Why should I take sides…

[shrike]

He defended Israel's actions, hence, he made an argument for conflict

I am sorry its logical fallacy. How is defense of "Israel's actions" is "argument for conflict".
If I would defend Hezbollah action is would be really argument for the confect.

Israel has a long record of contributing greatly to the deaths of civilians, including placing people on the brink of starvation.

Israel is not responsible for Gaza citizens and doesn't obliged to anything toward them
Israel have every right to close its own border with Gaza Strip. But if Palestinians can smuggle a weapons they surely can get a food too,

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike I am sorry its logical fallacy. How is defense of "Israel's actions" is "argument for conflict".

The only fallacy here is your claiming to not support a side in the conflict., especially when you've made that crystal clear from the beginning.

Grandpa h.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa He defended Israel's actions, hence, he made an argument for conflict. He's been consistently wrong, just as you have been for defending his perverted vision of self-defense. Grandpa h.

Preverted version of self-defense? React to an attack is the definition of self-defense. Plain and simple Hezbollah doesn't unjustifiably attack, then there is no war.

As for civilian deaths, I don't know why you want to single out "the enemy" of Israel regarding them. Israel has a long record of contributing greatly to the deaths of civilians, including placing people on the brink of starvation.

I blame both to some degree. However, arguing that Hezbollah is innocent in the civilian deaths when they hide behind civilians, station their missile sites in highly civilian populated areas, all in an effort to use them as human shields is just plain ignorant. They were able to use this strategy for their PR, so people such as yourself, will cry foul.

[shrike]

The only fallacy here is your claiming to not support a side in the conflict., especially when you've made that crystal clear from the beginning. Grandpa h.

When one side is mostly right is natural to support him.

[ise]

Quote by: ise will it be... Wiesel Could Replace Katsav as Next Israeli President By Foreign News Desk Thursday, October 19, 2006 ...to replace Step-a-Side Katsav or will it be... Have pity - abolish the presidency The JERUSALEM POST Oct. 18, 2006 22:37 | Updated Oct. 20, 2006 16:37 Apparently there is no one is Israel that they can trust to do the job. So they may import an American or else do away with the job. Maybe another Russian? Does he have to a citizen to be elect/appointed? Is it tied in with the instant citizenship bit except of course if you are an Arab or can Israel Arabs become president? Be careful, don't choke!:confused: You would have to laugh if it were not so serious. My vote is for an Israeli Arab!

Update

Israeli president urged to step aside

By Aron Heller, Associated Press | October 30, 2006

JERUSALEM -- President Moshe Katsav of Israel faced the strongest pressure yet to step down yesterday, when Israel's attorney general urged him to take leave while an indictment on rape and other serious charges is taking shape. Although Attorney General Meni Mazuz's recommendation cannot force Katsav from office, it adds an influential voice to the growing chorus of officials who have called for the president to resign. Since the law governing the presidency does not give Mazuz or the Supreme Court the authority to rule on any aspect of Katsav's activities, the attorney general's brief to the court amounted to the strongest official language Mazuz could use. A defiant Katsav appeared determined to hang on to his office. In a statement late yesterday, he rejected the attorney general's recommendation, saying it was [PHP]"the obligation of the authorities to do everything to seek the truth and not allow a media lynching to disrupt the investigation of the truth."[/PHP]

I think Step-a-Side is really a comic. :) Certainly he brings a smile to my face every-time I read about him and there are not many Zionists who can do that. The lecherous bastard, you would think butter would not melt in his mouth. Would he have expected to get away with his behavior if he were not President of Israel! :(

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Preverted version of self-defense? React to an attack is the definition of self-defense.

If you choose to be responsible for your own self defense, you don't go ahead and attack the innocent along with the guilty, you don't bulldoze people's homes and you don't purposely leave people on the brink of starvation just to "combat terrorism."
These are not practical aspects of any self defense I've ever heard of.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike When one side is mostly right is natural to support him.

