International Relations

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Jason
And I thought I was one of the few that remembered that they used illegal weapons the first day. NTM: the scuds they found that had been modified to carry an alternate payload, even if they did not find said payload...

[Jay]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@Aug 30 2003, 12:22 AM John It was not the capitalization that provoked me, it was this implication that I am an unfeeling brute. You also mis-quoted me while you were taking it out of context. If this was unintentional, you sure beat the odds... On the other hand, I am thick skinned, I forgive fairly easily, and I forget fairly quickly unless I am continually reminded. Even if I do not allow them to pass unmentioned.

Did you actually read the recent news? 2 car bombs exploded in Bagdad not long ago and the whole city is falling into some sort of anarchy. Now it's not only militant groups fighting the US soldiers but also different religious groups (schiits, kurds, sunits) bombing each other. I'd call this already the begin of a civil war.

This somehow is exactly what I expected to happen in Iraq. (I even presented my forecast at school as part of an anti-war project some months ago)

Isn't it ironic that instead of enfeebling the islamic terrorism the boosted it up even more?

...

[G. Adams]

The reaction of the US public, and from Johns post's the Aussie public too, demonstrates the lack of experience in both countries of military activity (real stuff, ground troops I mean rather than bombing 50 civilians to hit one guy). GB has been in Northern Ireland for 30 years, losing on average of 1 soldier a week, but we stuck in, kept up the work and now we have peace. We don't bitch and moan about each soldiers deaths, because we know that they died working for peace, and that withdrawal would disrespect the dead soldiers because their deathw ould be in vain. The US and Aussie public should accept that each soldier has a risk of dying, and its not a small risk at that. If we want to minimise the risks for our soldiers then the UN should take control, or at least make it appear that way. The majority of Iraqi's only tolerate the US in their country on sufferance, but would welcome the UN. Then extremists would get little support from the general public, and it is the civilians who are the real weapons of guerilla fighters. It is the most basic principle of peacekeeping that you win the hearts and minds of civilians first, but that won't happen when the Iraqi's feel like and occupied and invaded nation.

On Europe: European nations would have helped much more if the US hadn't been so belligerent. I know Bush is intellectually challenged but he really has be taught some diplomacy. And now that you've invaded and Iraq is spiralling out of control we want to help, BUT at the same time we know that the US reason for asking our assistance is to cut its ever rising costs. If anything bothers Americans more than the war on terror is its economy, and this war isn't helping.

And as a side not Europe gives more AID than the US to developing countries, which minimises terrorist attack far more than attacking countries and creating new ones. You have to remember terrorism is like a hydra, if you cut off a head two more appear. You have to stop the problem at its root, poverty. If these people were not so poor they would not be so desperate, and if they were not desperate they would not listen to extremists.

Oh, and John, if your going to continue being an intolerant bigot, perhaps it'd would be more constructive to just crawl up your middle class, self serving arsehole.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

G. Adams
You write well enough that it is obvious that you do have a brain. But you may want to consider applying it to the situation instead of using your local values to problem solve for you.

#1 John has not exibited racism yet, he has only attacked the current system of dealing with it, even if he did so in a very inept manner.

#2 Our current POTUS obviously has diplomatic skill, he has used the American political system to further his own ends, in spite of belonging to the currently unpopular party. That takes a great deal of skill, diplomacy, as well as intelligence. I happen to oppose almost everything he stands for, but I judge a man by reason not my personal feelings.

#3 You are welcome to accuse me of being a self-serving asshole if you wish, I do not consider self-serving an insult. Who would you expect me to serve, you??

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Jay
I admit you have confused me. I have no idea why you quoted me and then did not refer to anything you quoted. I also do not understand why you think America is responsible for Iraq. Iraq was acting in an irresponsible and violent manner and we used like force on them, that was the end of our obligation. Rebuilding their country is charity, which I am opposed to, but not our obligation.

[Dislogic]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@Aug 30 2003, 03:12 PM G. Adams You write well enough that it is obvious that you do have a brain. But you may want to consider applying it to the situation instead of using your local values to problem solve for you. #1 John has not exibited racism yet, he has only attacked the current system of dealing with it, even if he did so in a very inept manner. #2 Our current POTUS obviously has diplomatic skill, he has used the American political system to further his own ends, in spite of belonging to the currently unpopular party. That takes a great deal of skill, diplomacy, as well as intelligence. I happen to oppose almost everything he stands for, but I judge a man by reason not my personal feelings. #3 You are welcome to accuse me of being a self-serving asshole if you wish, I do not consider self-serving an insult. Who would you expect me to serve, you??

