Pride in Ameirca.

[abub]

Quote by: bishop the only true differentiator that i can see IS our government.

and the huge chunk of land on which we enjoy our lives together, our language, currency, organizations, public services, fashion, industries, music, sports, food, flag, etc.

[bishop]

the thing that i have a problem with is that there is no single way to define/characterize what america is, exactly.. one man's opinion will likely different from the other's..

what is america in my eyes? beats the hell out of me.. there's too much diversity for me to give a remotely accurate answer. one thing that does bind us altogether, however, is our government, its policies and our elected "representatives"... one may want to take the government out of the picture, but that's little more than wishful thinking imo.. like it or not, the government IS a key part of our country (if it wasn't, i doubt 9/11 would ever have happened).

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Technosoul Perhaps I should question if we still have America instead of if we still have pride in it. Where forth art thou oh Adam? Hmm, guess that is enough to debate about for right now (doing my duty here at Volconvo).

That is about my take on the situation.


I just don't recognize the current manifestation of criminal representation as anything that reflects on me, or my values. The current government is as far from representing my views as it has ever been, and moving farther away still.


I believe the whole system has been hijacked, and the Cabal of Incumbants in power are more, or less "selected" for those roles, and not truly voted in by the constituents.


If not, then why does the money always win?

[Cephus]

Quote by: tinybear Whatever they may say about America, millions flock to her shores, hoping to make her their home. Enough said, I think.

Well, millions flock to her shores, but not to make her their home, but to make a buck, send most of the money back to their countries of origin, with the intention of going back there once they've raped the Statue of Liberty for everything she's worth.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Cephus Quote by: tinybear Whatever they may say about America, millions flock to her shores, hoping to make her their home. Enough said, I think. Well, millions flock to her shores, but not to make her their home, but to make a buck, send most of the money back to their countries of origin, with the intention of going back there once they've raped the Statue of Liberty for everything she's worth.

Come on now, some bow their backs so you can have cheap strawberries, they work harded for the money they get then most Ameircans would even dream of attempting. And they do not send it to their country of orgins but to their families at home, for their kids, and even for their parents. They are honest, hardworking, and family oriented. They set an example some people here in the USA might want to admire and even take heed of.

You said they "rape the Statue of Liberity for all she's worth - then leave" .... Come on now! That was downright rude and not true.

At least they are not here to rape our Rainforests, our oil resources, our human resources, nor our poppy plants. They earn what they they get paid for doing - the old way.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: bishop the thing that i have a problem with is that there is no single way to define/characterize what america is, exactly.. one man's opinion will likely different from the other's.. what is america in my eyes? beats the hell out of me.. there's too much diversity for me to give a remotely accurate answer. one thing that does bind us altogether, however, is our government, its policies and our elected "representatives"... one may want to take the government out of the picture, but that's little more than wishful thinking imo.. like it or not, the government IS a key part of our country (if it wasn't, i doubt 9/11 would ever have happened).

Our country is sort of like the gold rush days when everyone packed up wagons and went to California, or later on, when they packed up the buggy to go to California because of Hollywood, and because other jobs became plentiful. Following the Hollywood dream - the hope, the freedom, and a chance to get rich and to own a home or new car. Hollywood outlines what Ameirca is, John Wayne in a cowboy hat or off to war. James Dean rebelling - born to be wild. Monroe doing that Cadilac walk, Gidget on the beach, and then we had the drops out hippies who came to California with flowers in their hair, then came the Valley days as the computer era started to "get hot".

"California we still a-comin', we will make it there if the car keeps a-runnin' ".
(old hillbilly song).

California also had it's share of the oil boom, and of course, farming is one of the main products of the state. Disneyland and other attracitons made it a tourest destination.

It is a place for everyone to be what they wanna be - even gangsters can become heros.

