Is it possible to have zero taxation?

[Captain Chaos]

Would it be possible to have an effective government that runs entirely on money obtained from people's payments for services it provides?

[tman_ndsu08]

Would it be possible to have any government without taxes?

Obviously no, as they need taxes to do anything.


If you mean to say is it possible for soceity to exist without taxes, I have to say yes.

Somalia is an example.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Would it be possible to have an effective government that runs entirely on money obtained from people's payments for services it provides?

It's possible. Quite a while back I started a post on a similar angle. I called it "voluntary line item taxation."

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Would it be possible to have any government without taxes? Obviously no, as they need taxes to do anything. If you mean to say is it possible for soceity to exist without taxes, I have to say yes. Somalia is an example.

Somalia is an example of Islamic warlordism, I thought.

Grandpa h.

[Apeman81]

Hmmm. Unemployment and welfare recipients standing in line with a money order so they can pick up there check? I think not

[Osborn F Enready]

IT IS POSSIBLE to have 0 taxation on non-business owning citizens, or small business owning citizens.

[Zhavric]

I'd prefer to see a consumption tax instead of an income tax. Individuals should be taxed on the amount they purchase / use / spend / etc rather than taxing what they earn.

The older I get (and the more I work for a bank) the more financially moderate I become. I'm not for wealth redistribution, but nor do I feel the playing field is even.

[US Independent]

The only conceivable way to run an effective government without taxes, is to rely more on private industry than socialistic concepts. The US government currently has hundreds of different departments and thousands of employees to run those departments. If we were to downsize all government programs and instead rely on private sectors, then theoretically we could rely on other sources of income other than taxes. At the very least, we would have extremely lower taxes. However this is an extreme gamble. We do not know if the private sector could replace the government. With the current set of senators and representatives in congress, I doubt we will see such a gamble take place.

[lsbskins1]

So, who will pay the army in the taxless society? The police? Teachers? Better yet, for all the Bushbots, who's gonna fund all those Haliburton contracts? I mean, though they are a "private "company, most of their income does come from government contracts. All those big defense contractors..., poof! the funding goes away. Where will those people all work? And all the folks who work for FEMA and EPA and FAA and FERC and all those other alphabet agencies...poof!, their jobs are gone. Good plan. Cause you will not believe the number of people who will not pay for what they are not "forced" to pay for. Will there be toll booths on every road to pay for their upkeep, is that how you will make that a "pay" service? If you lose your job and then can't pay the toll, how do you ever get back to work? Problems, problems, problems! How do we do it?

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: lsbskins1 So, who will pay the army in the taxless society?

Likely wouldn't/couldn't exist as it does today.

The police?

Likely wouldn't/couldn't exist as it does today.

Teachers?

That's easy, private schools.

Will there be toll booths on every road to pay for their upkeep, is that how you will make that a "pay" service?

That would be impossible.

A more likely solution would be something like RFID tags that you buy and then are scanned as you drive under a scanner, or something.

If you lose your job and then can't pay the toll, how do you ever get back to work?

Walk, bike, bus, etc.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Would it be possible to have an effective government that runs entirely on money obtained from people's payments for services it provides?

No its impossible.

[GHook93]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Would it be possible to have any government without taxes? Obviously no, as they need taxes to do anything. If you mean to say is it possible for soceity to exist without taxes, I have to say yes. Somalia is an example.

I hope your being sarcastic! lol I don't know much about Somalia's economic structure; however, Somalia should never be used as an example other than a failed society!!

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Likely wouldn't/couldn't exist as it does today. Likely wouldn't/couldn't exist as it does today. That's easy, private schools. That would be impossible. A more likely solution would be something like RFID tags that you buy and then are scanned as you drive under a scanner, or something. Walk, bike, bus, etc.

So, if you are born to poor parents, you never get the chance at an education. That makes poverty self perpetuating and puts the lie to the idea of the meriticracy you say you believe in...

If, in rural areas where there is no bus service, or bus service ceases to exist because it is supported with tax dollars, and it is not possible to bike or walk to work, you are "shit out of luck" and you and your kids are trapped in perpetual poverty and again, your meritocracy is out the freakin window.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: GHook93 Somalia should never be used as an example other than a failed society!!

Indeed!

