Defend Murtha's comments on Haditha

[Apeman81]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...urtha.marines/

"They actually went into the houses and killed women and children,"

"There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood,"

"Marines killed at least 30 innocent Iraqi civilians "in cold blood"

Murtha was not there. The investigation has not been completed. He does not know what he is saying to be fact. He is an elected official of the Federal government.

In view of his official position, defend his declaration of guilt. Freedom of speech? Laws against slander. Let's discuss this like adults.

[Jack]

I think we all here in Volconvo know what a fool you appear to be when you state your opinions as facts. He should have qualified his remarks, and if any of those Marines are acquitted and decide to sue him over his remarks, he may well wish he had. If they're all convicted, he'll look like a wise man and the inappropriatness of his comments will be forgotten.

[RickSp]

Murtha as a decorated Marine and a senator with extremely close ties to the military gets his information directly from officers in the field. He is repeating what he was told and has said as much. Several things are pretty well established, even if Ape is in denial.

- at least two dozen civilians are dead
- contrary to the initial statement by the military, which has never been retracted, these civilians were not killed by an IED.
- the Marines did kill the civilians, all of whom died from bullet wounds to the head or chest.

Two things that I do find very odd in this thread:

The US military, not John Murtha, has been holding seven young Marines and a Navy corpsman in a military brig in leg and wrist shackles - despite the fact that they've not been charged with any crime. The men are in solitary confinement, at San Diego's Camp Pendleton. Not sure why Ape doesn't seem at all concerned by that, though I have never seen him critical of anything the US military does. Why are Murtha's statements so terrible as compared to holding US personnel without charge?

Murtha speaks plainly. Perhaps he should have inserted the obligatory caveats of the day - the "alleged" murders and so on, but I have far more respect for someone who tries to tell the truth than those who make excuses for people who seem to lie for a living .

I also find it odd that so many are more upset about Murtha's trying to tell the truth than by the deaths of women, children, and old men? Interesting that the one man who does try to tell the truth, however imperfectly, becomes the target of the right wing attacks. There is something very troubling about the values of those who dismiss civilian deaths while getting worked up over whether or not a senior senator misspoke. Do Iraqi lives have such little value that they can be so blithely ignored?

[The Dunedan]

There's not much to defend, Apeman. These asshat Jarheads took video and still photographs, for God's sake! These pictures even show large quantities of what is easily identifiable as 5.56mm rifle brass ( which the Iraqis don't use ) on the floors of the houses in question. Nobody gets to bitch about being called a murderer when they took boastful videos and photographs of the aftermath of the murders in question.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: The Dunedan There's not much to defend, Apeman. These asshat Jarheads took video and still photographs, for God's sake! These pictures even show large quantities of what is easily identifiable as 5.56mm rifle brass ( which the Iraqis don't use ) on the floors of the houses in question. Nobody gets to bitch about being called a murderer when they took boastful videos and photographs of the aftermath of the murders in question.

I'm not surprised. After all, dehumanizing the enemy seems to be an inevitable behavior in warfare. Certainly the wannabe-sailors are guilty of such a thing.

(Yes, I am insulting the Marine Corps. Deal with it.)

The point is, warfare is the greatest tragedy imaginable in human experience. We would do well if we took care to avoid it at all costs.

- Rob

[grandpa]

Quote by: Autolykos I'm not surprised. After all, dehumanizing the enemy seems to be an inevitable behavior in warfare.

Not only is the enemy de-humanized, but the military converts soldiers on all sides into machines acting on behalf of the government.

Grandpa h.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: grandpa Quote by: Autolykos I'm not surprised. After all, dehumanizing the enemy seems to be an inevitable behavior in warfare. Not only is the enemy de-humanized, but the military converts soldiers on all sides into machines acting on behalf of the government. Grandpa h.

Isn't that the point of a soldier? To be a human killing machine?

- Rob

[grandpa]

Quote by: Autolykos Isn't that the point of a soldier? To be a human killing machine?

Yep. That's why people around the world need to wake up and challenge these institutions that turn people into disposable machines. Rarely ever do they act in genuine self-defense. The US has been flying around the world and dropping bombs for decades, yet we act surprised when others finally decide to attack us.