The music tells it all - Bluegrass, Big Bands, the Blues singer from the Delta, Rock and Roll, Disco, Dixieland, Redneck and Country music, Soul, R&B, Techno, Broadway, Mambo, Boogie Woogie, Surf intramentals, Beach music, Cajun and Swamp Pop, Popular (re: Frank Sinatra and Doris Day),
Hillbilly, Rap, and those Oldies But Goodies (re: Lowrider music) and a flavoring the the Latin Beat (Santanna and Rick Martin -etc.). And the big Mega Mix.

Turn it on, pump it up.

Ameirca .... sweet home California.

Amierca - the vanishing railroad, the jammed freeways, the country dirt roads, and.... and... Sunset Strip with all it's neon lights and other happenings.

Chuck Berry singing "I'm so glad I'm livin' in the USA" ---- elaborations of pride in USA.

Supersized meals, supersized churches, supersized everything - super dooper place.

Politics and stand up comics - ain't we got fun?

And besides that, we got lots of stuff to gripe about. superdopper gripes - what more can we ask for in a country?

[brien]

Quote by: Technosoul Come on now, some bow their backs so you can have cheap strawberries, they work harded for the money they get then most Ameircans would even dream of attempting. And they do not send it to their country of orgins but to their families at home, for their kids, and even for their parents. They are honest, hardworking, and family oriented. They set an example some people here in the USA might want to admire and even take heed of. You said they "rape the Statue of Liberity for all she's worth - then leave" .... Come on now! That was downright rude and not true. At least they are not here to rape our Rainforests, our oil resources, our human resources, nor our poppy plants. They earn what they they get paid for doing - the old way.

Oh Techno, please give us a break. For cheap strawberries ??? Illegal immigrants, which I think some are referring to here, don't give a damn for their rain forests or legality. They only care about sneaking over the border to earn wages that make their home country's wages look like slavery. The total agricultural labor force, according to Tom Sowell, a PHD in economics and syndicated columnist, is composed of 25% illegals. Agriculture will not collapse if illegals don't harvest our strawberries. :rolleyes:

Prices will simply rise because wages will rise in order to fill the "jobs Americans won't do." Jobs Americans won't do is just another myth. If there weren't people that were illegally working these jobs Americans won't do, then wages would rise until the pay was acceptable to those who are willing and able to work.

Furthermore, according to Dr Sowell, 12 million able bodied men left the US for WWII in Europe and the economy didn't collapse. So, the 12 million current illegals could be deported. But that's another issue. It is probably too late to do anything about that situation, so those that are here will probably get to stay here by default.

You call these people honest. Do you call illegally sneaking across the border to work illegally honest ? I sure don't. I call people who apply for a work visa and enter the country legally honest.

If you think that people in the US should admire and emulate dishonest people who enter a country illegally, while other honest and hard working inmmigrants enter the country legally, then I think you have a perverted sense of honesty.

You should perhaps, reconsider your sense of honesty if both you and I really understand what you wrote in your post.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Technosoul It seems most posters take pride in being an American but feel that one political party or the other is putting mud on the face of that image we once took pride in.

There is only one party in power - the Republican/Democrat cabal.

Pride, it comes before the fall. According to the good book. Leading us on a downhill pathway - and down those poltical slippery slopes. Skid Row.

Pride in self is supposedly a sin, although the so-called Seven Deadly Sins are not in the Bible and therefore heretic. Pride in other things, not so much.

Once upon a time you could vacation at places around the world and when they saw you were an American you got the red carpet treatment, some respect, and the welcome signs were everywhere. Nowadays so many resent us for that "big bully" image that we somehow got, that we are lucky to make it back home safe and sound.

It depends on where you go. Old World Europeans might have that attitude, but it really stems from jealousy that our nation occupies the space at the top of the food chain that their nations once did. And by and large the ones that I have dealt with on an individual basis have not had an attitude about it.
Caribbeans, Latin Americans, and Asians for the most part still kiss the ground we walk on. And after throwing off the yoke of the European empires, the Africans are in such disarray they are asking for the new empire - the USA - to please help them more.

But then someone on vacation and someone else on a greedy business trip - two different birds.

A "greedy" business trip? Other than paying for underage hookers, how is an American coming to a nation on a business trip ever a bad thing for that place?