Damn now that was solid

lol...

[Sean]

Originally posted by G. Adams@Aug 30 2003, 11:06 AM Oh, and John, if your going to continue being an intolerant bigot, perhaps it'd would be more constructive to just crawl up your middle class, self serving arsehole.

Don't make me have to set up a warning system. I don't want any attacks like that again.

Thanks to the members who reported that post to me. I'm easy-going, but hey, if you report it I'll investigate.

[John]

Originally posted by G. Adams@Aug 30 2003, 11:06 AM Oh, and John, if your going to continue being an intolerant bigot, perhaps it'd would be more constructive to just crawl up your middle class, self serving arsehole.

Where the hell did that come from and what the hell caused it?

[Fallen Angel]

America is not in it primarily for the oil, this powderkeg known as the middle east has been ready to explode for centuries.
America is better off losing a man a day to the Republican guard(now in civvys) than to pull out and risk the terrorists bringing the war back again to the US.
They are better off taking on these bastards overseas than at home.
The main reason the terrorists were able to bomb the Towers and Pentagon was a complete breakdown on man on the ground espionage like they had in the cold war, too much reliance on computers in satelites and not enough ground work, this should change now that they are on the ground in the Middle East.

[Jay]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@Aug 30 2003, 03:16 PM Jay I admit you have confused me. I have no idea why you quoted me and then did not refer to anything you quoted. I also do not understand why you think America is responsible for Iraq. Iraq was acting in an irresponsible and violent manner and we used like force on them, that was the end of our obligation. Rebuilding their country is charity, which I am opposed to, but not our obligation.

I am wondering the same thing now, too... From what I remember I quoted a different part... this is confusing.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by John@Aug 29 2003, 09:55 PM i love the fact iraq is getting its ass pounded

Perhaps I jumped the gun but anyone who loves to see another country attacked and people being killed has already lost any respect in a sensible argument.

I don't see how insulting someone, and to be fair it wasn't even harsh, can be worse than cheering on a war. Except the risk of the posts degenerating into slagging matches.

And I seem to remember John implying a natural lower intellect in the aboriginal australians, quoting figures claiming that their children are in the lowest 10% of academic standards, internationally. I remember a certain group, to remain unnamed for fear of invoking a law of message boards, using similar arguments for the cleansing of their society of Roma gypsies, among others.

Of course I don't expect anyone to serve me. I don't even like asking for help. But, by self serving I was lightly implying selfish.

Cheers for the warning too sean

[John]

Originally posted by G. Adams@Aug 31 2003, 11:18 AM Perhaps I jumped the gun but anyone who loves to see another country attacked and people being killed has already lost any respect in a sensible argument. I don't see how insulting someone, and to be fair it wasn't even harsh, can be worse than cheering on a war. Except the risk of the posts degenerating into slagging matches. And I seem to remember John implying a natural lower intellect in the aboriginal australians, quoting figures claiming that their children are in the lowest 10% of academic standards, internationally. I remember a certain group, to remain unnamed for fear of invoking a law of message boards, using similar arguments for the cleansing of their society of Roma gypsies, among others. Of course I don't expect anyone to serve me. I don't even like asking for help. But, by self serving I was lightly implying selfish. Cheers for the warning too sean

If its their military and their terrorists being killed then i do not really care, civvies are another thing though.

And dont go on about aboriginals you dont live here, so you dont have a clue. I have experienced them first hand and know exactly what they are all about.

[Fallen Angel]

Personally I have nothing against Abos, I have lived and played Rugby League and Cricket with them, they are pretty nice people when you get to know them, however they totally lose it when they drink too much alcohol,
I know this from first hand experience.
Before the whites landed in this beautiful country, the Abos were an alcohol free culture, and except for the odd tribal war, generally were pretty damn peaceful, compared to the rest of the world.
Alcohol now is absolutely destroying them and their familys as they have not built up a genetic resistance to it.
Things are starting to turn around for them abit lately as they start to find there pride again, anyone that thinks alcohol has the same effect on everyone probabley doesnt live in Australia, they really loose it bigtime.
Our law system does not suit the blacks here as it is far too slow, and I for one prefer their system of quick and painful justice to ours, as pain is the best teacher.

[G. Adams]

Actually I do have family in Australia. My aunt and my cousin Jess live in Perth, well more Freemantle, and she has no problems with Aboriginals. Then again she's buddhist and has no problem with anyone. Except intolerant people. Like say...you?