Not if when the times your side is wrong entails massive campaigns of terrorism, especially against a largely defenseless population.

Grandpa h.

[shrike]

Not if when the times your side is wrong entails massive campaigns of terrorism, especially against a largely defenseless population.

I don't agree with you there no "massive campaigns of terrorism" just self defense.

you don't go ahead and attack the innocent along with the guilty,

You may have some point but what you propose to do if they hide they self among innocent .Should you do nothing a let your people die?

you don't bulldoze people's homes

No one bulldozing homes just because they like it. If Palestinians would stop using they homes for terrorist activities and weapon smuggling there would be no need of Israeli action. But they get enough money for the weapons so they could easily build a new home.

don't purposely leave people on the brink of starvation just to "combat terrorism

Israel don't have to keep it border with Gaza open. They have border with Egypt t they smuggle weapons through so if they can smuggle weapons they can get a food too.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa If you choose to be responsible for your own self defense, you don't go ahead and attack the innocent along with the guilty, you don't bulldoze people's homes and you don't purposely leave people on the brink of starvation just to "combat terrorism." These are not practical aspects of any self defense I've ever heard of. Grandpa h.

No they are aspects of war and fighting terrorist. How many German Civilians were JUSTIFIABLE casualties in the bombing of Berlin in WW II - which were in effect self-defense attacks, due to German aggression? What about in Japan?

War is war and its not pretty, nor can it be. The facts are Israel fought back after being attacked by Hezbollah - aka self-defense. Which was equivalent to Pancho Villa sacing an American town (which if the history books are correct, we invaded Mexico in search of him).

Bull-dozing homes of families of suicide bombers, harsh. Walking into a crowd of innocent civilians HARSHER. How do you punish a suicide bomber, you have to punish him, before the fact, by letting him know that his acts will adversely effect his family.

Also be more specific on the brink of starvation? Are you saying Gaza?

[namguy69]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Supposedly both sides were working for peace, then the Palestinians elected terrorist to leadership, then they came onto Israel and took hostages (FOR PEACE?) You make of that what you will, I think the facts speak mostly for themselves.

The people of the Middle East, Israel included, have been warring with each for the past 5,000 years and we're going march into that mess and change things...it's a fools plight.

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike I don't agree with you there no "massive campaigns of terrorism" just self defense. You may have some point but what you propose to do if they hide they self among innocent .

If you could find such cases where Israel hasn't been punishing the innocent with the guilty in large campaigns of terror, I'd be interested.
What should Israel do? Well, it's government could listen to some of its citizens who have morals.
You keep insisting only Palestinian terrorists kill women and children, which is an utter lie.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 No they are aspects of war and fighting terrorist. How many German Civilians were JUSTIFIABLE casualties in the bombing of Berlin in WW II - which were in effect self- defense attacks, due to German aggression?

Atrocities are NOT justified, even though there certainly was justification in stopping Hitler's aggression.
Consider US/Nato efforts in Kosovo, which relied on the KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army)
The KLA was guilty of bombing schools, restaurants, shopping
centers, public buildings, assassinations, murder, rape and all the assorted
types of horrid activities of a cruel war. Was that relationship justified? No, and the same stands for US support of Israel's activities which, while not entirely identical to the KLA, are not justified.

If any sens ecan be made of history, it is that w ecan learn from mistakes of the past. Israel is not doing that, nor can we expect their leaders to, for they are not interested in peace any more than Hezbollah.

Grandpa h.

[jose]

]Israel launches major Gaza raid Eight Palestinians and one Israeli soldier have been killed in heavy clashes in the northern Gaza Strip. In one of Israel's biggest raids into Gaza in recent months, troops carried out three air strikes and moved to encircle the town of Beit Hanoun. Some 60 people were wounded as troops, backed by tanks and helicopter gunships, carried out the raid

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel launches major Gaza raid

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Bull-dozing homes of families of suicide bombers, harsh. Walking into a crowd of innocent civilians HARSHER. How do you punish a suicide bomber, you have to punish him, before the fact, by letting him know that his acts will adversely effect his family.

