A 21st Century American Civil War

[PatrickHenry]

A recently deleted topic broached an interesting question: Is a violent civil war likely in America in the near future?

The original of this topic was deleted because it had been posted by a one hit wonder, and duplicates were found on other discussion boards, leading to the conclusion that it was spam. The original also seemed a bit rambling and not up to the quality of serious debate we often engage in here on Volconvo. However, it generated some thoughtful responses and its deletion spawned a discussion of how and why topics are deleted, as well as some members' regret that the topic was no longer in play.

So here is another chance, folks. Has the US Federal power structure been undermined to an extent that we may have weapons drawn on a massive scale? Who would support the current regime and who would oppose it by force of arms?

What are the trends and forces causing this discussion to be taken seriously?

What would it take to restore balance and trust in the Feds? Is that even a possibility?

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: PatrickHenry A recently deleted topic broached an interesting question: Is a violent civil war likely in America in the near future?[

I agree that this should be up for discussion, probably now more than ever.

Quote by: PatrickHenry So here is another chance, folks. Has the US Federal power structure been undermined to an extent that we may have weapons drawn on a massive scale? Who would support the current regime and who would oppose it by force of arms?

I would forced to oppose them simply on principal. These bastards have sold us out at every opportunity, and if they think large numbers will rally to their sides in time of crisis, I think are sadly mistaken. ( I'm still at a loss for how they seem to generate such a huge fan base when they only work for the super rich, and the extreme poor, as most people don't fall into either catagory.)

Quote by: PatrickHenry What are the trends and forces causing this discussion to be taken seriously?

For me it is the treasonous behavior of our elected officials. You could probably count on one hand the number of elected representatives that any clue as to what that sworn public oath to the constitution really implies, or infers.


For many others I would have assume immigration, outsourcing, and the economy.

Quote by: PatrickHenry What would it take to restore balance and trust in the Feds? Is that even a possibility?

In my honest opinion, I think we would have to strike all Executive Orders, and repeal all legislation that is not clearly within constitutional bounds, and pretty much just start over.


So, no, it's probably not possible to trust those people again.


Unfortunately, public opinion about all things revolt probably favors the established cabal of incumbants, and their mouthpieces who have spoon fed them thier opinions over many years. Hard to shake off an entire indoctrination in a single massive convulsion. ( Just try to count the number of "allegedly" credible mouthpiecs the propaganda machine has working for it at any one time, and don't forget to count the ones who have made it all the way to retirement without having their cover blown to most people.) Personally, I'm glad Brokaw, Rather, and some of the other 25 plus year veterans have finally moved on. I just couldn't listen to another minute of those blowhards babbling. ( Wouldn't it be funny if could attribute that as being the reason I discovered Bill Moyers, and PBS, and woke up in the first place? Can't say enough about having genuine inspiration motivating you to change ( the channel), eh? )

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Has the US Federal power structure been undermined to an extent that we may have weapons drawn on a massive scale? Who would support the current regime and who would oppose it by force of arms?

How could any armed organized opposition ever be mounted against an administration that controls and monitors ALL forms of communication?

While you may get some spontaneous mass gatherings and protests, ala the Vietnam era, actual armed opposition requires planning and coordination to be effective. Ceding our 4th amendment rights to the government in the name of "security" effectively guarantees just the opposite.

[Samildanach]

Ever heard of misinformation :) Organise something slowly through word of mouth. Meanwhile babble about resistance into the cell phones and on the internet Send them where you dont want them to be before you strike.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Samildanach Ever heard of misinformation :) Organise something slowly through word of mouth. Meanwhile babble about resistance into the cell phones and on the internet Send them where you dont want them to be before you strike.

Word of mouth organization would be much too slow to respond to the fast-changing environment of an armed engagement. Misinformation would hardly even be a nuisance. The only effective resistance would seem to be exactly what we are seeing in Iraq - "insurgents" targeting whatever they can to disrupt and demoralize the administration and their supporters.

[puellamore]

I think armed resistance is futile, and besides, I think that the U. S Constitution is the finest blueprint for government ever devised.