I am sure that bashing France can make us more popular world wide ....

Well, yeah, considering everyone else hates them, too.

Perhaps I should question if we still have America instead of if we still have pride in it. Where forth art thou oh Adam? "I'm in bed with my wife Eve trying to do all the wrong things right, Sir". Sounds like a party to me, a Hillbilly party. Behind every great President stands a trustworthy Intern. Clearly a happy President made for a productive country that had money to spare. Rather then one who is sexually bored to death, and especially when everyone in the country knows that your wife is smarter then you, and that she had to save you from your drug and booze addictions.

I don't even begin to guess where you're going with all this.

Mama don't bake no more Apple Pie. She is at the office trying to earn enough to pay for that new car from Japan, and for gasoline to get her to work, and for those prescription drugs that now cost ten times more then they used to cost. But she is look forward to retirement when she can relax on that $600 bucks a month Soc. Security check. Instead of apple pie she brings home some fast food hamburgers, as they chop down more of the Rainforest to raise more cows for those bugers, and then we sit around the TV set (when we can afford to pay the electric bills) and we watch West Wing - which make us proud to be an American. Proud to be one of the "4" who got that job, although she is up all night worried because they are thinking about outsorcing her job to India.

This doesn't represent everyone. My wife still bakes, she has never even had an "office" job, and gasoline is still relatively cheap. We have insurance for prescription drugs (private insurance! imagine that!). We don't ever intend to use Social Security and are planning adequately for a long, comfortable retirement. We don't eat much fast food (once a week at most) and most of our fast food - despite your unfounded accusations otherwise - comes from non-rainforest beef. We can afford our electric bill, never watch the "West Wing", and neither of us has a job or career or educational background that can EVER be outsourced.

Most two-income families do such because they want to, not because they need to. On average, we are healthier, live longer, and have more free time then people just a generation ago. One rarely reported upside to our obesity "epidemic" is the reason for it - by and large, Americans live a life that does not require much hard labor and has virtually no such thing as hunger.

I think political idiocy is the greatest challenge facing our country - that people blind themselves to politics and don't vote intelligently. If they did, i think the country would be pretty much utopia. As it is, I think we're doing very well despite the crutch that is our government.

[brien]

Quote by: Technosoul Our country is sort of like the gold rush days when everyone packed up wagons and went to California, or later on, when they packed up the buggy to go to California because of Hollywood, and because other jobs became plentiful. Following the Hollywood dream - the hope, the freedom, and a chance to get rich and to own a home or new car. Hollywood outlines what Ameirca is, John Wayne in a cowboy hat or off to war. James Dean rebelling - born to be wild. Monroe doing that Cadilac walk, Gidget on the beach, and then we had the drops out hippies who came to California with flowers in their hair, then came the Valley days as the computer era started to "get hot". "California we still a-comin', we will make it there if the car keeps a-runnin' ". (old hillbilly song). California also had it's share of the oil boom, and of course, farming is one of the main products of the state. Disneyland and other attracitons made it a tourest destination. It is a place for everyone to be what they wanna be - even gangsters can become heros. The music tells it all - Bluegrass, Big Bands, the Blues singer from the Delta, Rock and Roll, Disco, Dixieland, Redneck and Country music, Soul, R&B, Techno, Broadway, Mambo, Boogie Woogie, Surf intramentals, Beach music, Cajun and Swamp Pop, Popular (re: Frank Sinatra and Doris Day), Hillbilly, Rap, and those Oldies But Goodies (re: Lowrider music) and a flavoring the the Latin Beat (Santanna and Rick Martin -etc.). And the big Mega Mix. Turn it on, pump it up. Ameirca .... sweet home California. Amierca - the vanishing railroad, the jammed freeways, the country dirt roads, and.... and... Sunset Strip with all it's neon lights and other happenings. Chuck Berry singing "I'm so glad I'm livin' in the USA" ---- elaborations of pride in USA. Supersized meals, supersized churches, supersized everything - super dooper place. Politics and stand up comics - ain't we got fun? And besides that, we got lots of stuff to gripe about. superdopper gripes - what more can we ask for in a country?

