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SVMc · Apr 22, 2004, 12:49 pm

I have the "accepting" in brackets because the refugee applications haven't been process thus not accepted yet. Canada has a history of receiving Americans fleeing the draft, and recently articles started showing up about American soldiers who have come to Canada to avoid service in Iraq. I don't know how much this is in the American media.

Not in our name

Guardian Article

Village Voice

Right off the bat I figure there will be two general responses those that think they did the right thing and they had to and those that will name call and think them irresponsible.

Lets assume those two views cannot be reconciled. People on those two sides of the fence will never see eye to eye on this lets try to avoid the inevitable name calling.

So here's the question, is Canada undermining U.S. sovereignty when we accept Soldiers or Draft dodgers as refugees?

I'm undecided on this, personally I am against the draft, but these two soldiers volunteered. However I also know that many volunteer without ever expecting to see combat (naive yes, but not uncommon). On top of that there is the issue of the controversy over the legitimacy of the Iraqi war, this is not American's defending American soil (unless we count the oil fields if they have been purchased).

Evil Baby · Apr 22, 2004, 01:27 pm

I think accepting draft dogers and accepting those who have already volunteered for service is two different things.

I do not believe Canada should accept those who volunteered for service. I dont' really care if they don't believe in the war, they should believe in their job and doing thier duty to their country. That is what they signed up for and that is what they got. Shouldn't be runing from it now.

As for accepting draft dogers, that is a much more difficult questions for me. I'm divided on that issues. I personally don't like the draft but it is part of America and as an American citizen benefiting from all of thier rights some things must be accepted at certain points in time of history.

RightThinker · Apr 22, 2004, 02:16 pm

I agree. If you sign up you are signing up to go to war if need be. That is the only reason we have a standing military. Now I do not like them accepting draft dodgers either but it is not as bad.

Yes I do think they are undermining our sovereignty. Fleeing military service or AWOL or whatever is against the law. When they cross that border with the intention of dodgin then they are criminals and Canada should let us deal with our criminals the way we see fit.

SVMc · Apr 22, 2004, 02:19 pm

Just out of curiosity how does American deal with citizens who went AWOL?

I'm asking because I know Canada has resisted sending back people to America who would face capital punishment. I'm not sure on where the scale is on non-capital.

RightThinker · Apr 22, 2004, 02:21 pm

To tell you the truth I am not sure but I believe that the military courts handle it. It is far from capital though so there is no excuese.

RightThinker · Apr 22, 2004, 02:25 pm

Maximum punishment.

(1) Failing to go to, or going from, the appointed place of duty. Confinement for 1 month and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 1 month.

(2) Absence from unit, organization, or other place of duty.

(a) For not more than 3 days. Confinement for 1 month and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 1 month.
(b) For more than 3 days but not more than 30 days. Confinement for 6 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 6months.

© For more than 30 days. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.

(d) For more than 30 days and terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 18 months.

(3) From guard or watch. Confinement f o r 3 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 3 months.

(4) From guard or watch with intent to abandon. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.

(5) With intent to avoid maneuvers or field exercises. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.

I cant really find a better description of punishments anywhere.
This is the Source

SVMc · Apr 22, 2004, 02:52 pm

Thanks, seems reliable enough.

This is a huge question for me since Canada is suffering casulaities in Afghanistan, I could imagine a Canadian soldier wanting to do the same thing, however where would they go?

I guess it comes down to should a soldier have the right to back out of combat duty?

damnrad · Apr 22, 2004, 04:44 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SVMc,
I have the "accepting" in brackets because the refugee applications haven't been process thus not accepted yet. Canada has a history of receiving Americans fleeing the draft, and recently articles started showing up about American soldiers who have come to Canada to avoid service in Iraq. I don't know how much this is in the American media.

Not in our name

Guardian Article

Village Voice

Right off the bat I figure there will be two general responses those that think they did the right thing and they had to and those that will name call and think them irresponsible.

Lets assume those two views cannot be reconciled. People on those two sides of the fence will never see eye to eye on this lets try to avoid the inevitable name calling.

So here's the question, is Canada undermining U.S. sovereignty when we accept Soldiers or Draft dodgers as refugees?