We just need to take a page from the Nazis and christian fundies operating manual and slowly infiltrate the corridors of power and then, unlike them, return the power to the decent people of the general populace.

[jose]

We dare not wait for history to impeach George W. Bush. We need to head him off at the pass right now, and not let him, in the two and a half years remaining in his term, add to his legacy as “the worst president in history” — by, say, attacking Iran.

Indeed Bush, with his naked agenda, has presented the nation with an extraordinary opportunity to redefine itself. If a citizens’ movement can rescue basic American principles of justice and fairness from the realpolitik compromises of the last half century, we’ll owe W, in his neutered retirement, a thank-you note for waking us up.
http://commonwonders.com/

[Milton Bradley]

I sure hope you're right about the Jose, bit I am losing hope rapidly.


So many refuse to think for themselves, it's truly horifying to me at this point.


Like the tortured kid in the movie...( I never saw )


I see dumb sheeple.

[jose]

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: jose We dare not wait for history to impeach George W. Bush. We need to head him off at the pass right now, and not let him, in the two and a half years remaining in his term, add to his legacy as “the worst president in history” — by, say, attacking Iran. Indeed Bush, with his naked agenda, has presented the nation with an extraordinary opportunity to redefine itself. If a citizens’ movement can rescue basic American principles of justice and fairness from the realpolitik compromises of the last half century, we’ll owe W, in his neutered retirement, a thank-you note for waking us up. http://commonwonders.com/

What good will it do to impeach bush if cheney takes his place?? Look down the list and see how many you'd have to impeach before you got someone you could trust.

[jose]

And whats wrong with a revolution? its not like you haven´t had one before
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...s&ct=clnk&cd=1
personally i think America is about 3 years away from this

[G. Adams]

Quote by: puellamore I think armed resistance is futile, and besides, I think that the U. S Constitution is the finest blueprint for government ever devised. We just need to take a page from the Nazis and christian fundies operating manual and slowly infiltrate the corridors of power and then, unlike them, return the power to the decent people of the general populace.

The twisted route to power corrupts even those with the best intentions. The corridors must be cleaned before we walk them, lest we start to imitate that we despise.

[Clarence]

Quote by: puellamore I think armed resistance is futile, and besides, I think that the U. S Constitution is the finest blueprint for government ever devised. We just need to take a page from the Nazis and christian fundies operating manual and slowly infiltrate the corridors of power and then, unlike them, return the power to the decent people of the general populace.

Quote by: G. Adams The twisted route to power corrupts even those with the best intentions. The corridors must be cleaned before we walk them, lest we start to imitate that we despise.

How can you both be so right at the same time? It'd probably take a little of both perpectives. and luck and hope. I'm forced to sit back and watch. I'm pretty sure I'm not even going to vote for the first time since I could. Unless...well. I guess I still will. But I lose hope as well. It's cool though. Just prepare yourselves. This communication thing we do...Maybe there's something to think about.

The new sons and daughters of liberty await the coming storm and hear Jim Morrison and a cool keyboard. There's beauty in having a purpose. When the sun shines, I know there's much to be preserved and that purpose is noble.

[So what]

You know how you can change your tax deductions from time to time thru your payroll dept...I thought it would be funny if about 90% of working Americans went exempt for about a month or two when the gov't screws the pooch. Most Americans get refunds anyway(unfortunately not me ). So it wouldn't affect them in the long run much, but it would piss of the suits in DC.

[Osborn F Enready]

I feel we are overdue for armed revolt.

I feel, and can logically surmise, that a violent revolt most certianly could be successful.

I think all Americans should FORCE their representatives to take a stand, by not electing ANYONE who doesn't sign a statement of accountability for thier actions once elected.

I would like to ask all American citizens, who honor and respect our Constitutional Heritage and government, to take a moment to mail your representatives a letter.

Below is a sample letter, and I ask you all to copy it, and fill it in with your name and personal information, and then mail it to your state representatives.

