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Section 8 · Sep 28, 2003, 01:03 am

For our friends in Britian here's a link for info about the list.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/11/...ain543573.shtml

I do not support this list. I don't believe that thousands should lose their jobs just for the sake of convienence. Basically we're telling the people who are working hard to support their familys, "Fuck you, I don't care if you might go hungry, you annoy me for fifteen minutes, since my life is so much more important than yours"

(sorry if I offended anyone with the language, it's just that I would like to show how stupid people who support the list sound)

Have Fun
Shalom

RebelWithanAK · Sep 28, 2003, 01:16 am

Cry me a river, they get paid $4 an hour anyway and have no downtime. If you want total employment, get the WPA again - at least some good will come out of it. In the meantime I don't want the commercial world invading my home more than it already does.

Section 8 · Sep 28, 2003, 01:48 am

Ha, very funny. Telemarketers try hard to earn a living. In todays fiscal job market initiating the DNCL would leave many jobless, and most of them might not get another job. As I said we're dealing with peoples lives not ten minutes of your oh so precious time.

On a sidenote Rebel you're usually very liberal and in tune to the problems of the working class. Now you sound like Rush Limbaugh.

Have Fun
Shalom

RebelWithanAK · Sep 28, 2003, 06:02 pm

You're taking this from the wrong angle, Section 8. Employment for employment's sake, maybe, but just because a company keeps an army of slave wagers doesn't make it impenetrable to criticism. Walmart employs 1.3 million people at an average wage of $7.50, and that's a crying shame. Anything that hinders the prevalence of this outrage of humanity concerning the working class is a good thing. You can't depend on the private sector to give back anything in terms of livelihood, comfort, or even a grasp on life, because to them we don't exist.

If we want to utilize this labor in a way that's beneficial to society at large and my sanity in small, then why not have the feds cut more checks to the support of the arts? Bush stopped that federal funding (as did he for a lot of things, including subsidies for tertiary education, grr), as had he destroyed labor relations and the power of the working man - which is why you have $4 an hour "labor pools" given only 15 seconds downtime between coldcalls - and it makes me so angry I can't see straight.

We're cheapening our entire culture to the point of ludicrousy - I dare say that in our holy venture for the almighty dollar, we've lost all humanity in the process - and your well-meaning but misguided attack further drives home the point.

Sep 28, 2003, 10:38 pm

texas has a don not call list, and we're on it...
we still get the calls....

Section 8 · Sep 29, 2003, 12:09 am

Rebel you couldn't be more right. We have lost all humanity in search of a slip of paper. The world is not yet ready for a socialist revolution. As a fellow socialist (I'm assuming that you're one) I believe that some money is better than no money. The only way people could change this is a mass boycott of work. If all, or a vast majority of the working class quit their jobs, the capitalists would have to give in. If they lose their puppets to manipulate then they might cease to be. Of course this is a long while off.

Have Fun
Shalom

RebelWithanAK · Sep 29, 2003, 03:47 am

A general strike is exceedingly difficult to attain, especially with our current unemployment rates. It's a pipe dream if one thinks that such an action is the best - nigh, only - way to go about fomenting change. Our current task is one of education. Grassroots projects are unfeasible because of the size of the whole - how are you going to mobilize 1.3 million people, country-wide, to act against their shared employer? - but electing congressmen is a fine way of getting things done. The problem is two-fold: One, that the current system is set up so that the 'people' are only directly represented by one half of one third of the national role; two, that there are far too many moderates that are diluting the debates and cheapening politicians' stands by yanking them all to a centrist non-action.

The former is the fault of our founding fathers, and can't be readily reformed, but the latter is a societal ill that is self-serving and ultimately self-destructive. They bring everyone to the center and then complain that the politicians are identical, and they are utterly complacent unless a disaster hits on their front door. It's like how you cook a rat: drop it in a pot of boiling water, and he escapes for his life, but put him in a pot and slowly heat the water around him, and he'll cook quite nicely.

Section 8 · Sep 29, 2003, 10:58 am

As you said the problem with electing members to congress is that they will be forced to reform unless there is a large number of socialists in power. The problem with education is that you need to start young. I'm of course not saying that you need to brainwash kids, that would be like the capitalists. They need to have a fair and balanced education. They need a teacher to teach to them about Socialism and let them make their own decision. After the education step is completed you have three main options: A. Mass strike; peaceful protest. B. Armed Revolution. C. A mix between the two.

Have Fun
Shalom

RebelWithanAK · Sep 29, 2003, 05:36 pm

Well, personally, I'm not particularly ready for armed revolution, nor do I believe I will ever be. As Chris Rock said, even if there's tanks rolling down Flatbush Avenue, I still ain't gonna fight. I also do not believe that such a violent overthrow is in any way beneficial towards the post-revolutionary phase; just ask Napoleon and Stalin. Besides, aren't you the same person touting pacifism in the buddhism thread?