"Do dada do do do do.... Livin in the USA, Do dadda do do do do.... Livin in the USA...


Where are ya going to? What are you gunna do? You think that it will be easy.......


Someone gimme a cheeseburger.

varooormmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

And he takes it, Lefty Muttersbox on the street side!"

Steve Miller Living in the USA.

[brien]

Quote by: tivodan1116 There is only one party in power - the Republican/Democrat cabal. Pride in self is supposedly a sin, although the so-called Seven Deadly Sins are not in the Bible and therefore heretic. Pride in other things, not so much. It depends on where you go. Old World Europeans might have that attitude, but it really stems from jealousy that our nation occupies the space at the top of the food chain that their nations once did. And by and large the ones that I have dealt with on an individual basis have not had an attitude about it. Caribbeans, Latin Americans, and Asians for the most part still kiss the ground we walk on. And after throwing off the yoke of the European empires, the Africans are in such disarray they are asking for the new empire - the USA - to please help them more. A "greedy" business trip? Other than paying for underage hookers, how is an American coming to a nation on a business trip ever a bad thing for that place? Well, yeah, considering everyone else hates them, too. I don't even begin to guess where you're going with all this. This doesn't represent everyone. My wife still bakes, she has never even had an "office" job, and gasoline is still relatively cheap. We have insurance for prescription drugs (private insurance! imagine that!). We don't ever intend to use Social Security and are planning adequately for a long, comfortable retirement. We don't eat much fast food (once a week at most) and most of our fast food - despite your unfounded accusations otherwise - comes from non-rainforest beef. We can afford our electric bill, never watch the "West Wing", and neither of us has a job or career or educational background that can EVER be outsourced. Most two-income families do such because they want to, not because they need to. On average, we are healthier, live longer, and have more free time then people just a generation ago. One rarely reported upside to our obesity "epidemic" is the reason for it - by and large, Americans live a life that does not require much hard labor and has virtually no such thing as hunger. I think political idiocy is the greatest challenge facing our country - that people blind themselves to politics and don't vote intelligently. If they did, i think the country would be pretty much utopia. As it is, I think we're doing very well despite the crutch that is our government.

Tivo: Well said, hats off to you.

I call the Republican / Democrats cabal "Republicrats"

My wife has worked in our home for the last 28 years. Raised two children and runs the household. Makes home made meals every night we are home, and washes the laundry, cleans the beathrooms, and makes the beds. We too have "dah.. dah... dah......PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE Oh my God. It cost so much....

We have our own "dah.dah.dah........RETIREMENT PLAN . Oh noooooooooooo You mean we shouldn't rely upon SS? :rolleyes:

The biggest challange facing the US is the political idiocy of the sheeple. They sacrifice their individualism at the altar of crooked politicians who are only as good as the bacon they bring back to their district. People are looking to the government in ever increasing numbers to solve the problems that they should solve themselves. Once they turn over each repsonsiblity to the government, not only will they never get it back, but more importantly, they lose another part of their indiviuality to the government which eventually will swallow thier freedom and liberty.

People make chocies in life and make tradeoffs in order to support those choices. And for others to make excuses for some people's poor choices that blame me or anyone else in society is just plain hogwash. It is the recent "it ain't your fault" and "one isn't responsible for one's own actions" mantra that have people blaming everyone but tthemselves for their lot in life.

My father always said to me: "Son you make your own bed in life. Be sure it is comfortable, because you have to lie in it."

Good advice in my book.

[lsbskins1]

Brien-

I really do want to not feel so antagonistic towards your positions, but then I just can't get over how you reduce things. Take for example this statement:

"People make chocies in life and make tradeoffs in order to support those choices. And for others to make excuses for some people's poor choices that blame me or anyone else in society is just plain hogwash. It is the recent "it ain't your fault" and "one isn't responsible for one's own actions" mantra that have people blaming everyone but tthemselves for their lot in life.