Here is a nice example letter courtesy of Patrick Henrys attention:
--------------- ------------------
Date:

Dear Representative:

I am taking advantage of my American freedom, while I still have it, to urge you to stand up for the American people, and make it your position that the declared state of national emergency which has operated in this great nation for almost five years be canceled immediately.

I have been apprised of the amendment to Section 5(b) of the Trading with the Enemy Act of October 6, 1917, and understand the extraordinary powers it has conferred upon the Executive branch of our government. These excessive powers have been used to sell our nation into slavery, by effectively nationalizing our vital industries and separating the American citizen from their rights under common law.

I know that the Constitution of this United States has been set aside under this "national emergency". I urge you now, as a servant of the American people, to commit yourself to working for its immediate return to its rightful owners - We, the People. If you are unwilling or unable to take this stand in defense of your country, I request that you tender your resignation so that another may take your place who is willing and/or able to do what you are not.

The Supreme Court once said, "It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep our government from falling into error". As such, I hereby charge you to repeal Proclamations 2039 and 2040, and 12 USC 95 (a) and (b), reestablish the Constitution of the United States to its rightful position in our government. Furthermore I urge a cancellation of the Declared State of Emergency announced on September 23, 2001.

Sincerely,
(your name, address, city, state and zip here)
--------------- -----------------
And to finish, a quote from 1933, Congressman Beck, speaking from the Congressional Record, states:

Quote:
"I think of all the damnable heresies that have ever been suggested in connection with the Constitution, the doctrine of emergency is the worst. it means that when Congress declares an
emergency, there is no Constitution. This means its death. It is the very doctrine that the German chancellor is invoking today in the dying hours of the parliamentary body of the German republic, namely, that because of an emergency, it should grant to the German chancellor absolute power to pass any law, even though the law contradicts the Constitution of the German republic. Chancellor Hitler is at least frank about it. We pay the Constitution lipservice, but the result is the same."

Perhaps we should make a signing statement part of the oath of office through voter reform?
Perhaps we should ADDRESS vote reform, and fair vote policies?
Perhaps we should take action, instead of being complacent spectators of government?

We must end the Emergency Doctrine, reinstate the Federal Constitution, recognize states rights, remove executive order privlidge and retake our government to restore its checks and balances. Once that is done, we can retake the economy, from the foreign bankers.

[GHook93]

Quote by: jose We dare not wait for history to impeach George W. Bush. We need to head him off at the pass right now, and not let him, in the two and a half years remaining in his term, add to his legacy as “the worst president in history” — by, say, attacking Iran. Indeed Bush, with his naked agenda, has presented the nation with an extraordinary opportunity to redefine itself. If a citizens’ movement can rescue basic American principles of justice and fairness from the realpolitik compromises of the last half century, we’ll owe W, in his neutered retirement, a thank-you note for waking us up. http://commonwonders.com/

Please invading Iran would be the one good thing he would have done. Turning Tehran into a parking lot would suffice.

But to answer the original question a NO WAY IN HELL, (at least for the foreseeable future)

[samuel7]

Weapons , War for all we know BUSH could kill his own people !!!!! He's unreliable

[twoanickel]

Quote by: PatrickHenry A recently deleted topic broached an interesting question: Is a violent civil war likely in America in the near future? The original of this topic was deleted because it had been posted by a one hit wonder, and duplicates were found on other discussion boards, leading to the conclusion that it was spam. The original also seemed a bit rambling and not up to the quality of serious debate we often engage in here on Volconvo. However, it generated some thoughtful responses and its deletion spawned a discussion of how and why topics are deleted, as well as some members' regret that the topic was no longer in play. So here is another chance, folks. Has the US Federal power structure been undermined to an extent that we may have weapons drawn on a massive scale? Who would support the current regime and who would oppose it by force of arms? What are the trends and forces causing this discussion to be taken seriously? What would it take to restore balance and trust in the Feds? Is that even a possibility?

