic theory there, FACTS. I thought about replying to this thread with one word - Idiot... But I believe not all is lost in delusional people like you, and they can eventually accept reality as it is, any Rabbi in the world will tell the exact same thing: Am I Jewish? How is Jewish Identity Determined? What is the source of the law that a child is Jewish only if its mother is Jewish? It's true that this is a weird custom judging only by the mother side, but hey, that and a dozen of other religious customs through out the world, fact remains, the Jewish faith is for Jews by blood therefore ethnically Jews, I'm not saying that there are no exceptions, but that Law is mainly obeyed by any religious Jew through out the world. Your claim that Jews are merely European nationals who accepted Judaism is pure bogus, much as your colony theory, unsupported by any facts, unless you change that fact...

There you go!!!! When I went to school i- d- i- o- t spelled IDIOT, and that's what you called me. Have they changed the spelling, buddy? Oh my!!!!
You have commited a violation of the rules; but lets let bygones be bygones> I forgive your offensive characterization of me even without an apology.

If you were referring to my" psychodelic" theory you might have said idiotic; but idiot was a noun and gramatically had to be refering to me. Shame on you, Atlas

[ise]

Quote by: bob60292 The Nazi's called Hitler an Aryan too. There is no such thing as an Aryan. Aryan is a language group, not an ethnic group; and even if it were, Hitler didn't fit the description.

True.

Aryan
is an English language word derived from the Iranian and Sanskrit terms ari-, arya-, ārya-, and/or the extended form aryāna-. Beyond its use as the ethnic self-designation of the Proto-Indo-Iranians, the meaning "noble/spiritual" has been attached to it in Persian and Sanskrit.

In linguistics, it is sometimes still used in reference to the Indo-Iranian language family, but it is primarily restricted to the compound Indo-Aryan, the Indic subgroup of the Indo-Iranian branch.
...Wikipedia

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: ise True. Aryan is an English language word derived from the Iranian and Sanskrit terms ari-, arya-, ārya-, and/or the extended form aryāna-. Beyond its use as the ethnic self-designation of the Proto-Indo-Iranians, the meaning "noble/spiritual" has been attached to it in Persian and Sanskrit. In linguistics, it is sometimes still used in reference to the Indo-Iranian language family, but it is primarily restricted to the compound Indo-Aryan, the Indic subgroup of the Indo-Iranian branch. ...Wikipedia

Boy, when the skinheads get word that their favorite word is based on Middle Eastern languages they're gonna go nuts.

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike Again you don't propose any alternative solutions. Israel government obligation is to protect its own citizens.

You keep lying. I have indeed offered solutions. Israel should genuinely stop their occupation (all so-called withdrawls have actually been expansion plans).
I've suggested Israel stop terrorism Palestinians and offer reparations for damages they have indeed inflicted (including the cutting off of humanitarian aide).

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 What entire population you are punishing suicide bombers, who coincidence are doing exactly what you are condeming - Punish the entire population for the crimes of a few! :rolleyes: Get your argument straight!

You need to learn the difference between facts and polemics.
I've never said or even implied that suicide bombers are a good thing.

The fact is that if Israel (and the rest of the world) wants to face terrorist attacks at record levels then it can maintain its current course. If it wants to better prevent terrorism, however, it could change course and take some of the steps I've mentioned.
I think it'd be a real upgrade.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 OK, but you constantly JUSTIFY (Not directly, but still do), Hamas, Hezbollah and the other terrorist groups attacks! Civilian losses are regrettable no doubt, but what are they supposed to do.

But that's the terrorist mantra: "Civilian losses are regrettable, but what are we supposed to do?"

I think it's also extremely dishonest to singly blame Hezbollah for the cutting off of aid to Palestinians.

Grandpa h.

[Atlas]

Quote by: bob60292 The Nazi's called Hitler an Aryan too. There is no such thing as an Aryan. Aryan is a language group, not an ethnic group; and even if it were, Hitler didn't fit the description. And now you want to use the Nazi's to justify your claim. God help us!!!!!

I never Said I'm justifying my claim with that, again you put words in my mouth, I'm merely applying the irony of your claim, to deny the ethnic identity of people who where and are persecuted because of it.