They've failed in all those crucial places that make government societies so great!

They don't steal away your money in taxes, the don't force you to have insurance, they don't regulate your business, etc.


What a failure!

Quote by: lsbskins1 So, if you are born to poor parents, you never get the chance at an education.

Typical socialist nonsense.

There would be private schools catering to all income levels just as there are stores that cater to all income levels.

That makes poverty self perpetuating and puts the lie to the idea of the meriticracy you say you believe in...

Poverty is never self perpetuating.

Some people don't liek to work and would rather sit around all day watching TV and doing drugs and complaining about not getting enough free handouts.

Too bad for them.

If, in rural areas where there is no bus service, or bus service ceases to exist because it is supported with tax dollars, and it is not possible to bike or walk to work, you are "shit out of luck" and you and your kids are trapped in perpetual poverty and again, your meritocracy is out the freakin window.

Or, if you have even an ounce of sainity and intelligence, you move yourself and your family to the city and get a job.

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Typical socialist nonsense. There would be private schools catering to all income levels just as there are stores that cater to all income levels. Poverty is never self perpetuating. Some people don't liek to work and would rather sit around all day watching TV and doing drugs and complaining about not getting enough free handouts. Too bad for them. Or, if you have even an ounce of sainity and intelligence, you move yourself and your family to the city and get a job.

It is very hard for me to stay civil with people who spout plainly and demonstably false statements. Even if you could logically make the argument that poverty is not TYPICALLY or ALWAYS self perpetuating ( the first, maybe- the second, without much doubt), you can not argue that it is NEVER self perpetuating. Making those kind of absolute claims does not make your case stronger, it makes it absolute bullshit. And, if you set up a situation that significantly increases the possibility that you will create a self perpetuating set of circumstances, you show yourself to be careless and/or dishonest.

And if you do not have money to ride a bus, how are you going to move yourself, much less your entire family, to the city? It does take money to relocate an individual and it takes more of it to relocate a family.

Oh, and who do you think would get the "better positions" as a matter of course, those from the "wealthy schools" or those from the "poor schools", if they could actually even manage to fund a "poor school" (again, who will pay the teachers, who will buy the school books?) Even from a position of not having done anything more than "consider the possible problems", (no funding, no studies) I have found significant problems with your plan.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: lsbskins1 Even if you could logically make the argument that poverty is not TYPICALLY or ALWAYS self perpetuating, you can not argue that it is NEVER self perpetuating.

I can. Easily.

Every person has personal responsibilty for themselves. Not what happened in the past.


What's that you say? You grew up in the ghetto with 8 siblings and a mom who didn't work and smoked crack all day?


I don't care. I don't know you. You ain't getting a free hand out from me. You could be trying to rip me off for all I know.


Move on with your life, stop trying to use your situation as an excuse and get a freakin job.

And if you do not have money to ride a bus, how are you going to move yourself, much less your entire family, to the city? It does take money to relocate an individual and it takes more of it to relocate a family.

I haven't the slightest clue.

Walk to town. Live behind a dumpster until you can afford a seedy motel. Etc.

Either that or give up and die.

Your choice.


People in other countries have had it much harder than that but have chosen to live.

Make a choice.

Oh, and who do you think would get the "better positions" as a matter of course, those from the "wealthy schools" or those from the "poor schools", if they could actually even manage to fund a "poor school" (again, who will pay the teachers, who will buy the school books?) Even from a position of not having done anything more than "consider the possible problems", (no funding, no studies) I have found significant problems with your plan.

You're asking me to tell the future.

Trust me, if I had the solution as to how to make a profit on a business plan of low income private schools, I'd be out there making money right now.


The market finds a way. Where there is profit there is a way.


If they can make stores that cater to low income families, they can make schools that do the same thing.


And also consider that not everyone needs formal education.


What good is biology, western european history, creative writing, etc. going to do a future construction worker?

Wasted time and wasted money.

[grandpa]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Every person has personal responsibilty for themselves. Not what happened in the past. .

Tell that to children who were born in poverty and have little to no chance of education, healthcare, etc.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 What's that you say? You grew up in the ghetto with 8 siblings and a mom who didn't work and smoked crack all day? .