My father always said to me: 'Son you make your own bed in life. Be sure it is comfortable, because you have to lie in it.' "


I appriciate the truth of the idea of personal responsibility. I give it as much credence as you do. But not everyone in this world has the level of control over their life that you imply. Shit, not even everyone in the United States has that much control. I resent the implication that it is only the inability or laziness of an individual that keeps them from achieving. I am one of those "sheeple"you keep refering to and yet you imply to me that you are never insulting or condesending to me. I know you do not say "lsbskins, you are stupid or lazy and have only yourself to blame if you do not live a life of upper-middle class comfort." What you do is leave off the "lsbskins". Your father gave you sage advice. My mother and father divirced each other, both remarried and had second families. My father paid my mother the court ordered child support and considered his obligation over (from the monitary standpoint) and my mother left the alchoholic second husband after 10 or 11 years, and remarried when I was 17. Of course the step-father felt no obligation to help fund an education but because of the income level of my parents, I did not qualify for assistance, but neither would either parental set finance for me. So, I went to work full time and stated going to school fulltime as well. But then my Mom and second step-dad seperated and the money that I was using to pay for school was needed to support the household. So... look at all those bad choices I made: 1- I picked poorly in the parental unit department. 2- I had my mom marry an alcoholic. This affected my home enviroment and led to less than stellar performance in school. 3- I chose to be a lesbian and all that negitive energy and self-loathing that comes with that choice helped to make me pretty unhappy and unfocused in school as well. 4- I chose to have my dad decide that the child-support was enough and he had no further finincial obligation to me. 5- I picked a pretty finicially secure 3rd husband for my mom, but that was a poor choice for me personally, because as far as any lenders were concerned, I did not quailfy for grants or need based loans. 6- And just when it helped me to have my mom married, I chose that moment for her to get divorced and screwed up my cushy living arrangement where I worked a full time job and went to school fulltime. Boy, if I had it to do over again, I would have made some different choices.

Can you see why maybe I find you loathing of my poor choices a little insulting? If you can not, and insist that... oh, go ahead and explain to me how if I had really tried, I could be pulling down big money today.

[grandpa]

lsbskins1, some people refuse to acknowledge the complexities of life--the gray areas, if you will. I think Brien has a view of the world that is convenient for him, but one that does not explain a lot of everyday situations and problems, such as joblessness or being born into a poor family and having limited opportunities. There is also the fact that some people deserve some level of success but don't get it while certain types of scum rise to the surface.

Grandpa h.

[brien]

Quote by: grandpa lsbskins1, some people refuse to acknowledge the complexities of life--the gray areas, if you will. I think Brien has a view of the world that is convenient for him, but one that does not explain a lot of everyday situations and problems, such as joblessness or being born into a poor family and having limited opportunities. There is also the fact that some people deserve some level of success but don't get it while certain types of scum rise to the surface. Grandpa h.

Sure Gramps, Thomas Sowell who is a African American Economist and syndicated Columnist was born black poor and in the ghetto. He managed to achieve success in America. But his world is convenient for him. And thousands of other Blacks, Asians, Latins, etc, etc. :rolleyes:

There are so many examples of people being born poor and achieving success in the Capitalist system, I could never list them all. But you want to dwell on the negative. You want ot focus on people who you think, through no fault of their own, remain in poverty. Well if they do, it is largely because the government keeps them there.

The LBJ Great Society Welfare System institued by the government Democrats has done more to destroy the African American family than any other institution than slavery yet you and lsbskins continue to advocate government solutions such as these to eradicate poverty. You just don't get and probably never will get it.

You advocate government solutions when individuals are in the best position to help themselves. When people allow government to do for them that which they can do themselves, they become beholding to that government because they have sold out part of their individuality to the government which will then limit their liberty. Just like the welfare system.

I recognize there are indigent and I particpate in programs to help them. I do my part. It is not the government's repsonsibility to take care of people from cradle to grave. If that is what you want, and advocate, go to China. But you better damn well be prepared to work in your beloved collectives and communes. Because there is no welfare in China.