Quote by: bob60292 My problem is with the phony linkage of a conglomerate of otherwise respectable people who originated somewhere between the Ural Mountains and the Volga, migrated all over Europe, and them claimed genetic linkage to the ancient Hebrews.

Well, at least you admit the fact that there where ancient Hebrews, that's a start how about some facts to support your otherwise bogus theory ? I can present you with historically supported facts on how the ancient Hebrew kingdom of Israel rolled into the later Jewish kingdom of Judea which people are the ancestors of today's modern Jews, what you have to justify what you say ?

Quote by: bob60292 brainwashed into accepting an identity that is not their own. We are dealing with the traditions of Jews, not genetic linkage to a darker skinned persecuted Semitic race such as the Palestinians or the ancient Hebrews.

Palestinians are Arabs by ethnicity, there Palestinian identity formed over the last century from the place they live in, Palestine, the name itself is one the Roman emperor gave to Judea after the crush of the last Jewish revolt, originated from the ancient Philistines, Israels mortal enemy mentioned in the bible, which have no ethnic connections to modern Palestinian Arabs, which, history shows, had no national identity until the 20th century.

As for Semitic races, the name Sem itself is a Hebrew one, according to the bible he was one of the 3 sons of Noah (the guy from the flood), the bible states the group of nations supposedly originated from him, it is only in modern periods that the biblical name was given to all middle-eastern and middle-Asian ethnic groups, Arabs and Jews among them, and I don't deny that there is some ethnic relation between the two groups, regardless of the bible story.

All I said above is historically accurate, and can be proved by more than one source, but i trust you are intelligent enough to check it for yourself.

Quote by: bob60292 There you go!!!! When I went to school i- d- i- o- t spelled IDIOT, and that's what you called me. Have they changed the spelling, buddy? Oh my!!!!

As I explained to you earlier:

I never said that you where an Idiot, I specifically said I was very tempted to do that because of your ignorant opinions, eventually I succumbed to the ways of reason and answered every argument you presented

Quote by: bob60292 You have committed a violation of the rules; but lets let bygones be bygones> I forgive your offensive characterization of me even without an apology.

Thanks for your compassion and forgiveness there bob, but I wasn't apologizing because there is nothing to apologize about, if anything, you should be apologizing to me about the things you thrown at me there, at least I explain the meaning of my comments instead of just erasing them.

I have shown that I am more than willing to debate your argument despite my frustration with you spiting in the face of known history.

Quote by: bob60292 If you were referring to my" psychodelic" theory you might have said idiotic;

And the last time for this reply, this time about your idiotic\psychedelic "colony" theory, some FACTS please...

[shrike]

Quote by: grandpa You keep lying. I have indeed offered solutions. Israel should genuinely stop their occupation (all so-called withdrawls have actually been expansion plans). .

Israel already tried that in Gaza but terrorist still launched Kassams .Only after that the border with Gaza was closed. Also before any withdrawal there should be a Peace agreement .It was proved that unilateral steps don't work
You still failed to provide any real solution for stopping Palestinian terrorism.
The Hamas state quite openly that they don't want Peace and will not recognize Israel even 1967 borders.

I've suggested Israel stop terrorism Palestinians and offer reparations for damages they have indeed inflicted (including the cutting off of humanitarian aide). Grandpa h

Its the Hamas should compensate its own citizens for attacking Israel and instead spending money to prepare new suicide bomber it should pay salaries for the people
Do you suggest the Palestinians do the same and also compensate Israeli citizens for the damage they have done?

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike Israel already tried that in Gaza but terrorist still launched Kassams. Only after that the border with Gaza was closed.

israel should have done the sensible things I've mentioned. They didn't.
They've actually been expanding.

Grandpa h.

[shrike]

israel should have done the sensible things I've mentioned. They didn't. They've actually been expanding.

This things that you meantioned would not stop the violence as I pointed .You didn't answered my arguements.

