Defend Murtha's comments on Haditha

[Apeman81]

Quote by: RickSp Your self-righteous indifference is offensive to be polite. We invade a country that never attacked us, kill it's civilians and then you blame the victims. It should be obvious why we are losing the guerilla war. Yet you only get concerned when a decorated ex-Marine steps up to tell the truth. Sad. 2,500 dead, roughly 20,000 wounded and counting.

"It should be obvious why we are losing the guerilla war." Why? Greater control is being excerted in a larger area on a daily basis.

"Yet you only get concerned when a decorated ex-Marine steps up to tell the truth. Sad."

Neither her nor I can readily assert "the truth". The facts are not yet known.

"2,500 dead, roughly 20,000 wounded and counting." What is your point here? Does the accounting of casualities mean something? Are you implying that the goals of the mission are not worth the cost? That would be an opinion, would it not? As an opinion, it can then be added to all other opinions and voiced as such. It does not dictate policy.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Apeman81 "It should be obvious why we are losing the guerilla war." Why? Greater control is being excerted in a larger area on a daily basis. "Yet you only get concerned when a decorated ex-Marine steps up to tell the truth. Sad." Neither her nor I can readily assert "the truth". The facts are not yet known. "2,500 dead, roughly 20,000 wounded and counting." What is your point here? Does the accounting of casualities mean something? Are you implying that the goals of the mission are not worth the cost? That would be an opinion, would it not? As an opinion, it can then be added to all other opinions and voiced as such. It does not dictate policy.

Nothing but denial. That seems all you can manage. We are not losing the guerilla war. The facts at Haidatha are not yet known. Reminds me of the nonsense in 1968. The hawks claimed that nothing worth mentioning happened at My Lai and that we were winning the war on the ground. That worked ut real well, didn't it?

And yes, this war, justified and run entirely on lies, has not been worth the cost. Yes, that is an opinion, one shared by the majority of Americans. Only the Bushbots with blinders willing to deny the obvious seem to think it is worth it.

Cynthia Tucker, in the Baltimore Sun, gets it right - anyone who stands up to tell the trutth can expect to be attacked:
Hawks attack those who dare to speak up

Since November, when Democratic Rep. John P. Murtha of Pennsylvania began calling for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq, he has been under fire from hard-core conservatives. Like every combat veteran before him who has come to question the pretext for war or its prosecution, Mr. Murtha has been denounced as a traitor, a coward, a defeatist and a liar. Former White House spokesman Scott McClellan called Mr. Murtha's stance on withdrawal a "surrender to the terrorists." And, of course, the 38-year Marine veteran has been swiftboated: Critics have questioned his two Purple Hearts, on no grounds whatsoever. In mid-May, Mr. Murtha put himself in the firestorm again when he revealed details about apparent war crimes committed by Marines in Haditha, Iraq, last fall. "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them. And they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," Mr. Murtha said. While news organizations had cast doubts on early battlefield reports that blamed civilian casualties in the Nov. 19 incident on an incendiary device planted by insurgents, Mr. Murtha was the first congressman to publicly lend credence to reports of atrocities. High-ranking military officials have since acknowledged two separate investigations of the incident: Army Maj. Gen. Eldon Bargewell is looking into the initial battlefield reports, while the Naval Criminal Investigation Service is investigating the 24 civilian deaths. The NCIS probe may lead to homicide charges, according to reports. However, it's Mr. Murtha's outspokenness, not the alleged atrocity, that is roiling the conservative blogosphere, where some correspondents continue to cast him as a cowardly ally of the French, if not a traitorous aide to al-Qaida. There is plenty of blame to go around. It ought to be shared with Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney and every member of Congress who voted to give the president authority to go to war; with Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, whose arrogance and incompetence allowed the insurgency to grow ever more deadly; and with every armchair hawk who, even now, denounces patriots such as Mr. Murtha as cowards or traitors.

[patriotsACT]

Look guys. I can explain exactly why this happened. And will happen again.

It’s simple really. THEY HAVE BEEN THERE TOO LONG! Forcing soldiers to do 2 and 3 tours of duty is taxing on the mind, body and soul. How many times can you get shot at, nearly blown up.. How many of your friends can you see get wasted before you lose it? How long can you walk past the same people. KNOWING that they hate you. That they probably know WHO planted the bomb. That when you got ambushed, most likely, half the people in the immediate are knew it was going to happen.

