Why do the soldiers serve?

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Right. Almost all the Vietnam veterans I have spoken to "came out knowing." And you can bet a lot of Irq war vets will come out knowing too.

Knowing means to me learning something, and I think they all learned a lot.

[Cephus]

Unfortunately, a lot of people in the military are there because they get a free college education. They didn't go in wanting to, or expecting to, ever having to fight. It's sad seeing these people and their families whining and complaining about soldiers getting shot at.

IT'S THEIR JOB! That's what they're getting paid for! If they didn't want to be bullet backstops, they shouldn't have joined the military to begin with!

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Autolykos I'm sorry, but they're not serving me freedom. My freedom is independent of US military "adventures" overseas. Indeed, my freedom is independent of the US government and military period (although they would like to think otherwise). Chris the Chees brought up a great poem, The Charge of the Light Brigade, which chronicles the 1850s Crimean War between Great Britain and Russia. Let me quote from another great poem: My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori. -- Wilfred Owen, Dulce et Decorum Est (1917) For those who do not know, the Latin phrase "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" literally means "it is sweet and proper to die for the fatherland". - Rob

Has your freedom or your ancestor's freedom always been independent of the US?

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Apeman81 Discussing the efficacy or appropriateness of the current war in Iraq is the right of every American. It embodies the freedom this nation was founded upon. As does volunteering to serve in the armed forces in support of the war. Is it noble to do so? Are the men and women serving in our volunteer military doing so out of a sense of duty? A desire to spread freedom? Some of the posters who oppose the war on this board call the war “illegal”, and an “occupation”. Others state un-categorically that the war cannot be won. To them, I ask, why are the millions of men an women risking their lives in an all volunteer military to carry out the stated goal of the administration they serve doing so? Are they blind to obvious? Do they ignore the facts? Do they hate Iraqis? Do they like killing?

They're trained not to question orders and can be jailed for refusing orders. It's not their call once they sign on.

Was Richard Belzer right when he said of a soldier (it) “Doesn't mean he's a brilliant scholar about the war because he's there”. Or "You think everyone over there is a college graduate? They're 19 and 20-year-old kids who couldn't get a job.”

Try this statement on for size. See if it feels "correct":

"Every soldier has experienced all sides of the conflict, not just the experience as a fighting troop." and "The majority of soldiers who sign on to serve after high school have college degrees."

Think either one of those statements are valid?

So I ask you, why do the soldiers serve?

Why have soldiers ever served in any war dating back to the beginning of voluntary service? They've been memetically influenced to believe that there's something noble about serving in a war and that the perceived good outweighs the perceived bad. The problem is there's almost zero actual good and mountains of actual bad.

Now let's talk about the Pentagon's reports about how citizens are lining up to enlist in record numbers... lows that is...

[brien]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe They are serving the people freedom. I think knowing it's for freedom is a big part of how they are trained. They may go in with no idea what they are doing, but they come out knowing. The military will change a person from what I've been told. Seems it would have to. You'd have to be looking at a bigger picture.

Marilyn: Oh such a rosey platitutde, "serving people freedom" . I can't for the life of me how you think freedom involves soldiers in the streets, IED's exploding on every other corner, kidnappings, beheadings, and the murder of judges. The Sunnis and the Shiites have been fueding for years, if not centuries. There is no freedom in Iraq, Afghanistan, or even in the US.

Maybe 156 years ago there was freedom here in the US but it certainly doesn't really exist anymore. It is just another term that the government would like you to believe so you will support their imperialists tenticles that wrap around the entire globe.

Freedom, indeed. :rolleyes:

[bishop]

i tend to pity the people who join the military in general - because rarely are they sent off to actually defend our country, and rarely do these volunteer soldiers come from well-off families... the military preys on the poor, uneducated, underpriviledged, etc. - all for a very good reason.

they join for their own reasons, just like i chose not to enlist. i also don't think that they're special because they chose to enlist. for the ones who fervently support our imperial goals, i find them as just as despicable as the political sob's that sent them there in the first place.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe I guess you mean negative, and that's different from what I've experienced, but mine may be a smaller group, or just different in some way. All wars would have the same potential for negativity in my estimation.

