Is the oil industry an evil business?

[Technosoul]

The oil industry has been blamed for a number of environmental problems such as global warming, and for being the cause of medical problems such as cancer, the products cause smog and eye irritants.

The oil industry has been blamed by conspiritors for being behind a number of "economic" wars.

The oil industry has been blamed for ripping you off at the gas pumps by falsely manipulating the "supply and demand" standards to fix prices.

The oil industry has been blamed for controlling the political system with large donations and lobby groups.

So is that business like an "evil empire"? (I am not using the word evil in a religious sense - but as a secular word in this posting).

[Mr. Jaggers]

The oil business is fueled by greed. Greed is the desire for excess; it would be a vice but for its popularity. And, as shown by the excesses exposed in the Enron case, it is even the more so when you incorporate it.

[Rave7pt0]

The oil industry has exactly the amount of power and impetus to use it that its customers willingly hand over to it. If you think oil is evil, you're either a hypocrite or you avoid modern forms of transportation, live off the grid, and don't use plastic.

[Jack]

I concur with both Mr. Jaggers and Rave7pt0 on this. Their power and influence in our society is a real concern. The oil companies pose a threat to both our quality of life and our government (through their influence). Our need is our weakness.
Isn't it telling that while the cigarette companies were forced to put warnings on their products and provide stop-smoking campaigns, big oil has never been forced to put some of their obscene profits back into research for sustainable alternatives to oil?

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Isherwood I concur with both Mr. Jaggers and Rave7pt0 on this. Their power and influence in our society is a real concern. The oil companies pose a threat to both our quality of life and our government (through their influence). Our need is our weakness. Isn't it telling that while the cigarette companies were forced to put warnings on their products and provide stop-smoking campaigns, big oil has never been forced to put some of their obscene profits back into research for sustainable alternatives to oil?

Due to smog produced by oil burning vehicles the L.A. city (So. California) has reached toxic levels of smog - above the pre-Bush standards set by the Federal government. Toxic fumes known by the State of California to cause cancer and other health problems.

So I think that the city should put up gaint billboards at every entrance highway into the city that reads "warning, breathing the air might be hazardous to your health". And the oil industry would be billed for the bill board signs.

How about that?

[Jack]

How about they support this?:

While much of the world fumes over escalating fuel prices, a small company in north central Iowa is quietly hoping to make gasoline obsolete as an engine fuel.

Research at the Hydrogen Engine Center is done in an early 1900s red brick armory at the Kossuth County fairgrounds.

There, a clean six-cylinder engine that looks like it could have been pulled from a Ford pickup has been running for 110 hours, not quite half the 300 hours it must continuously run for certification. The company, led by a retired Ford Motor engineer, hopes to meet Environmental Protection Agency automotive 2007 emission standards.

All 81 parts are original Oxx Power, the brand name the company has given all its engines. The engine can run on a number of fuels including hydrogen, ethanol, natural gas, propane or digester gas from landfills.

The company, started by Ted Hollinger, 65, is initially focusing on making more efficient, environmentally friendlier engines to replace those used in generators and in forklift trucks, airline ground equipment, irrigation pumps, tractors and buses.

Ford, General Motors and Chrysler have dropped industrial engine production as they've cut costs, leaving what Hollinger said is a ready-made market for his fledgling company.

"Our engine has to bolt in where the old engine went and can't be a thread off," he said. "If you do that and you make improvements in it so that it gets rid of emissions and it's more efficient, then I think people are going to like it."

The company incorporated in Iowa in 2003 and two years later in Canada. It merged with Green Mt. Labs in August 2005 and became a publicly traded company under the name Hydrogen Engine Center Inc.

Hollinger said he insisted that his company have a product to sell from day one instead of starting up as a research and development firm. The company's products include a six-cylinder engine and a three-cylinder version for small engine applications.

The company has found immediate interest in its hydrogen-powered generators that use five engines.

Brad Van Horn, an engine distributor with Northern Power Productions of Minneapolis, said some orders are already placed for the generators as they approach the production phase.

"The level of excitement is huge," he said.

Van Horn, who sells in Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota and Nebraska, said he gets calls daily from companies running irrigation equipment in Nebraska. Airports needing to replace the Ford engines in their baggage-handling and other ground-service equipment will also be a large market.

The company said American Airlines alone has 9,500 vehicles likely to be converted to alternative fuels over the next decade.