The only real solution is to eliminate the Federal government. This would not cause the problem some immediately imagine; and it should not require an armed rebellion. The sentiment against the continuation of federalism should be massive as to be irresistable; and our taking such action is clearly justified because the problems this country has are largely caused by the federal govrnment's failure in two respects:

(1.) refusing to do those things which the constitution assigns to it as a federal responsibility (SUCH AS securing our national borders) and

(2.) doing those things for which it has no constitutional authorty

Therefore, eliminate the beast of the beltway and solve a lot of problems. A military consisting of fifty different state forces would put a halt to fascistic military adventurism by political and military megalomaniacs.

The states would no longer have to feed the monster of the beltway, and state funds kept at home would be more wisely used in accordance with the judgement of the states rather than the according to the supposed higher wisdom (sniff, sniff) of the denizens of the beltway. Therefore, it would be nice if rather than having an election in 2008 we citizens decided that we would no longer allow the federal government to exercise ANY form of authority, and required the abandonment of federal buildings to either the screech owls or else devoted them to any use the states chose to make of such buildings in their state. One necessary stipulation of this plan would be the provision that no former federal official or office holder would be allowed to fill any position of authority in state governments. This is NOT said with tongue in cheek. The Declaration of Independence declares our right to take such an action, and the ills the federal government has foisted upon us require that we do so now.

I believe that if we are to take such action as befits the present gravity of our situation, the abandonment of federalism is our only proper recourse of action. PatricK Henry and other good men were never in favor of a federal government in the first place.

[PatrickHenry]

As much as I personally find your proposal to my taste, twoanickel, I think that any action along those lines would certainly be a trigger for a 21st Century Civil War.

Many in the USA self-identify strongly as "Americans" and would take up arms to defend Washington against a reversal of her sovreignty. This includes a large contingent (likely a majority) of the US military. They are well armed and trained and have facilities waiting for "detainees." I don't think I would want to tangle with US soldiers quelling a so-called "revolution" unless there was great public opinion on the side of devolution from federalism.

You are correct about Patrick Henry and George Mason also opposed the constitution as noted in these objections: http://look.net/gunstonhall/documents/objections.html

Here's another of my favorites from George Mason:

When the same man, or set of men, holds the sword and the purse, there is an end of liberty.

Why do the Feds get all my extra money every year? Because I have a gun to my head and I fear the consequences of refusing to pay the protection money.

[twoanickel]

Quote by: PatrickHenry As much as I personally find your proposal to my taste, twoanickel, I think that any action along those lines would certainly be a trigger for a 21st Century Civil War. Many in the USA self-identify strongly as "Americans" and would take up arms to defend Washington against a reversal of her sovreignty. This includes a large contingent (likely a majority) of the US military. They are well armed and trained and have facilities waiting for "detainees." I don't think I would want to tangle with US soldiers quelling a so-called "revolution" unless there was great public opinion on the side of devolution from federalism. You are correct about Patrick Henry and George Mason also opposed the constitution as noted in these objections: http://look.net/gunstonhall/documents/objections.html Here's another of my favorites from George Mason: Why do the Feds get all my extra money every year? Because I have a gun to my head and I fear the consequences of refusing to pay the protection money.

I agree that it would require a big information campaign to gain the public's support, but I also believe that a large number of Americans are getting fed up. The thing that is on the side of terminating the federal government is that it is primarily because of the federal government that we are no longer real Americans. Right now, there are a large number of people inside the beltway who consider themselves to be world citizens rather tan Americans, and there are people now sitting on the supreme court who have contempt for the constitution. Names? How about Stephan Breyer and the other woman on the court? Sandra Oconner was another one, but she is gone now. The federal government does not influence the nation toward Americanism, but contemptuously abandons principles which are historically American.
You opened with the suggestion of a civil war in the offing. I suggest that if we are going to fight we do so to rid ourselves of the beast of the beltway. But again, I think we still might have recourse to lawful means even for the rejection of federalism.

The consideration of the outcome of our military being divided into the forces of fifty different states would appeal greatly to the American people now, I believe;l and I believe also that there are many in the armed forces who would think it would be a great benefit to alter the military from a federal force to the might of fifty different states ready to take joint action IF the states were ever TRULY threatened. The federal government has abused our miltary unnecessarily.