Punish an entire population for the crimes of a few? There are many unfavorable words for that, but I'll settle with terrorism.

Quote by: GHook93 Also be more specific on the brink of starvation? Are you saying Gaza?

Yes, Israel has withheld million in revenue collected from Palestinian taxes. Food and supplies have been cut off. They are making it open to famine, just like the UN sanctions did in Iraq.

Grandpa h.

[shrike]

If you could find such cases where Israel hasn't been punishing the innocent with the guilty in large campaigns of terror, I'd be interested.

You again wish me to prove negative. You should present such campaigns.
And we will see if it true or not.

What should Israel do? Well, it's government could listen to some of its citizens who have morals

Again there is a immediate danger a suicide bomber going to your city. What should you do?

You keep insisting only Palestinian terrorists kill women and children, which is an utter lie.

Here goes straw man. I never claimed this. Of course Israeli army do this too but the difference that Palestinian goal to civilians and Israeli to kill terrorist of course innocents die but there is a nature of self-defense war.

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike You again wish me to prove negative. You should present such campaigns.

It's not a negative. You immediately acknowledge below that Israel has killed innocent civilians. You agree with me yet claim I'm false?

But if you want some sources, don't be shy of these:
Israel/Occupied Territories: Jenin War Crimes Investigation Needed (Human Rights Watch, 3-5-2002)
Israel: Sharon Investigation Urged (Human Rights Watch, 23-6-2001)

Amnesty International:
Israel/Occupied Terr.: Amnesty International's Human Rights Concerns



Grandpa h.

[shrike]

It's not a negative. You immediately acknowledge below that Israel has killed innocent civilians. You agree with me yet claim I'm false?

.

Israel/Occupied Territories: Jenin War Crimes Investigation Needed (Human Rights Watch, 3-5-2002) Israel: Sharon Investigation Urged (Human Rights Watch, 23-6-2001) Amnesty International: Israel/Occupied Terr.: Amnesty International's Human Rights Concerns

SO?Like I said it way of wars.Even in defensive wars civilians die.But you should blame the aggressor i.e Palestinian terrorists

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike . SO?Like I said it way of wars.Even in defensive wars civilians die.But you should blame the aggressor i.e Palestinian terrorists

Again, the loss of civilian lives is an argument against war, especially when it's war against a largely defenseless population who you generally condemn as "terrorists." If Israel continues its efforts, the numbers of genuine terrorists is likely to grow.

Grandpa h.

[shrike]

Again, the loss of civilian lives is an argument against war, especially when it's war against a largely defenseless population who you generally condemn as "terrorists."

[Again you don't propose any alternative solutions. Israel government obligation is to protect its own citizens. Government should act when its citizens are killed by terrorists..

[GHook93]

QUOTE=grandpa;297259Punish an entire population for the crimes of a few? There are many unfavorable words for that, but I'll settle with terrorism.

What entire population you are punishing suicide bombers, who coincidence are doing exactly what you are condeming - Punish the entire population for the crimes of a few! :rolleyes: Get your argument straight! It is not terrorism, the suicide bomber brought this on himself and his family. The innocent victims he takes do not

Yes, Israel has withheld million in revenue collected from Palestinian taxes. Food and supplies have been cut off. They are making it open to famine, just like the UN sanctions did in Iraq. Grandpa h.

Gaza problems are due to the Palestinians and the Palestinian Government - it is ignorant to blame Israel for that. You are telling me they should support and assist a government - Hamas - that has in its bylaws to destroy all of Israel, still is attacking Israel, under-mines the peace-process, refuses to abide by the "Road-map to Peace," refuses to agree to a 2 state solution and refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist. Only a complete fucking moron would do things to strenghten their ruthless enemy. It would be like America giving the Germans tanks, guns and airplanes while our Soldiers were fighting on the front-line.

Bottom line: Hamas agrees to a 2 state-solution, they have a free independent state!