So, if I am ensconsed in the individual liberty tower, then you are ensconsed in the government control tower that limits your liberty and freedom. Pick your poison, I have mine. :)

[lsbskins1]

Brien-

We have had this go around before as well. Yes, there are limited examples of people rising from poverty to the hights of success, but that does not mean it is the norm. It is much more likely, as you go down the poverty roles, that you will find people mired in the same circumstances. But, where people are not stuck, if you scratch the surface, you will find a government grant funded education or need based assistance. Or lots of publicly funded education (K - 12, thank you very much). You advocate taking all of that away. In the very limited instances where your Horatio Alger fable is made real, it is almost always predicated on public assitance and/or public education through state funding for higher education, etc. You can not have it both ways, whatever the case. Mobility through the income levels would be a virtual impossibility without the programs you would scrap. I am only saying that the vision of a social mobility is a good vision, but a vision that is only possible if you accept the idea that a level playing field is necessary to achieve it and the only way to assure that level field is through government establishment of the level field.

[brien]

Quote by: lsbskins1 Brien- I really do want to not feel so antagonistic towards your positions, but then I just can't get over how you reduce things. Take for example this statement: "People make chocies in life and make tradeoffs in order to support those choices. And for others to make excuses for some people's poor choices that blame me or anyone else in society is just plain hogwash. It is the recent "it ain't your fault" and "one isn't responsible for one's own actions" mantra that have people blaming everyone but tthemselves for their lot in life. My father always said to me: 'Son you make your own bed in life. Be sure it is comfortable, because you have to lie in it.' " I appriciate the truth of the idea of personal responsibility. I give it as much credence as you do. But not everyone in this world has the level of control over their life that you imply. Shit, not even everyone in the United States has that much control. I resent the implication that it is only the inability or laziness of an individual that keeps them from achieving. I am one of those "sheeple"you keep refering to and yet you imply to me that you are never insulting or condesending to me. I know you do not say "lsbskins, you are stupid or lazy and have only yourself to blame if you do not live a life of upper-middle class comfort." What you do is leave off the "lsbskins". Your father gave you sage advice. My mother and father divirced each other, both remarried and had second families. My father paid my mother the court ordered child support and considered his obligation over (from the monitary standpoint) and my mother left the alchoholic second husband after 10 or 11 years, and remarried when I was 17. Of course the step-father felt no obligation to help fund an education but because of the income level of my parents, I did not qualify for assistance, but neither would either parental set finance for me. So, I went to work full time and stated going to school fulltime as well. But then my Mom and second step-dad seperated and the money that I was using to pay for school was needed to support the household. So... look at all those bad choices I made: 1- I picked poorly in the parental unit department. 2- I had my mom marry an alcoholic. This affected my home enviroment and led to less than stellar performance in school. 3- I chose to be a lesbian and all that negitive energy and self-loathing that comes with that choice helped to make me pretty unhappy and unfocused in school as well. 4- I chose to have my dad decide that the child-support was enough and he had no further finincial obligation to me. 5- I picked a pretty finicially secure 3rd husband for my mom, but that was a poor choice for me personally, because as far as any lenders were concerned, I did not quailfy for grants or need based loans. 6- And just when it helped me to have my mom married, I chose that moment for her to get divorced and screwed up my cushy living arrangement where I worked a full time job and went to school fulltime. Boy, if I had it to do over again, I would have made some different choices. Can you see why maybe I find you loathing of my poor choices a little insulting? If you can not, and insist that... oh, go ahead and explain to me how if I had really tried, I could be pulling down big money today.

Lsbskins. First, I am sorry for the suffering you have experienced in the past but it is no reason to give up on your life now. Look, I don't know you, or how you live, or the lifestyle choices you have made in life. Therefore my postings are not personally aimed at you, so quit accusing me of targeting you in my posts. Hey if the shoe fits wear it, but don't blame me for your condition in life or for being intransient towards your social condition

I don't care what has happened to you in your life. Everything you listed has probably happened to other successful people in their lives. You need to quit blaming others and begin to see that every day is another day in your life to change that which you aren't happy with now. No one else will do it for you. And no one else can do it for you. And no one else should do it for you. Get the idea?