I disagree. Since the Korean war NO wars have been fought in defense of this country, and that is the only good reason to use our military strength. The Communist boogeyman was the same as the "terrorist" boogeyman. It was to scare the ignorant only. There was no real threat to the US from N. Vietnam and there is no hotbed of international terrorism in Iraq, although to listen to Bush you would think so. The Vietnam war was originally about getting the French out, if memory serves and this war is about getting US out.

And what have you experienced? I'm assuming you are too young to have served in Vietnam so I assume veterans have told you how they felt.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe Knowing means to me learning something, and I think they all learned a lot.

Yes, they learned the war they were sent to fight was was a political war, it was fought by politicians at the expense of the troops and they knew they couldn't tell the "enemies" from the friendlies. Sound familiar?

[Apeman81]

Interesting how far down the list a sense of patriotism is placed here.

Sure, most of the "soldiers" I knew joined with some personal reasons in mind. But when the call to duty came, the men and women I knew evidenced a strong sense of "duty to country" when they packed their bags, kissed their families, hefted their weapons and climbed in aircraft and ships to join the battle.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Apeman81 Interesting how far down the list a sense of patriotism is placed here. Sure, most of the "soldiers" I knew joined with some personal reasons in mind. But when the call to duty came, the men and women I knew evidenced a strong sense of "duty to country" when they packed their bags, kissed their families, hefted their weapons and climbed in aircraft and ships to join the battle.

No, most of them never cared a whit about patriotism, they were there for the G.I. Bill and other perks. I can't tell you how many military people I've run into who hate the idea of actually having to go to war, it's getting in the way of their free job training.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Apeman81 Interesting how far down the list a sense of patriotism is placed here. Sure, most of the "soldiers" I knew joined with some personal reasons in mind. But when the call to duty came, the men and women I knew evidenced a strong sense of "duty to country" when they packed their bags, kissed their families, hefted their weapons and climbed in aircraft and ships to join the battle.

And they were all the more foolish for it, IMHO.

"Duty to country"? Forget that. :rolleyes:

- Rob

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Apeman81 Interesting how far down the list a sense of patriotism is placed here.

How so? Is ONE post about the British military supposed to reflect the entire thread?

I believe a LOT of people join the US military for what they believe are patriotic reasons, particularly those who enlisted after 9/11. However, that doesn't mean they weren't lied to. Politicians use patriotism as a tool all the time, much like you are using it now. All the more sad that these people who joined for the RIGHT reasons are being killed for NO reason.

[Chris]

Quote by: Apeman81 Discussing the efficacy or appropriateness of the current war in Iraq is the right of every American. It embodies the freedom this nation was founded upon. As does volunteering to serve in the armed forces in support of the war. Is it noble to do so? Are the men and women serving in our volunteer military doing so out of a sense of duty? A desire to spread freedom? Some of the posters who oppose the war on this board call the war “illegal”, and an “occupation”. Others state un-categorically that the war cannot be won. To them, I ask, why are the millions of men an women risking their lives in an all volunteer military to carry out the stated goal of the administration they serve doing so? Are they blind to obvious? Do they ignore the facts? Do they hate Iraqis? Do they like killing? Was Richard Belzer right when he said of a soldier (it) “Doesn't mean he's a brilliant scholar about the war because he's there”. Or "You think everyone over there is a college graduate? They're 19 and 20-year-old kids who couldn't get a job.” Was Bill Maher correct when he said “Belzer's point was that a 19-year-old is in the army “because he probably couldn't find other employment”. The celebrities are unimportant. The sentiments they demonstrate are, however, real. So I ask you, why do the soldiers serve?

I say all of your answers are right.

You get all types. Guys who would love nothing more than to go and be deployed. You also have guys who just joined cause they came from a poor area and a nice fat Govt. Bonus check sounded like a good idea.

Then you have guys who join to escape family life, and again, escape poverty. Some guys join cause they have no option for college, and see the military as a step in the right direction with their education.