Civilians don't deserved to be slaughtered here nor there, but if we depend on such warfare we can expect retribution.

Grandpa h.

[RickSp]

Anyone want lessons in how to lose a guerilla war? A video of an alleged Marine singing a song called "Haji girl" about killing civilians is spreading across the net and the cable news shows.

The US marines have launched a probe into a video posted on the internet that apparently shows a marine singing about the killing of Iraqi civilians. The four-minute song includes graphic descriptions of killings, real or imagined. Dressed in a green T-shirt and military style trousers and boots, a man sings: "I grabbed her little sister and put her in front of me. "As the bullets began to fly, the blood sprayed from between her eyes, and then I laughed maniacally."

'Kill Iraqis marine song' probe

CAIR: Pentagon Calls Online Song 'Insensitive,' 'Inappropriate'; Music Video 'Contrary to the High Standards Expected of All Marines'

O Iraqis, they make songs now celebrating your deaths!

I wonder how the right wing will try to blame this one on Jack Murtha.

[grandpa]

Quote by: RickSp Anyone want lessons in how to lose a guerilla war? A video of an alleged Marine singing a song called "Haji girl" about killing civilians is spreading across the net and the cable news shows.

I've noticed how just about everything the military does is
"clearly inappropriate and contrary to the standards of the marines."
Has this video made Ifilms yet?

Grandpa h.

[RickSp]

Quote by: grandpa I've noticed how just about everything the military does is "clearly inappropriate and contrary to the standards of the marines." Has this video made Ifilms yet? Grandpa h.

I saw it being reported on MSNBC this morning. I think the Marines got the original pulled but copies are floating around. Great propaganda for the insurgents and their allies.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: The Dunedan There's not much to defend, Apeman. These asshat Jarheads took video and still photographs, for God's sake! These pictures even show large quantities of what is easily identifiable as 5.56mm rifle brass ( which the Iraqis don't use ) on the floors of the houses in question. Nobody gets to bitch about being called a murderer when they took boastful videos and photographs of the aftermath of the murders in question.

Of bodies. No images of the shootings exist. And the cell phone shot has been debunked.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: RickSp Murtha as a decorated Marine and a senator with extremely close ties to the military gets his information directly from officers in the field. He is repeating what he was told and has said as much. Several things are pretty well established, even if Ape is in denial. - at least two dozen civilians are dead - contrary to the initial statement by the military, which has never been retracted, these civilians were not killed by an IED. - the Marines did kill the civilians, all of whom died from bullet wounds to the head or chest. Two things that I do find very odd in this thread: The US military, not John Murtha, has been holding seven young Marines and a Navy corpsman in a military brig in leg and wrist shackles - despite the fact that they've not been charged with any crime. The men are in solitary confinement, at San Diego's Camp Pendleton. Not sure why Ape doesn't seem at all concerned by that, though I have never seen him critical of anything the US military does. Why are Murtha's statements so terrible as compared to holding US personnel without charge? Murtha speaks plainly. Perhaps he should have inserted the obligatory caveats of the day - the "alleged" murders and so on, but I have far more respect for someone who tries to tell the truth than those who make excuses for people who seem to lie for a living . I also find it odd that so many are more upset about Murtha's trying to tell the truth than by the deaths of women, children, and old men? Interesting that the one man who does try to tell the truth, however imperfectly, becomes the target of the right wing attacks. There is something very troubling about the values of those who dismiss civilian deaths while getting worked up over whether or not a senior senator misspoke. Do Iraqi lives have such little value that they can be so blithely ignored?

The point is that prior to the conclusion and release of information gathered by the investigation, his comments are innapropriate. His assertions as to the mindset (in cold blood) of the marines before the facts are acertained is deplorable.

BTW, here's an interesting twist to this:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...1822-1212r.htm

Marine may call Murtha as witness

By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
June 15, 2006

"Attorney Neal A. Puckett told The Washington Times that Gen. Michael Hagee, the Marine commandant, briefed Rep. John P. Murtha, Pennsylvania Democrat, on the Nov. 19 killings of 24 Iraqis in the town north of Baghdad. Mr. Murtha later told reporters that the Marines were guilty of killing the civilians in "cold blood." Mr. Murtha said he based his statement on Marine commanders, whom he did not identify.
Mr. Puckett said such public comments from a congressman via senior Marines amount to "unlawful command influence." He said potential Marine jurors could be biased by the knowledge that their commandant, the Corps' top officer, thinks the Haditha Marines are guilty."