I never said anything about laziness. You are inferring that from my post. Some people just go to work and are happy making a living and don't complain. They are happy in their lot in life. The poverty rates in the US are incredibly low compared to the rest of the world. So your myopic view of poverty in America I think is a bit uninformed.

Look, I was raised in a family that had their own business. My parents had motels, hotels and a restaurant. I worked my ass off from age 8 on up until I left at age 18 to attend college, which I mostly paid for then.

My father worked a fatory job as well. My mother had, and stll has, osteomyelitis on her left leg. A scar that never healed from ankle to knee. She worked 18 hour days. Both of my parents came from poor families. They worked their way into their success. They taught me to do the same.

I was broke when I was married in 1978. The rest you know. Point is, I know many, many people today, who make it in American Society because they find 100 ways to do something instead of 100 excuses why they can't do something. You need to find a positive attitude and begin to find 100 ways to accomplish what you want and not dwell on what you don't have today.

I don't know you or your lot in life, but it sounds as if you have given up and resigned yourself to a life of unhappiness. You can blame yourself, or you can blame someone else for your lot in life. Or you can get over looking for a scapegoat, pick yourself up, and get with the opportuunities that life presents everyone in America. This is your choice.

And don't hand me that shit about being a homosexual and self loathing. My younger brother is a homosexual and he is so secure in his abilities as a person, he has earned millions as a successful businessman in Florida. He also started with no money. Homosexuality has nothing to do with your social or economic condition in life . So get off that negative p.o.v.

You really should reconsider how you view life. Give yourself permission to go out and get what you want rather than dwelling upon what you don't have today and didn't have yesterday. You only have one life.

I could have given up when they said I had cancer. They gave me two years to live 5 years ago. I could have resigned myself to a life of dependence upon others but I refused to do so because I will continue to drive my own life as long as I can. You are healthy. You are able and capable of working in society. Your limitations are probably only self imposed so the sooner you throw off the blame game, and get with making all of your own opportunities in your life, the sooner you will see that we make our own success in life. Try it, you may enjoy it.

I apologize to others in this thread for getting personal but it seems I am sometimes personally attacked by others who seem to think I am an example of everything that is wrong with America. My apologies for the diversion. :(

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: brien Sure Gramps, Thomas Sowell who is a African American Economist and syndicated Columnist was born black poor and in the ghetto. He managed to achieve success in America. But his world is convenient for him. And thousands of other Blacks, Asians, Latins, etc, etc. :rolleyes: There are so many examples of people being born poor and achieving successs in the Capitalist system, I could never list them all. But you want to dwell on the negative. You want ot focus on people who you think, through no fault of their own, remain in poverty. Well if they do, it is largely because the government keeps them there.

You theory would contend that there is room for everybody who tries, and therefore if everybody tried, there is room for all to prosper.


Obviously that can't be true.


At least thats the flaw I see in this perspective.

[lsbskins1]

Yea, I just made that whole thing up about self-loathing. Of course, you do not know me and do not know that I did not end up letting it rule my life, but not before that very real major depressive episode that almost cost me my life because I thought that I was a horrible person who did not deserve to live (internalized hate from years of getting the social message that what I felt was evil and loathsome). That was all just me being stupid. And just because you have a brother who did not process in the same fashion does not mean I "made it up". God, you are so condesending! Give myself "permission"! Ok, I give myself permission to get the degree that would get me the better job. Shit, does permission pay the tuition? Does permission make my car payment in the meantime? Do you live in the same world as most people? When you say YOU managed to survive cancer, are you not trying to imply it is your stregnth and fortitude, in opposition to my lack thereof that has made you more successful than I? Is that not a personal attack on me, Mr. I Keep Getting Attacked On This Board?

Bahhh!