After a while they would all become your enemy. And if they are not.. Why take the chance. Because chances are.. They at least know someone who killed one of your best friends. SO to hell with it! Kill those SOBs.

They can’t keep sending these guys to kill and die, with no clear end in sight. A people that hate you. Despise your countries religion and way of life. And then expect them to keep they're cool. It just doesn't work like that. Kill enough people.. And it doesn't matter anymore. Life, death.. Whatever. It's all the same to someone who has become desensitized.

We don't have a big enough military to do this right. We can’t keep sending the same soldiers back over and over again. Give me one reason why a soldier should give a shit when he knows he's going to be there over and over until either he dies.. Or the war is won. Which obviously isn't close at hand.

What they need to do is stop the back door draft. So nicely dubbed "stop loss". And start the REAL draft. Then all the Americans will have to make a sacrifice one time. Instead of just sending these poor guys that volunteered, back to the same shit hole over and over and over and over again. Shoot, I got a buddy that was in the Army with me. He's been out 4 years now. Just got called back in. Has to leave his life, his family, his job. When the military is calling up guys that have been out of service for 4 years or more.. That is a sign. A sign that things are not good.

That's what caused the atrocity. It's not those Marine's faults. It's the Bush policy in Iraq. IT ISN'T WORKING. IT WON’T WORK. It will just continue on like this until we either decide to kick ass... Or we get a repeat of the Tet offensive. For those of you who don't know.. Its where the Viet-cong attacked all the cities in S. Vietnam. And we had to turn tail and run. Why was it such a surprise? Uncle Sam was lying about what was really going on.

Would you really be surprised to find out the same thing might happen again?

[patriotsACT]

Quote by: RickSp I also find it odd that so many are more upset about Murtha's trying to tell the truth than by the deaths of women, children, and old men? Interesting that the one man who does try to tell the truth, however imperfectly, becomes the target of the right wing attacks. There is something very troubling about the values of those who dismiss civilian deaths while getting worked up over whether or not a senior senator misspoke. Do Iraqi lives have such little value that they can be so blithely ignored?

Well stated.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: patriotsACT Well stated.

"I also find it odd that so many are more upset about Murtha's trying to tell the truth than by the deaths of women, children, and old men?"

This makes a huge assumption that prior to the completion of the investigation, a group of unnamed officials provided accurate data which was then repeated as provided by Murtha, and this data as relayed by Murtha is "the truth"..

Did the officials tell him that the deaths were murder? Did they use the words "In cold blood"?

I am not willing to accept as gospel the word of a single member of the House of Representatives (not the senate as earlier asserted by RickSp) that these deaths were the result of rampaging American soldiers.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Apeman I am not willing to accept as gospel the word of a single member of the House of Representatives (not the senate as earlier asserted by RickSp) that these deaths were the result of rampaging American soldiers.

You got me. Murtha is a Congressman not a Senator.

Deny all you want. Maj. Gen. Bargewell's report is in and the leaks keep making reference to "failures in training." Of course they are leaks, but that sure sounds lik eit is addressing a rampage. And the early defense attorneys' position is admitting to the killings but claiming that they fell into the "established rules of engagement."

The civilians are dead and for that John Murtha is blameless.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: RickSp You got me. Murtha is a Congressman not a Senator. Deny all you want. Maj. Gen. Bargewell's report is in and the leaks keep making reference to "failures in training." Of course they are leaks, but that sure sounds lik eit is addressing a rampage. And the early defense attorneys' position is admitting to the killings but claiming that they fell into the "established rules of engagement." The civilians are dead and for that John Murtha is blameless.

"failures in training." This could mean a number of things. You choose to assume massacre. You are entitled to do so. It is, in my opinion, dangerous to leap to such a conclusion. And unfair to the troops involved.

[Matt W]

As opposed to being fair to the dead civilians? I mean, after all, it's obvious they respect the Iraqis....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5081930.stm

A US marine has apologised after a video spread on the internet of him singing a song about the killing of Iraqi civilians. Cpl Joshua Belile, 23, said the song had been written as a joke and was never intended to cause offence. The Marine Corps has described the song as "inappropriate" and is investigating the incident. Cpl Belile denied the song had any connection with the deaths of Iraqi civilians at Haditha last year. "It's a song that I made up and it was nothing more than something supposed to be funny, based off a catchy line of a movie," he said.