[bob60292]

Quote by: Atlas I never Said I'm justifying my claim with that, again you put words in my mouth, I'm merely applying the irony of your claim, to deny the ethnic identity of people who where and are persecuted because of it. Well, at least you admit the fact that there where ancient Hebrews, that's a start how about some facts to support your otherwise bogus theory ? I can present you with historically supported facts on how the ancient Hebrew kingdom of Israel rolled into the later Jewish kingdom of Judea which people are the ancestors of today's modern Jews, what you have to justify what you say ? _______________________________________________________________ Talking about putting words in the mouths of others""" Thanks for the good laugh. I never said the Jews today are decendents of the ancient Hebrews. I said they are a conglomerate of peoples. BOB _______________________________________________________________ Palestinians are Arabs by ethnicity, there Palestinian identity formed over the last century from the place they live in, Palestine, the name itself is one the Roman emperor gave to Judea after the crush of the last Jewish revolt, originated from the ancient Philistines, Israels mortal enemy mentioned in the bible, which have no ethnic connections to modern Palestinian Arabs, which, history shows, had no national identity until the 20th century. ________________________________________________________________ You don't have to be the sharpest tack in the box to know that they are far more connected to the region than European Jews can even pretend to be. The modern Palestinians have roots in Palestine that an intelligent person can not deny. Both the ancient Hebrews, and Arabs, unlike European Zionists,are a semetic people. It seems to me that you are willing to come up with any old silly argument to justify a fraudelent view. Sharing a religion does not constitute a race any more than it could change skin color or justify the confiscation and displacement of the Palestinian people. In many ways this situation is a perfect example of "might makes right" and heartless greedy self interest. BOB __________________________________________________________________ As for Semitic races, the name Sem itself is a Hebrew one, according to the bible he was one of the 3 sons of Noah (the guy from the flood), the bible states the group of nations supposedly originated from him, it is only in modern periods that the biblical name was given to all middle-eastern and middle-Asian ethnic groups, Arabs and Jews among them, and I don't deny that there is some ethnic relation between the two groups, regardless of the bible story. ______________________________________________________________ Well that's a start; but this doesn't justify the occupation of Palestine by a people who are neither Arab nor Hebrew. BOB ___________________________________________________________ All I said above is historically accurate, and can be proved by more than one source, but i trust you are intelligent enough to check it for yourself. ____________________________________________________________ I've done that. I am a citizen of a nation that is so swamped by the Zionist lobby that it would have been impossible not to have had to study Zionist propaganda. Over 60 years after the WWII there is barely a day that goes by without there being some sort of holocaust movie or documentary on the American TV screen.I've been to American schools and find the same line in the textbooks,which make it blatently taboo not to be a Zionist fan. It's as if the there were no other victimized people in the world. What about the millions who perished under Lenin, Stalin, Mao, in Cambodia, Viet Nam etc.Are you intelligent enough to allow yourself to be open to the other side? Or do your Zionist coins only have 1 side. We don't find non Zionist views onTV's or movie theateres too ofter. Are you still insisting on basing the crime committed against Palestine on Zionist Propaganda? When was the last time you did a lengthy study on Palestinian rights, and Palestinian causes, and Palestinian heartbreaks, suffering, wrongful deaths and misery. Do you need to get a check up to make sure you have a heart. Have you studied the writings of Jews Against Palestine and Rabbi Barauch Kaplan. What theories will now be conjured up to villify this good rabbi.The man lives by his righteous convictions rather than the greedy, thievery of Zionism. If you plan to rip him now, you'll probably have to answer to God for it.Have you read the Thirteenth Tribe by Koestler, who happens to be a brilliant Jewish historian and author. There are so many wonderful, faithful Jewish people that have unfortunately been victimized by fascist Zionists . BOB ______________________________________________________________ As I explained to you earlier: to apologize about, if anything, you should be apologizing to me about the things you thrown at me there, at least I explain the meaning of my comments instead of just erasing them. Thanks for your compassion and forgiveness there bob, but I wasn't apologizing because there is nothing I have shown that I am more than willing to debate your argument despite my frustration with you spiting in the face of known history. _______________________________________________________________ __ Explaining meanings and lying about what was said are 2 different things. I would appreciate it if you would refrain from calling me an IDIOT. If you're too proud to admit it, and appologise, so be it. BOB And the last time forreply, this time about your idiotic\psychedelic "colony" theory this , some FACTS please...

_______________________________________________________________
Are you really interested in facts, buddy?
BOB

[Atlas]

Are you really interested in facts, buddy?

With such statements, you bet I do

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike This things that you meantioned would not stop the violence as I pointed . You didn't answered my arguements.

How do you know? They haven't been tried, as I've mentioned.

Grandpa h.