I served 6 years in the army, and 2 years reserve. I went in partly to serve my country. I had always thought about joining the army even as a kid. And also partly to get an education in electronics.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Scribbler1 I disagree. Since the Korean war NO wars have been fought in defense of this country, and that is the only good reason to use our military strength. The Communist boogeyman was the same as the "terrorist" boogeyman. It was to scare the ignorant only. There was no real threat to the US from N. Vietnam and there is no hotbed of international terrorism in Iraq, although to listen to Bush you would think so. The Vietnam war was originally about getting the French out, if memory serves and this war is about getting US out. And what have you experienced? I'm assuming you are too young to have served in Vietnam so I assume veterans have told you how they felt.

Actually most of the vets I know never speak negativly about Vietnam, but not everybody had a bad time over there. Not everybody is having a bad time in Iraq. Some do, some don't. It is dangerous, I have no doubt about that.

My understanding of Vietnam was the South Vietnamese asked us for help.

I think with Iraq, you either think we do have a large terrorist threat that needed calmed, or you don't. You may think we could have done it differently, say with intelligence, not force. You also may think that we didn't need to mess with Iraq cause it was no threat, and I understand that, but some may think it's more that Iraq was vulnerable, and we could get in the area and be visible, plus if Saddam had had weapons everything would have gotten all the more dangerous for us.

I'm probably as old as you are. I grew up with Vietnam on the TV every night.

[tinybear]

My Grandpa and dad were both in the military. Funny I never asked why they served. Too late to ask Gramps now. He's gone. Think I'll ask Dad.

Be right back, folks.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: bishop i tend to pity the people who join the military in general - because rarely are they sent off to actually defend our country, and rarely do these volunteer soldiers come from well-off families... the military preys on the poor, uneducated, underpriviledged, etc. - all for a very good reason. they join for their own reasons, just like i chose not to enlist. i also don't think that they're special because they chose to enlist. for the ones who fervently support our imperial goals, i find them as just as despicable as the political sob's that sent them there in the first place.

I think to some degree you may be right, but we have a friend who was in the Guard for years, and he had a high paying regular job. Apparently he just liked the military.

Plus, everybody can't be rich, and this is a fact of life at this time, so this is an avenue for some to have a better life.

Everybody that goes in doesn't have a bad experience.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Autolykos And they were all the more foolish for it, IMHO. "Duty to country"? Forget that. :rolleyes: - Rob

We are all foolish in one way or another. Going into the military shows a certain amount of bravery to me. It's a hard life to have to get up, follow orders, all of it. Try carrying a backpack around all day in the office that weighs 30 pounds, or 50 pounds. Tough going. Plus, they know they might be in danger, and they still do it. This is bravery.

[tinybear]

OK, here goes: Dad said he enlisted 'cos it was the 'right' thing to do, i.e. it was right to save the world from the commies whose values run contrary to everything America stands for. Hmmm, makes sense to you? Or not?

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Cephus No, most of them never cared a whit about patriotism, they were there for the G.I. Bill and other perks. I can't tell you how many military people I've run into who hate the idea of actually having to go to war, it's getting in the way of their free job training.

Job training that many never use.

I've run into tons of guys who are doing warehouse work that were in the military.

The GI Bill doesn't pay the whole bill for college, it's pays only so much, and you pay the rest.

The people who go in make very low wages. They have some perks, but they should have perks they are defending our country whether you believe in what they are doing or not, they are still sacrificing a normal life, so you can sit in front of your TV, or hop in your car to get a can of soda.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe ...they are defending our country whether you believe in what they are doing or not, they are still sacrificing a normal life, so you can sit in front of your TV, or hop in your car to get a can of soda.

IF there was military threat to defend against, US soldiers would be there for the task. But...as of the past fifty years they have been an aggressive tool for US globalist Empire. They contribute to my freedom to purchase soda not one little bit. In fact you could say that the US military and the subsequent tax burden for supporting it, are the cause of my enslavement to Uncle Sammy...