While the engines drive a revenue stream for the company, engineers are working to improve the technology of engines that run on hydrogen and other clean fuels. Bob Mendlesky, another retired Ford engineer, light ups when he describes the potential for the engines his shop is developing.

He said there are obstacles to making cars powered with hydrogen-fueled internal combustion engines. To carry enough hydrogen, the fuel tank would have to be under extremely high pressure, he said. In addition, tanks made to that specification cost as much as the engine to power the car.

Hydrogen technology is better suited for generator applications and for industrial uses at its current stage of development, he said.

A better solution may be engines that run on ammonia, Hollinger said.

Development of ammonia as a fuel must include ways to improve its combustibility. Ammonia does not readily spark like other fuels, but Hollinger is determined to overcome some of the obstacles.

"I tell people that I'm no dumber now than when I was at Ford. If I can invent at Ford, I can invent here," Hollinger said. "I don't think that there's any reason we can't. Will we? I don't know."

Hollinger said he doesn't expect his small company to make major breakthroughs in the automotive propulsion, but he's willing to work with Ford or any other company working on clean fuel technology.

"I hope in the future the automotive people will look at our stuff and incorporate some of our ideas," he said. "Somebody needs to do something now."

Source:WiredNews

[tman_ndsu08]

People curse the oil companies while at the same time buy the same amount of gasoline regardless if it's $2/gal. or $4/gal.

Curse yourself.

If gasoline is too high then stop buying it!


The oil companies are probably losing billions of dollars right now by not being able to ramp up supply to take advantage of the never before seen demand that Americans have shown for $3/gal. gasoline.

[Osborn F Enready]

The current players in the "oil industry" may indeed be profiteer, monopolists......however, the industry itself is not inherantly evil. If anything, I would say the industry itself, is quite noble if done according to true free market standards.

It is the people that make our current oil industry evil, not the industry itself.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 People curse the oil companies while at the same time buy the same amount of gasoline regardless if it's $2/gal. or $4/gal. Curse yourself. If gasoline is too high then stop buying it! The oil companies are probably losing billions of dollars right now by not being able to ramp up supply to take advantage of the never before seen demand that Americans have shown for $3/gal. gasoline.

Not sure if you have confirmable stats to back up your opinon, any webpage to confirm that view?

Why did the overseas oil pumpers reduce producton for the summer to raise the price durng the peak sell time of the year ( vacation time).

However you might be correct, I just do not know for sure.

How come it is that the oil industry that just last year made more profits then it has ever made before now so worried about getting enough oil to the public - how come they cannot spend some of those millions in profits to build better tankers so they can stop using those old tankers that fall apart and cause oil pills on beaches and wetlands (over and over - nearly every year)?

Why did Halliburton which is part of the oil industry preparing for the war on Iraq two years before 9-11 so that they could secure the fields and put out potential fires. Is that not a bit odd, the CEO Tricky Dick and Halliburton knew about the Irag war before Bush made up his mind to attack - years in advance of the White House giving us reasons for that war. And what is an oil company doing preparing the USA to war with another country?

And on an on.....

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready The current players in the "oil industry" may indeed be profiteer, monopolists......however, the industry itself is not inherantly evil. If anything, I would say the industry itself, is quite noble if done according to true free market standards. It is the people that make our current oil industry evil, not the industry itself.

Of course the industry, the buildings, and even the products - cannot do anything good or bad because such cannot think or act - being non-living things. So it is the people who run the industry that we are talking about - which should have been a given. (even if not worded to get that technical).

[Technosoul]

If I could run my car on air then I would not buy gasoline - but the car was made to operate on gasoline and none of the companies are in competition with each other for our dollars so none need to under-sell the other brands.

[Zhavric]

The oil industry isn't "evil" in the fictional / biblical sense. It's a group of competing corporations.

As corporations, they have one goal which dominates all moral, ethical, and legal questions: to make money.

That's it.

That is their "moral compass". Will it earn us cash?

Imagine you make widgets. You've been making widgets for as long as you can remember. People want widgets. A lot. So you're in the money. Then, someone comes along and says, "I have this thing that's better than a widget!"

Now, according to the idea of capitalism, the better thing should be able to break into the market and compete, right? Well, not if you're up against an oil company! The oil companies have a vested interest in making sure their shareholders get cash. If that means lobbying congress to change standards for vehicles to make sure they maintain their position in the market, they'll do it.