:rolleyes:

[RickSp]

Quote by: Apeman81 "failures in training." This could mean a number of things. You choose to assume massacre. You are entitled to do so. It is, in my opinion, dangerous to leap to such a conclusion. And unfair to the troops involved.

Given how the troops involved in this and other investigations have been treated by the military - held without charges solitary confinent, legs irons, shackles, threats and alledged abuse, your concerns about my comments seem wildly out of place.

Marine Corps defends treatment of troops in brig
Defense: Pentagon interrogators used threats to prompt Marines

Additional commentary by an ex-Marine:
Has this become the Marine way?

[rmnunez]

He dismissed other specific allegations of more serious abuse in several earlier cases. He said that the allegations of rape, sodomy and beatings were not substantiated by medical examinations and that the accusers' stories changed over time and were not credible. Jacoby was dispatched in May 2004 to examine the treatment of detainees at facilities in Afghanistan.

I’m a bit amused by this reference to substantiation, effects of time on testimonial evidence and credibility. It would seem Jacoby is concerned with something his civilian counterparts in the Bush Administration evince low regard for; evidence. Nonetheless, the reference does indicate this is a thurough and comprehensive report which has examined details in evidence, considered testimony and documentation and made some sort of judgment on the reliability of the stories.

The report concludes that the detainees' treatment was wrong but not illegal and reflected inadequate resources and lack of oversight and proper guidance rather than deliberate abuse. No military personnel were punished as a result of the investigation.

This is easy to fix, give the troops guidance presentations on captive handling. The presentations can be according to rank and provide supervising officers with circumstances suggesting abuse and consequences for failing to address these.

His report found "no systematic or widespread mistreatment of detainees," but concluded that the opportunities for mistreatment and the ever-changing battlefield there demanded changes in procedures. He said that there was "a consistent lack of knowledge" regarding the capture, processing, detention and interrogation of detainees and that policies varied at facilities across the country. Jacoby also concluded that the lack of clear standards created opportunities for abuse and impeded efforts to gain timely intelligence and that interrogation standards were "inconsistent and unevenly applied."

As noted, proper training, standardized practices and adequate oversight ought to do the trick.

To date, there have been about 600 investigations into detainee-related incidents of all kinds, including natural deaths and detainee assaults on other detainees, according to Army spokesman Paul Boyce. As a result, he said, 267 soldiers have received some type of punishment, including 85 courts-martial and 95 nonjudicial actions.

They already are policing themselves, this shows awareness among some and procedures in place to handle the problem.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060616/...detainee_abuse

(by courtesy of the ACLU’s Freedom of Information Act Request upon the Pentagon concerning captive abuse).

[RickSp]

rmnunez,

I was not referring to Iraqi detainees in solitary, in shackles, and being held without charge, I was referring to American Marines, suspected of killing civilians.

My point was that whatever one might think of Murtha's characterizations, they are relatively insignificant compared to the military's treatment of its own personnel suspected of wrong doing.

[RickSp]

Troops Echo Frustration Over War in Iraq

While Staff Sgt. Randy Myers was dodging roadside bombs in Iraq, his congressman was calling the war a lost cause. Sixteen-term Rep. John Murtha, a decorated Vietnam veteran and military hawk, has become the face of the Democrats' anti-war movement since he called for the withdrawal of U.S. troops last fall. His oft-repeated criticism of the Bush administration's war policies also has earned him the wrath of Republicans. In Murtha's southwest Pennsylvania district, however, many share the war critic's views. At a welcome home ceremony this week for Myers and other troops from the Johnstown, Pa.-based 876th Engineer Battalion, the crowd cheered when a Murtha aide welcomed the troops on the congressman's behalf. Myers said he backs Murtha, an opinion echoed by a number of other troops and their families. Several share his frustration with the conflict. "I'm not sure we're doing a whole lot of good," Myers, 46, said of the U.S. presence in Iraq. "Everybody thinks we are. We're trying to, but we're not going to change what they want to do, and if they don't want to change, they're not gonna." Said Sgt. 1st Class George Wozniak, 36, of Murtha: "He's definitely for a strong military and he definitely supports the troops."

Telling the truth is the best way to support the troops.