I'm undecided on this, personally I am against the draft, but these two soldiers volunteered. However I also know that many volunteer without ever expecting to see combat (naive yes, but not uncommon). On top of that there is the issue of the controversy over the legitimacy of the Iraqi war, this is not American's defending American soil (unless we count the oil fields if they have been purchased).

Hell no! Thank you, Canada, for what you are hopefully about to do; and for what you did decades ago for an earlier generation of deserters and draft dodgers -- and a century before that, for accepting escaped slaves. Hey, I know it's not altruism -- by accepting those who won't endure slavery and who won't murder in the name of their own country's insanity, you not only do the world a favor, you acquire as new residents, perhaps one day citizens, the best, the brightest, and the most honest of young Americans.

If the monsters currently running U.S. starts talking about sovereignty, laugh in its face -- they don't know the meaning of the word other than as something to destroy when it gets in the way of their imperial wet dream.

SVMc · Apr 22, 2004, 10:16 pm

Well said, that's the kind of idealism that I would be best served if we didn't have all this legislation often making us the U.S.'s lap-dog.

Evil Baby · Apr 23, 2004, 12:58 am

Jean was trying to distance us from that but but Martin will throw us right back in as would Harper. I don't konw enough about Layton to judge so I'll leave him out of it.

I'd love for Canada to be the U.S.'s stongest and most trusted partner but I don't want us controlled by the U.S. like we so often are.

argonak · Apr 23, 2004, 03:47 am

The US does not currently have a draft, so all American soldiers are volunteers who signed a contract. If I signed a contract with a corparation to sign programming code for two years, would it be allright if I just ran off when I didn't want to do it anymore?

I can understand running away from a draft, even if I cannot respect it. But running away from something you volunteered to do. . . sounds more like cowardice.

Mr.Vicchio · Apr 23, 2004, 03:52 am

Read the UCMJ.

Running to canada is dumb anway, just pop on a piss test and you are out.

Mia · Apr 23, 2004, 06:02 am

Quote:

Originally posted by argonak,
The US does not currently have a draft, so all American soldiers are volunteers who signed a contract. If I signed a contract with a corparation to sign programming code for two years, would it be allright if I just ran off when I didn't want to do it anymore?

I can understand running away from a draft, even if I cannot respect it. But running away from something you volunteered to do. . . sounds more like cowardice.

People break employee contracts and pay the consequences monetarily. If an unjust war was going on I would encourage any man close to to dodge it any way he could. We should not be forced to go and die for a President's agenda that is against the people's will

Impenitent · Apr 23, 2004, 10:16 am

perhaps we should send all of our criminals north to become canadian citizens...

that sounds wonderful...

argonak · Apr 23, 2004, 02:39 pm

Quote:

People break employee contracts and pay the consequences monetarily. If an unjust war was going on I would encourage any man close to to dodge it any way he could. We should not be forced to go and die for a President's agenda that is against the people's will

Typically, contracts have breaking stipulations. Consider the punishments within the military ocntract to be the breaking stipulations.

In my opinion, if you sign to something, you should hold to it. To not do so is dishonest.

EDIT: Clarity

castille · Apr 24, 2004, 09:30 am

Nobody is forced to go to war.

This aint Russia.

Apr 22, 2004, 12:49 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	I have the "accepting" in brackets because the refugee applications haven't been process thus not accepted yet. Canada has a history of receiving Americans fleeing the draft, and recently articles started showing up about American soldiers who have come to Canada to avoid service in Iraq. I don't know how much this is in the American media. Not in our name Guardian Article Village Voice Right off the bat I figure there will be two general responses those that think they did the right thing and they had to and those that will name call and think them irresponsible. Lets assume those two views cannot be reconciled. People on those two sides of the fence will never see eye to eye on this lets try to avoid the inevitable name calling. So here's the question, is Canada undermining U.S. sovereignty when we accept Soldiers or Draft dodgers as refugees? I'm undecided on this, personally I am against the draft, but these two soldiers volunteered. However I also know that many volunteer without ever expecting to see combat (naive yes, but not uncommon). On top of that there is the issue of the controversy over the legitimacy of the Iraqi war, this is not American's defending American soil (unless we count the oil fields if they have been purchased). Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Apr 22, 2004, 02:16 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
RightThinker Molten Ash Location: St. Thomas U. S. V. I. Posts: 146	I agree. If you sign up you are signing up to go to war if need be. That is the only reason we have a standing military. Now I do not like them accepting draft dodgers either but it is not as bad. Yes I do think they are undermining our sovereignty. Fleeing military service or AWOL or whatever is against the law. When they cross that border with the intention of dodgin then they are criminals and Canada should let us deal with our criminals the way we see fit. "This country was founded and built by people with great dreams and the courage to take great risks." -Ronald Reagan- January 26, 1983