Besides, lets just change the cultures. In my country the lowest performing ethnic group and carribean descendants. Thats because they get a shitty time of it here. But look at Barbados. Full of highly intelligent carribeans. Why? Because they have been placed in such a situation that allows them to become intelligent. If the Aboriginal Australians were given the same lives as the white australians, then they would, once they adapted, be just as intelligent.

[John]

Originally posted by G. Adams@Aug 31 2003, 09:54 PM Actually I do have family in Australia. My aunt and my cousin Jess live in Perth, well more Freemantle, and she has no problems with Aboriginals. Then again she's buddhist and has no problem with anyone. Except intolerant people. Like say...you? Besides, lets just change the cultures. In my country the lowest performing ethnic group and carribean descendants. Thats because they get a shitty time of it here. But look at Barbados. Full of highly intelligent carribeans. Why? Because they have been placed in such a situation that allows them to become intelligent. If the Aboriginal Australians were given the same lives as the white australians, then they would, once they adapted, be just as intelligent.

So, free education, special classes, cheaper uni entrance scores, it seems to me that they have the better lives, but why dosnt it show? Because they dont take advantage of it, they dont have the will to learn, yes some do, but the majority do not. I have nothing against the full blooded abbos who can live off the land and do things their traditional ways, they have a lot of things to teach, our military trains with aboriginal trackers because they have a wealth of knowelege, it is just these new age ones who give me the shits.

[G. Adams]

Perhaps if the Australian government hadn't torn apart the aboriganal families in a forced integration scheme. Mind, thats not your fault and you probably disagree with it too.

If just aboriginee can break from the mould then it shows it is possible genetically. Then the problem must be elsewhere, the life of the integrated aboriginee.

Oh, and back to the Iraq point. In any war today civillians are going to make up a fair chunk of the casualties. And Iraq never had a terrorist problem. Not until the Coalition forces invaded anyway. And now its justified, because the coalition forces are occupiers. Without UN approval they will be seen in no other light.

[John]

Originally posted by G. Adams@Aug 31 2003, 10:06 PM Perhaps if the Australian government hadn't torn apart the aboriganal families in a forced integration scheme. Mind, thats not your fault and you probably disagree with it too. If just aboriginee can break from the mould then it shows it is possible genetically. Then the problem must be elsewhere, the life of the integrated aboriginee.

Yeah, it is mainly to do with alcohol abuse, the Australian government has banned alcohol in some aboriginal communities, it should be for all of them where it is a problem. And just to add to the point, there was a story on the ABC about an aboriginal in a small community of aboriginals who went on to uni and was a member of ATSIC (abboriginal and torres strait island commission), when she goes back to her home town they treat her somewhat of an outcast because she strived to get an education which her community couldnt offer her, that is also another problem that has to be addressed.

Eh im going way off topic, no more about abbos from me here.

[Fallen Angel]

Originally posted by G. Adams@Aug 31 2003, 09:54 PM Except intolerant people. Like say...you?

I'm not intolerant at all, I just don't let myself be pushed around by people of other races like you probably do because of your overwhelming nightmare of being thought a racist.
The only 'ist', I see myself as is a realist, you are an idealist, and I'm sorry to tell you a sadly deluded one at that.

[John]

Originally posted by Fallen Angel+Aug 31 2003, 10:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fallen Angel @ Aug 31 2003, 10:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-G. Adams@Aug 31 2003, 09:54 PM Except intolerant people.  Like say...you?

I'm not intolerant at all, I just don't let myself be pushed around by people of other races like you probably do because of your overwhelming nightmare of being thought a racist.
The only 'ist', I see myself as is a realist, you are an idealist, and I'm sorry to tell you a sadly deluded one at that. [/b][/quote]
it was directed at me i think

[Fallen Angel]

Originally posted by G. Adams@Aug 31 2003, 10:06 PM Oh, and back to the Iraq point. In any war today civillians are going to make up a fair chunk of the casualties. And Iraq never had a terrorist problem. Not until the Coalition forces invaded anyway. And now its justified, because the coalition forces are occupiers. Without UN approval they will be seen in no other light.

Is this the same UN that stood by in apathetic uselessness in 1994 and let a million Rwandans get slaughtered within 12 month's in one of the most no holds savage display's of butchery and ethnic cleansing known?
Himmler would have taken his hat off to them.

In 1995 it was reported the UN spent almost half a billion US dollars in Somalia, building a conference centre.