A 21st Century American Civil War

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: nm420 I would need to be fairly compensated for my intellectual property, you know. Heh, no really, I would be flattered (be that for better or worse) if you consider my post worthy of quoting. Eat your heart out.

I'm with Osborn, you really nailed it with that description of the problem. When he quoted you when we were talking, I actually commented to him that your statement was kind of like looking into a mirror for me, because I definately saw myself in those words.

Quote by: nm420 Alas, growing up with a blue-collar dad and a mother working for the state dispensing welfare, it's taken me a while to shed the notion that the Democrats are somehow better than the Republicans, or even the "lesser of two evils". After voting for Kerry (shudder), I've finally worked all of that crap out of my system and could hardly consider voting for either of the two mainstream parties. A humongous task set before me will to try and convince my parents that a vote for Hilary is no different than a vote for Bush.

Preach on brother.

Quote by: nm420 But are there any Congresspersons in Washington right now who are actually true to the principles their stated party lays claim to? I've heard of many good things about Ron Paul, though I've not done enough research to know how consistent he is. Does anybody know of anyone in Congress who is actually a "good guy"?

It's really tough to know with all the closed door deals, and special interest lobbying going on behind the scenes. I wouldn't want to go out on a limb to defend any of them at the current time.


I have a long cultivated distaste for anybody willing to affix a Republican, or Democratic pin on their lapel. The only people that get election funds to run as Democrats, or Republicans have been carefully scrutinized, and seen to fit within the sinister bipartisan global agenda.


I do like certain things that I hear on C-SPAN from people like John Conyers, Nancy Pelosi, Russ Feingold, Charles Schumer, Cynthia McKinney and a few others from time to time, but who knows what else they might be involved in in these troubled times. ( PROMIS Software anyone?)

[twoanickel]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready twoanickel, I must say that while I agree with most of your political discussion, I shudder at the words like "God, Pharaoh, His" etc. Belief is a powerful thing, but it is different to each of us, as it should be. Using religion as a "crutch" for an argument, does not win points with me, it actually removes points for the argument in my opinion. When we put a leader in office, who is that SWORN OATH taken to serve? The public, The Constitution.....UNDER GOD. They are not servants to God, nor any particular God, but they swear before him as tradition has been that way. Politicians are SERVANTS of the people, and are meant to be REPRESENTATIVE of the people, not God or any particular Gods wishes. If a politician, much like Bush, gets in office and places his oath and service to GOD before ME, as is intended by his position, I am already not only skeptical, but UPSET! You can serve God your entire life all you want as YOU see fit, but when you swear into office you are SERVING THE PEOPLE, and God comes second in ALL of those political decisions. We are not, were not, nor should ever be in my opinion, a theocracy. What makes Christians think this is a Christian country anyway? Are there any other religious figure heads who are referred to as a "God" by their followers? So why then do Christians automatically assume our nation is CHRISTIAN because we say the GENERIC word God, as opposed to God, with Christ as our Saviour? No sarcasm intended, this is probably off topic also, so if you want, answer me via PM.

Who said anything about a theocracy? I spoke about those who would try to rule over other men. Don't you agree that the problem we have basically boils down to a God complex inside the CFR and inside the beltway? That is NOT a theocracy. It is a God complex by idiots who intend to rule over other men. Watch out for your PHOBIAS!

[Osborn F Enready]

twoanickel said: I spoke about those who would try to rule over other men. Don't you agree that the problem we have basically boils down to a God complex inside the CFR and inside the beltway?

I say:
Well, while it may or may not be, I try to stop investigating at the laws and fraud and not carry into the motives behind it to that level.

I would agree for the most part, since I think there is a lot of "fundamentalist" or "extremists" in government who use religion as their motivator, and guiding force.

Bush is a prime example.....

I hesitate to even put legal and religious terms in the same sentence, since I don't think they should be mixed period.

[twoanickel]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I say: Well, while it may or may not be, I try to stop investigating at the laws and fraud and not carry into the motives behind it to that level. I would agree for the most part, since I think there is a lot of "fundamentalist" or "extremists" in government who use religion as their motivator, and guiding force. Bush is a prime example..... I hesitate to even put legal and religious terms in the same sentence, since I don't think they should be mixed period.

Bush is a prime example?? My foot! I was warning people about Bush before the election in 2000. Bush is a Bonesman, which boils down to a satanist. The agenda of the Order of Skull and Bones in gaining power was to infiltrate all levels of influence--education, business, psychology, politics, the media, etc. One area of influence they were determined to infiltrate was the church, and that seems to be Bush's specialty. A lot of people will mindlessly follow anyone who wags a Bible around on Sunday and ocassionally refers to Scripture even if they misuse it. If Bush is a prime example, why were some people onto him before his first presidential campaign started?
He is a bonesman, and he doesn't care if he gives those who do not know better the chance to accuse people of faith.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I would agree for the most part, since I think there is a lot of "fundamentalist" or "extremists" in government who use religion as their motivator, and guiding force. Bush is a prime example.....

Only the second time (IMHO) in many months that Os has blown a call. Religion is merely a tool for bush, to be used when needed. Certainly not a guiding force for him.

[Osborn F Enready]

Zee said: Only the second time (IMHO) in many months that Os has blown a call.

I say:
Thanks Zee, I appreciate that.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Has the US Federal power structure been undermined to an extent that we may have weapons drawn on a massive scale? Who would support the current regime and who would oppose it by force of arms?