[Technosoul]

Quote by: brien Quote by: Technosoul Come on now, some bow their backs so you can have cheap strawberries, they work harded for the money they get then most Ameircans would even dream of attempting. And they do not send it to their country of orgins but to their families at home, for their kids, and even for their parents. They are honest, hardworking, and family oriented. They set an example some people here in the USA might want to admire and even take heed of. You said they "rape the Statue of Liberity for all she's worth - then leave" .... Come on now! That was downright rude and not true. At least they are not here to rape our Rainforests, our oil resources, our human resources, nor our poppy plants. They earn what they they get paid for doing - the old way. Oh Techno, please give us a break. For cheap strawberries ??? Illegal immigrants, which I think some are referring to here, don't give a damn for their rain forests or legality. They only care about sneaking over the border to earn wages that make their home country's wages look like slavery. The total agricultural labor force, according to Tom Sowell, a PHD in economics and syndicated columnist, is composed of 25% illegals. Agriculture will not collapse if illegals don't harvest our strawberries. :rolleyes: Prices will simply rise because wages will rise in order to fill the "jobs Americans won't do." Jobs Americans won't do is just another myth. If there weren't people that were illegally working these jobs Americans won't do, then wages would rise until the pay was acceptable to those who are willing and able to work. Furthermore, according to Dr Sowell, 12 million able bodied men left the US for WWII in Europe and the economy didn't collapse. So, the 12 million current illegals could be deported. But that's another issue. It is probably too late to do anything about that situation, so those that are here will probably get to stay here by default. You call these people honest. Do you call illegally sneaking across the border to work illegally honest ? I sure don't. I call people who apply for a work visa and enter the country legally honest. If you think that people in the US should admire and emulate dishonest people who enter a country illegally, while other honest and hard working inmmigrants enter the country legally, then I think you have a perverted sense of honesty. You should perhaps, reconsider your sense of honesty if both you and I really understand what you wrote in your post.

I would have to agree that some of the work force in the farming industry is done by holders of legal green cards, as they are called back to work each season by those employers. But I do not think that your PH.D is right, one man's opinon at any rate. Your Mr. Sowill might not know so well, being that he is not walking the streets of Bakersfield in their shoes. I think his name fits him well.

He might promote his self as an economics expert, but that did not impress me at all. Hogwash.

Now if some one in Mexico is honest with their self they might take the option of "sneaking" across th boarder, because honestly it is nearly impossible for them to do so legal like. Only a small percentage end up with the final green card (after proving they already have a job here). And you got miles of red tape and waiting time to legally cross. So if they are honest with their self they would comprehend that legal crossing is not likely to happen any time soon. And not all just sneak across, some pay upwards to $1000. for professional help in getting here - via the underground "guides and services" provided. It is not the same thing as sneaking into a football game without paying for a ticket. That would be dishonest. But Amreica is not selling tickets at the boarders to visit here.

Nearly all the jobs are listed in the help wanted pages or employment agent offices and any Ameircan that wants one can apply the same as someone from another country. Janitors, farm pickers, and so forth. Anyone can get a flatbed truck and try to make a living mowing lawns, go right ahead, what is stopping you? Do you think their is some sort of conspiriacy to hire only Mexicans at play in our culture? I think not.

The best defence agenst the unlawful hiring of undocumented people are your Unions. But our political system is attempting to force the unions out, and so who's fault is it?

Now those who come across the boarders to earn an honest buck are not really working cheaper then what the laws permits, they take jobs that pay what our political people would call a minium wage. (or a little over that). You want to work for those lawful wages - go ahead and apply, no one is locking you out, nor any Ameircan out. So wages are not at fault here as you or the PHD fellow suggested. If people don't like the wages then vote in some Unions or ask your political representives to raise the wage standards now in effect. But don't boo hoo that it is the faults of Mexican who are willing to work because " a man must do what a man must do, to earn a living".

I stand my ground.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Mostly I think we are patriotic. Patriotism is different for different people, but as a whole people are grateful to be here, and glad the ancestor's made the sacrifice to come here.

I have no desire to live anywhere else in the world. I like my "home, sweet home".