The fact is that we've had the technology to be using oil alternatives for decades, but not the will to impliment them.

I'd like to think that the oil corporations have some cunning plan to switch from oil to some other renewable resource in the next few decades, but I just don't see it happening. It's far too profitable.

[Technosoul]

[quote=Zhavric] The oil industry isn't "evil" in the fictional / biblical sense. It's a group of competing corporations.

As corporations, they have one goal which dominates all moral, ethical, and legal questions: to make money.

That's it.

That is their "moral compass". Will it earn us cash?

Imagine you make widgets. You've been making widgets for as long as you can remember. People want widgets. A lot. So you're in the money. Then, someone comes along and says, "I have this thing that's better than a widget!"

Now, according to the idea of capitalism, the better thing should be able to break into the market and compete, right? Well, not if you're up against an oil company! The oil companies have a vested interest in making sure their shareholders get cash. If that means lobbying congress to change standards for vehicles to make sure they maintain their position in the market, they'll do it.

The fact is that we've had the technology to be using oil alternatives for decades, but not the will to impliment them.

I'd like to think that the oil corporations have some cunning plan to switch from oil to some other renewable resource in the next few decades, but I just don't see it happening. It's far too profitable.
[/QUOTE)


I guess my title does sound a little too much like the "axes of evil" statements. But in the O.P. I stated I was using that term in a secular sense rather then in the (fictional) religious sense. I think we might have a secular meaning for the word - not sure 'cause I do not have a dictionary handy right now (still unpacking form a house move). Plus, I honestly could not think of another word to use that would relate the meaning strong enough.

I agree that capitalism has nearly become obsolete in our culture, monopolies and name brand chain stores have gotten together to pretty much keep prices the same everywhere for most products, and with gasoline we will seldom see much difference between Shell, 76, Mobel, or even the smaller "Thrifty" gas stations. Alternative fuels (for the most part) would need alternative cars or a lot of "stations" where you can pull into to re-fuel.

But the cost of gas has been debate in the other post "Gas prices up for the summer" and so no point rehashing that. What about the other problems so noted?

Interesting thing is most people voting voted "no".

The reason I posted this is because we are having a governer election coming up here in my state and we get ads where one canadate is saying about the other canadate "How can he stand up to the oil companies and do what is right, when he has taken so much money from each of them", and he listed how much each oil company donated the other canadate.

"stand up to big oil"?????? What is that all about - are the oil companies "evil" (or what ever other word you can use to mean evil?). Is Big Oil just a normal business or is something scary going on?

[Jack]

According to Reuters:

An investigation by U.S. antitrust authorities found no evidence that oil companies illegally manipulated gasoline prices or constrained oil refining operations, the Federal Trade Commission said on Monday. However, the agency said it had found 15 examples that fit lawmakers' definition of price-gouging at the "refining, wholesale, or retail level." It said factors like regional and local market trends appeared to explain the pricing in nearly all the cases. Congress ordered the FTC probe last summer as part of a broad energy bill in response to a steady climb in crude oil and gasoline prices.

Source

[Samildanach]

I think they are evil in that there are much cleaner alternatives and they have the resources to implement them yet they do nothing.

Its the whole standby and do nothing to help argument....in fact is a bit worse than that, they actively suppress technology which could help all in the name of money. I hate irresponsible corporations.

[Aquietguy1]

Quote by: Technosoul The oil industry has been blamed for a number of environmental problems such as global warming, and for being the cause of medical problems such as cancer, the products cause smog and eye irritants.

I don't believe that the oil industry is evil. It's like any other industry. Their are honest people and dishonest people. The bible tells us that the greed for money is the root of all evil. It's that greed for money that makes people do dishonest things. It's not limited to the oil industry. As for global warming, that is more political science than it is geological science.

The oil industry has been blamed by conspiritors for being behind a number of "economic" wars.

I would be surprised if that is true.

The oil industry has been blamed for ripping you off at the gas pumps by falsely manipulating the "supply and demand" standards to fix prices.

They are. I saw a news report of an oil industry executive who said that they were going to charge as much as they can.

The oil industry has been blamed for controlling the political system with large donations and lobby groups.

A lot of industries have lobbyist in Washington. It's not just the oil industry. the pharmaceutical industry puts the oil industry to shame when it comes to lobbyist.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Technosoul Not sure if you have confirmable stats to back up your opinon, any webpage to confirm that view?