Section 8 · Sep 29, 2003, 07:13 pm

You misunderstood me. I didn't say that I supported armed revolution. I said that that is an option for many socialists. You're right. An armed revolution might achieve Socialism faster, but it only sets things up for problems, and bigger problems will come rolling around some day.

Have Fun
Shalom

RebelWithanAK · Sep 30, 2003, 01:42 am

I really do wish that my generation of 'socialists' would get off the whole armed revolution topic in general, not to mention the whole Gospel-of-Marx crap, and just wade into the god-damned issues and how to resolve them presently.

Section 8 · Sep 30, 2003, 10:18 am

Rebel, how would you conduct a revolution. I'm curious.

fedfem · Sep 30, 2003, 02:05 pm

In this day and age, armed revolution wouldn't work. That is the biggest problem the US has had--trying to end socialism in South America by arming opposition groups. I for one believe Socialism is natural and only through education can it be empowered. Marx's world was a different one than we live in today. Socialism must be employed at the local level before it can spread successfully. Unfortunately when socialism works more people are able to accumulate wealth and property and self-interest steps in. The ideals that brought us prosperity now threaten to take it away.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Sep 30, 2003, 05:07 pm

Let us chop off everyones right arm, that will make us have to hire 3 times as many people to get a decent job done and solve that unemployment problem...and make as much sense.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 1, 2003, 12:14 am

Fedfem, you're sounding better day by day.

Greatwyrm, you don't like culture, do you?

G. Adams · Oct 3, 2003, 07:22 am

In Britain we've had this service as long as I can remember, and I'm for it. Rather than creating crappy jobs for the sake of it, get them back into education so they can get decent jobs. And the better educated they are, the more likely they are to go left wing.

Section 8 · Oct 3, 2003, 10:45 am

The problem is that they lack the money to get a better education. They would be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 3, 2003, 11:05 am

Sec 8, in GB even tertiary education is heavily subsidized by the government, and compared to the extravagantly (and prohibitively) expensive institutions here, it's merely a pittance over there. It's entirely possible, will do a lot of good without presenting any major drawbacks, and is working in a number of countries poorer than we are. Now, if we'd ever stop giving the Defense Department black checks...

Section 8 · Oct 3, 2003, 11:11 am

We love or guns just to much.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 3, 2003, 11:12 am

So do Canadians. So?

Sep 28, 2003, 01:16 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Cry me a river, they get paid $4 an hour anyway and have no downtime. If you want total employment, get the WPA again - at least some good will come out of it. In the meantime I don't want the commercial world invading my home more than it already does. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Sep 28, 2003, 06:02 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	You're taking this from the wrong angle, Section 8. Employment for employment's sake, maybe, but just because a company keeps an army of slave wagers doesn't make it impenetrable to criticism. Walmart employs 1.3 million people at an average wage of $7.50, and that's a crying shame. Anything that hinders the prevalence of this outrage of humanity concerning the working class is a good thing. You can't depend on the private sector to give back anything in terms of livelihood, comfort, or even a grasp on life, because to them we don't exist. If we want to utilize this labor in a way that's beneficial to society at large and my sanity in small, then why not have the feds cut more checks to the support of the arts? Bush stopped that federal funding (as did he for a lot of things, including subsidies for tertiary education, grr), as had he destroyed labor relations and the power of the working man - which is why you have $4 an hour "labor pools" given only 15 seconds downtime between coldcalls - and it makes me so angry I can't see straight. We're cheapening our entire culture to the point of ludicrousy - I dare say that in our holy venture for the almighty dollar, we've lost all humanity in the process - and your well-meaning but misguided attack further drives home the point. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Sep 29, 2003, 03:47 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	A general strike is exceedingly difficult to attain, especially with our current unemployment rates. It's a pipe dream if one thinks that such an action is the best - nigh, only - way to go about fomenting change. Our current task is one of education. Grassroots projects are unfeasible because of the size of the whole - how are you going to mobilize 1.3 million people, country-wide, to act against their shared employer? - but electing congressmen is a fine way of getting things done. The problem is two-fold: One, that the current system is set up so that the 'people' are only directly represented by one half of one third of the national role; two, that there are far too many moderates that are diluting the debates and cheapening politicians' stands by yanking them all to a centrist non-action. The former is the fault of our founding fathers, and can't be readily reformed, but the latter is a societal ill that is self-serving and ultimately self-destructive. They bring everyone to the center and then complain that the politicians are identical, and they are utterly complacent unless a disaster hits on their front door. It's like how you cook a rat: drop it in a pot of boiling water, and he escapes for his life, but put him in a pot and slowly heat the water around him, and he'll cook quite nicely. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Sep 29, 2003, 05:36 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Well, personally, I'm not particularly ready for armed revolution, nor do I believe I will ever be. As Chris Rock said, even if there's tanks rolling down Flatbush Avenue, I still ain't gonna fight. I also do not believe that such a violent overthrow is in any way beneficial towards the post-revolutionary phase; just ask Napoleon and Stalin. Besides, aren't you the same person touting pacifism in the buddhism thread? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Sep 30, 2003, 01:42 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	I really do wish that my generation of 'socialists' would get off the whole armed revolution topic in general, not to mention the whole Gospel-of-Marx crap, and just wade into the god-damned issues and how to resolve them presently. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Sep 28, 2003, 01:03 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	For our friends in Britian here's a link for info about the list. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/11/...ain543573.shtml I do not support this list. I don't believe that thousands should lose their jobs just for the sake of convienence. Basically we're telling the people who are working hard to support their familys, "Fuck you, I don't care if you might go hungry, you annoy me for fifteen minutes, since my life is so much more important than yours" (sorry if I offended anyone with the language, it's just that I would like to show how stupid people who support the list sound) Have Fun Shalom