Apr 22, 2004, 02:19 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	Just out of curiosity how does American deal with citizens who went AWOL? I'm asking because I know Canada has resisted sending back people to America who would face capital punishment. I'm not sure on where the scale is on non-capital. Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Apr 22, 2004, 02:21 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
RightThinker Molten Ash Location: St. Thomas U. S. V. I. Posts: 146	To tell you the truth I am not sure but I believe that the military courts handle it. It is far from capital though so there is no excuese. "This country was founded and built by people with great dreams and the courage to take great risks." -Ronald Reagan- January 26, 1983

Apr 22, 2004, 02:25 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
RightThinker Molten Ash Location: St. Thomas U. S. V. I. Posts: 146	Maximum punishment. (1) Failing to go to, or going from, the appointed place of duty. Confinement for 1 month and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 1 month. (2) Absence from unit, organization, or other place of duty. (a) For not more than 3 days. Confinement for 1 month and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 1 month. (b) For more than 3 days but not more than 30 days. Confinement for 6 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 6months. © For more than 30 days. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year. (d) For more than 30 days and terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 18 months. (3) From guard or watch. Confinement f o r 3 months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month for 3 months. (4) From guard or watch with intent to abandon. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months. (5) With intent to avoid maneuvers or field exercises. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months. I cant really find a better description of punishments anywhere. This is the Source "This country was founded and built by people with great dreams and the courage to take great risks." -Ronald Reagan- January 26, 1983

Apr 22, 2004, 01:27 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Evil Baby Igneous Magma Posts: 313	I think accepting draft dogers and accepting those who have already volunteered for service is two different things. I do not believe Canada should accept those who volunteered for service. I dont' really care if they don't believe in the war, they should believe in their job and doing thier duty to their country. That is what they signed up for and that is what they got. Shouldn't be runing from it now. As for accepting draft dogers, that is a much more difficult questions for me. I'm divided on that issues. I personally don't like the draft but it is part of America and as an American citizen benefiting from all of thier rights some things must be accepted at certain points in time of history.

Apr 22, 2004, 02:52 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	Thanks, seems reliable enough. This is a huge question for me since Canada is suffering casulaities in Afghanistan, I could imagine a Canadian soldier wanting to do the same thing, however where would they go? I guess it comes down to should a soldier have the right to back out of combat duty? Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Apr 22, 2004, 10:16 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	Well said, that's the kind of idealism that I would be best served if we didn't have all this legislation often making us the U.S.'s lap-dog. Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Apr 23, 2004, 12:58 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Evil Baby Igneous Magma Posts: 313	Jean was trying to distance us from that but but Martin will throw us right back in as would Harper. I don't konw enough about Layton to judge so I'll leave him out of it. I'd love for Canada to be the U.S.'s stongest and most trusted partner but I don't want us controlled by the U.S. like we so often are.

Apr 23, 2004, 03:47 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
argonak Molten Ash Location: Kansas City Posts: 105	The US does not currently have a draft, so all American soldiers are volunteers who signed a contract. If I signed a contract with a corparation to sign programming code for two years, would it be allright if I just ran off when I didn't want to do it anymore? I can understand running away from a draft, even if I cannot respect it. But running away from something you volunteered to do. . . sounds more like cowardice.

Apr 23, 2004, 03:52 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,335	Read the UCMJ. Running to canada is dumb anway, just pop on a piss test and you are out. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Apr 23, 2004, 10:16 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	perhaps we should send all of our criminals north to become canadian citizens... that sounds wonderful... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Apr 24, 2004, 09:30 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Nobody is forced to go to war. This aint Russia. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.