Simple economics.

If you can sell 10 units at $10 dollars, you're losing money by only being able to supply 5 units at $10.


The oil and gas companies probably had no idea that Americans would simply keep right on buying the same amount of gasoline even though it was $3/gal. instead of $2/gal.

If they had more supply, they could be selling even more $3/gal. gasoline and making more money than they are now.

[RVonse]

We probably don't have enough evidence or proof that the oil companies are evil in and of themselves, therefore I voted '"no".

But we do know for sure that the vice president conducted a secret meeting with oil authorities and the results of that task force remain secret even today. Think about that just for a second. Our elected vice president is supposed to have the best interest of the public at heart, yet he can't for some reason let anyone know what he is up to. This is what I know is evil.

[Aquietguy1]

I would be surprised if that is true.

Correction. I meant I wouldn't be surprised.

[brien]

Quote by: Technosoul The oil industry has been blamed for a number of environmental problems such as global warming, and for being the cause of medical problems such as cancer, the products cause smog and eye irritants. The oil industry has been blamed by conspiritors for being behind a number of "economic" wars. The oil industry has been blamed for ripping you off at the gas pumps by falsely manipulating the "supply and demand" standards to fix prices. The oil industry has been blamed for controlling the political system with large donations and lobby groups. So is that business like an "evil empire"? (I am not using the word evil in a religious sense - but as a secular word in this posting).

The use of the word "evil" is somewhat strong. Without oil, the world economy would collapse.

The oil companies have been subject to world pricing as determined by demand in the US as well as growing markets like India and China. Keep in mind only 20% of their profits are derived in the US market.

I think it is convenient to scapegoat and blame oil prices upon the oil companies.There probably is a certain amount of "price gouging" on an individual basis as found by the Attorney General in CT but is it the the norm?

See:http://www.ct.gov/ag/cwp/view.asp?Q=313626&A=2426

See Consumers: http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=66207

See:http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...as_prices.html

In this article we see the following quote: Not everyone is fully satisfied with the FTC findings. Representative Rick Boucher, (D-Va.), claims that the real reason there is a refinery shortage in the U.S. is because the oil companies that own refineries are profiting enormously from refinery bottlenecks and gasoline shortages.

I guess the Federal Regulations and enviornmentalists regarding new refinery construction has nothing to do with the current situation according to some politicians.

See:http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4177

From the above link: The alleged “solution” to the Texas blast, according to industry critics, is still more regulation, even though regulation was the ultimate cause of the accident (and many others that have occurred in the industry). Fact: not a single new oil and gas refinery has been built in the U.S. since 1976; the last one built was in Garyville, Louisiana that year. Worse, today there are 54% fewer oil and gas refineries in the U.S. (149) than there were in 1981 (321). Why? Not only have environmentalists lobbied government to block new refinery construction; they’ve also lobbied to have refineries decommissioned. Moreover, environmental regulations have materially raised the cost of operating refineries, making many of them unprofitable. It has been estimated that today it would take seven years, 800 permits and $2.5 billion to build a new refinery; nearly half of that cost is due entirely to the arbitrary and unnecessary costs imposed by environmentalists and their obstructionism. The National Petrochemical and Refiners Association reports that environmentalist-related costs have totaled $47 billion over the past decade; that’s enough to have built 19 new refineries (even at today’s bloated cost of $2.5 billion per unit), or 13% more refineries than exist in the U.S. today.

I think we must consider the oil companies have been hampered in their efforts to explore, drill and also develop more refineries over the last 30 years, and now that these chickens are coming home to roost, the very people who have denied the oil companies their developments are the same people now probably complaining about high prices.

Techno wrote:The oil industry has been blamed for ripping you off at the gas pumps by falsely manipulating the "supply and demand" standards to fix prices.

I ask: How are they doing this?

Granted the oil companies are responsible for large political donations, but I would like to see proof positive they are guilty of manipulation in supply and demand. Perhaps the market is too internationalized for the "oil companies" to accomplish the task for which some seem to accuse them. Maybe this is more scapegoating because the oil companies are easy targets.

Are the oil companies the next cigarette situation? Deep pockets need to be picked by Government because they can't raise taxes on these "evil" companies who are destroying the health of the citizens in their greedy quest for the almighty profit?