Scoring Political points can result in collateral damage, it seems.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Apeman81 Quote by: The Dunedan There's not much to defend, Apeman. These asshat Jarheads took video and still photographs, for God's sake! These pictures even show large quantities of what is easily identifiable as 5.56mm rifle brass ( which the Iraqis don't use ) on the floors of the houses in question. Nobody gets to bitch about being called a murderer when they took boastful videos and photographs of the aftermath of the murders in question. Of bodies. No images of the shootings exist. And the cell phone shot has been debunked.

If you'll notice, The Dunedan did not claim that images of the shootings did exist. Thus, the point you've made is rather moot. :rolleyes:

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Apeman81 The point is that prior to the conclusion and release of information gathered by the investigation, his comments are innapropriate. His assertions as to the mindset (in cold blood) of the marines before the facts are acertained is deplorable.

Are they as deplorable as the 24 deaths themselves? Answer me that, if you will.

Quote by: Apeman81 BTW, here's an interesting twist to this: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...1822-1212r.htm Marine may call Murtha as witness By Rowan Scarborough THE WASHINGTON TIMES June 15, 2006 "Attorney Neal A. Puckett told The Washington Times that Gen. Michael Hagee, the Marine commandant, briefed Rep. John P. Murtha, Pennsylvania Democrat, on the Nov. 19 killings of 24 Iraqis in the town north of Baghdad. Mr. Murtha later told reporters that the Marines were guilty of killing the civilians in "cold blood." Mr. Murtha said he based his statement on Marine commanders, whom he did not identify. Mr. Puckett said such public comments from a congressman via senior Marines amount to "unlawful command influence." He said potential Marine jurors could be biased by the knowledge that their commandant, the Corps' top officer, thinks the Haditha Marines are guilty." Scoring Political points can result in collateral damage, it seems.

Of course, it goes without saying that none of this would have ever happened if "we" had never gone there in the first place.

- Rob

[RickSp]

Quote by: Apeman Of bodies. No images of the shootings exist.

LOL. I see now that you require actual footage of the crime itself. You probably know that the as of yet uncharged defendents through their lawyers have admitting killing the civilians but claim that the killing of these women, old men, and small children falls within the "established rules of engagement." Are you still denying that the Marines killed the civilians?

Lawyers Defend Marines in Raid

[Apeman81]

I deny, as I have since the story broke, that it is right and just to conclude guilt for the marines of "cold blooded murder" until the facts are established, reviewed, and adjudicated.

I deny, as I consisently have, that now is the time to use this issue to gain political points.

I deny that it is proper for an elected official to declare quilt, despite what information unidentified people have supposedly told him.

As for proof that I would require to adjudicate the marine's gult, still photos of dead bodies does not demonstrate how those bodies became dead.

Many important questions still exist in this case. Certainly enough to dissuade me from establishing who killed whom and in what manner.

You find that unreasonable?

[RickSp]

What I do find unreasonable is that you seem far more concerned about the statements of a Senator than you are about the deaths of two dozen men, women and children. That says a lot. Not much of it good.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: RickSp What I do find unreasonable is that you seem far more concerned about the statements of a Senator than you are about the deaths of two dozen men, women and children. That says a lot. Not much of it good.

In war, there is death.

In a war in which the enemy wears the same clothing as, and hides among, civilians, from where they launch attacks, deaths of civilians are likely. The fault lies with those who lurk among them.

Besides, when dozens of civilians and police officers are killed by an indiscriminate explosive device ( the proper acronym for IED) you raise not a whimper. So forget the holier than thou, shtick. It requires more preparation than you have done to work.

[RickSp]

Your self-righteous indifference is offensive to be polite. We invade a country that never attacked us, kill it's civilians and then you blame the victims. It should be obvious why we are losing the guerilla war.

Yet you only get concerned when a decorated ex-Marine steps up to tell the truth. Sad.

2,500 dead, roughly 20,000 wounded and counting.