That's not the situation for everybody. Your simple mind might not comprehend that, but it's true.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 I don't care. I don't know you. You ain't getting a free hand out from me. You could be trying to rip me off for all I know. .

Why should the rich be the only ones able to rip people off?

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Move on with your life, stop trying to use your situation as an excuse and get a freakin job. .

1. Not every poor person can get a job quickly, even if they try.
2. Poverty is based on more than an excuse. It is a matter of policy, with the excuses not only coming from the poor. In fact, we're seeing YOUR excuses for poverty right now.
3. It's hard to move on with life when economic strangulation holds people back.
Most people are systematically preventing from living a normal life. And there's a reason for that--people are suppposed to be utterly dependent on the protection racket of state capitalism.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Walk to town. Live behind a dumpster until you can afford a seedy motel. Etc. Either that or give up and die. Your choice. .

These three statements contradict themselves. These are the choices your system provides--not the choice of the poor alone.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 The market finds a way. Where there is profit there is a way. .

A way to exploit people and make them lazy and utterly dependent. A way to make people think they could not exist without debt-creating institutions.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 If they can make stores that cater to low income families, they can make schools that do the same thing. .

They can, but they probably wouldn't under your ideal capitalism. Certain people would have to monopolize knowledge while the rest are kept ignorant through policy.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 And also consider that not everyone needs formal education. .

It depends on what you mean by "formal," of course. If you mean education where ignorance is maintained, then sure--no one needs that. But I think people do need decent education if they want to actually advance as a society.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 What good is biology, western european history, creative writing, etc. going to do a future construction worker? .

The same amount of good it could do anyone. But it wouldn't do any good for your ideal society, where ignorance is a blessing and people can only do one task for most of their lives and be ignorant of everything else.

Grandpa h.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: grandpa Tell that to children who were born in poverty and have little to no chance of education, healthcare, etc.

They have as much chance as they have incentive.

It's not my job to personally fund them.

1. Not every poor person can get a job quickly, even if they try.

Yes they can.

2. Poverty is based on more than an excuse. It is a matter of policy, with the excuses not only coming from the poor. In fact, we're seeing YOUR excuses for poverty right now.

Poor people are poor because they choose to be.

3. It's hard to move on with life when economic strangulation holds people back. Most people are systematically preventing from living a normal life. And there's a reason for that--people are suppposed to be utterly dependent on the protection racket of state capitalism.

Marxist properganda that doesn't even make sense in the context of this thread.

Take your pamphlets somewhere else.

These three statements contradict themselves. These are the choices your system provides--not the choice of the poor alone.

These are not the only choices they have.

They have many other choices.

A way to exploit people and make them lazy and utterly dependent. A way to make people think they could not exist without debt-creating institutions.

More marxist gobbledygook.

They can, but they probably wouldn't under your ideal capitalism. Certain people would have to monopolize knowledge while the rest are kept ignorant through policy.

All it takes is a business plan and profit can be made.

The same amount of good it could do anyone.

IE, zero good for anyone not going into teaching those fields.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Haha! No taxes? I would love to see some stupid politician proposing this just to see how fast the National Guard cuts off the TV signal.

[grandpa]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 They have as much chance as they have incentive. It's not my job to personally fund them.

No, it's our job to take money from them when we can, right?

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Yes they can.

Provide a shred of evidence suggesting people can always find work.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Poor people are poor because they choose to be.

Again, provide some evidence of this. Show me how children choose to be born with poor parents, or that parents want to be poor. The rich make decisons too, and often they end up keeping people in debt, dependent and ignorant.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Marxist properganda that doesn't even make sense in the context of this thread. Take your pamphlets somewhere else.

Pleas address my point: That state capitalism is like a protection racket. Calling me a Marxist (or whatever) is irrelevant.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 These are not the only choices they have. They have many other choices.

Like what? You admitted there is one choice allowed.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 More marxist gobbledygook.

Nice refutation. But show me how debt-creating institutions do not exist to take advantage over people.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 All it takes is a business plan and profit can be made.

Business plans which encourage the monopolization of knowledge, as you highlighted earlier.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 IE, zero good for anyone not going into teaching those fields.

It is not "zero good" for people to learn various things. But, then again, it may be "zero good" for certain people if the majority would be intelligent and independent-spirited.

Grandpa h .