Sep 28, 2003, 01:48 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Ha, very funny. Telemarketers try hard to earn a living. In todays fiscal job market initiating the DNCL would leave many jobless, and most of them might not get another job. As I said we're dealing with peoples lives not ten minutes of your oh so precious time. On a sidenote Rebel you're usually very liberal and in tune to the problems of the working class. Now you sound like Rush Limbaugh. Have Fun Shalom

Sep 28, 2003, 10:38 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Gregory Guest Posts: n/a	texas has a don not call list, and we're on it... we still get the calls....

Sep 29, 2003, 12:09 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Rebel you couldn't be more right. We have lost all humanity in search of a slip of paper. The world is not yet ready for a socialist revolution. As a fellow socialist (I'm assuming that you're one) I believe that some money is better than no money. The only way people could change this is a mass boycott of work. If all, or a vast majority of the working class quit their jobs, the capitalists would have to give in. If they lose their puppets to manipulate then they might cease to be. Of course this is a long while off. Have Fun Shalom

Sep 29, 2003, 10:58 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	As you said the problem with electing members to congress is that they will be forced to reform unless there is a large number of socialists in power. The problem with education is that you need to start young. I'm of course not saying that you need to brainwash kids, that would be like the capitalists. They need to have a fair and balanced education. They need a teacher to teach to them about Socialism and let them make their own decision. After the education step is completed you have three main options: A. Mass strike; peaceful protest. B. Armed Revolution. C. A mix between the two. Have Fun Shalom

Sep 29, 2003, 07:13 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	You misunderstood me. I didn't say that I supported armed revolution. I said that that is an option for many socialists. You're right. An armed revolution might achieve Socialism faster, but it only sets things up for problems, and bigger problems will come rolling around some day. Have Fun Shalom

Sep 30, 2003, 10:18 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Rebel, how would you conduct a revolution. I'm curious.

Sep 30, 2003, 02:05 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	In this day and age, armed revolution wouldn't work. That is the biggest problem the US has had--trying to end socialism in South America by arming opposition groups. I for one believe Socialism is natural and only through education can it be empowered. Marx's world was a different one than we live in today. Socialism must be employed at the local level before it can spread successfully. Unfortunately when socialism works more people are able to accumulate wealth and property and self-interest steps in. The ideals that brought us prosperity now threaten to take it away.

Sep 30, 2003, 05:07 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	Let us chop off everyones right arm, that will make us have to hire 3 times as many people to get a decent job done and solve that unemployment problem...and make as much sense.

Oct 1, 2003, 12:14 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Fedfem, you're sounding better day by day. Greatwyrm, you don't like culture, do you? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 3, 2003, 07:22 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	In Britain we've had this service as long as I can remember, and I'm for it. Rather than creating crappy jobs for the sake of it, get them back into education so they can get decent jobs. And the better educated they are, the more likely they are to go left wing. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 3, 2003, 10:45 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	The problem is that they lack the money to get a better education. They would be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Oct 3, 2003, 11:05 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Sec 8, in GB even tertiary education is heavily subsidized by the government, and compared to the extravagantly (and prohibitively) expensive institutions here, it's merely a pittance over there. It's entirely possible, will do a lot of good without presenting any major drawbacks, and is working in a number of countries poorer than we are. Now, if we'd ever stop giving the Defense Department black checks... . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 3, 2003, 11:11 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	We love or guns just to much.

Oct 3, 2003, 11:12 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	So do Canadians. So? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.