As long as there is a room for talks, there is no need for arms.

If the People come to the conclusion that a governig body has become oppresive, then the People should create bodies to force a governing body to change its stance.
The point :
- how many well-educated people are out there ?
I see many "wanna-become a politician", as of today. A complete political morons, and I am not wondered a governing body does not even attempt to communicate with (them).
Just like a farmer is about to be forced by a chicken to negotiate :-)
Even so, what to negotiate, about ?
The level and/or gap between both is impassable to cross.
U.S. political opposition scene is on a level of kindergerten.
(I can donate some crayons, if they are missing and/or lacking ones).

[Beer]

The patriot needs not intelligence, only heart and courage and a reason to lift himself from the chair and love his country. We can talk and babble, but it will do nothing. Love of country comes from the soul. And the soulless are prominent. And they have children. Imagine that. We are the model of freedom and that freedom is considered deserved by birth. Are we to relent that freedom because we are afraid of the consequences? I say no. But if my country needs to go to war from time to time and the soldiers who fight that war are volunteers than why should I complain while I sit at home whining and they sleep in bunkers in the desert awaiting their firefight morning. Our freedom is based on us. If you feel oppressed because someone else bleeds for you, why do you awake at all?

[Clarence]

Quote by: Beer The patriot needs not intelligence, only heart and courage and a reason to lift himself from the chair and love his country.

No intelligence to be a Patriot? Well maybe it's not the most important things but we must act intelligently to regain what was lost. We pretty much need a hero at this point.

We can talk and babble, but it will do nothing. Love of country comes from the soul.

Love of our environment comes from the soul, maybe. Love of country depends on what that county is about.

And the soulless are prominent. And they have children. Imagine that.

The souless are prominent. I'm wondering if you gravitate towards them in search of prominence.

We are the model of freedom and that freedom is considered deserved by birth.

yep. sure looks that way.

Are we to relent that freedom because we are afraid of the consequences? I say no.

hear, hear. But what to do?

But if my country needs to go to war from time to time and the soldiers who fight that war are volunteers than why should I complain while I sit at home whining and they sleep in bunkers in the desert awaiting their firefight morning. Our freedom is based on us. If you feel oppressed because someone else bleeds for you, why do you awake at all?

but do you bleed forthem ?

I don't feel oppressed yet. But the stage is set...

go back to sleep dear.

[Osborn F Enready]

If every person fought only for their own liberty, this nation, this WORLD would be a better place.

Refuse to accept injustice daily, and injustice will stop its prevalence.

[Critter]

Quote by: Isherwood Why even have parties? Why shouldn't each person run on their own merits, their own solutions to the issues? I'd rather vote for someone that says, "I'l do ----- and -----" than a person who just spouts the party line.

Not only that, but keep their promises.

But, yeah, I agree with you. I don't se the point of parties myself.

[Chris]

Heh,
Didnt we already talk about this sort of thing here?

[Beer]

I feel no need to be too personal. Responsibility should show you the way. To country, to posterity, to future. You have only one chance. What can you do with it?

[abub]

Quote by: PatrickHenry A recently deleted topic broached an interesting question: Is a violent civil war likely in America in the near future? The original of this topic was deleted because it had been posted by a one hit wonder, and duplicates were found on other discussion boards, leading to the conclusion that it was spam. The original also seemed a bit rambling and not up to the quality of serious debate we often engage in here on Volconvo. However, it generated some thoughtful responses and its deletion spawned a discussion of how and why topics are deleted, as well as some members' regret that the topic was no longer in play. So here is another chance, folks. Has the US Federal power structure been undermined to an extent that we may have weapons drawn on a massive scale? Who would support the current regime and who would oppose it by force of arms? What are the trends and forces causing this discussion to be taken seriously? What would it take to restore balance and trust in the Feds? Is that even a possibility?

hmm, a 21st centurt american civil war. sounds pretty catchy and a very exciting idea, but seeing as only about 25% of the american people are active in politics at any given time, i doubt it. the general public just doesn't care that much. mass rallies and protests are one thing but predicting that people will rise up in arms against the government sounds highly unlikely.

[Osborn F Enready]

abub said: hmm, a 21st centurt american civil war. sounds pretty catchy and a very exciting idea, but seeing as only about 25% of the american people are active in politics at any given time, i doubt it.

I say:
What is 25% of 300,000,000 people? The answer is 75,000,000 people. There are currently over 60 Million LEGALLY registered gun owners.

I think I personally, if forced to (by circumstance) could over-throw this country with less than 1 million armed people, if I could train them for AT LEAST 3 weeks prior. I could definitely do it with 30 Million un-trained militiamen, with 2 million ex-servicemen to lead and train on the fly with even crude communications.

I think 1000 hardcore, well trained operators could do it if they had solid communication ability. (secure satellite uplink, with scramblers)

Tactically, a rebellion in this nation, or another civil war, would be a no-win situation for government.

abub said: mass rallies and protests are one thing but predicting that people will rise up in arms against the government sounds highly unlikely.

I say:
I think it depends on how long we "stay the course" of government, and more specifically, how long the two major parties control our system of government.

[abub]

that 25%, or 75,000,000 people, is only the amount of people who are somewhat aware when it comes to political issues and government activity. of those, i doubt many would raise up in arms against the government and risk their lives in the process. if anything, i think more people would provide resistance against those who would revolt, for the sole reason that people feel secure walking down the street when an organized government is around.

anyways, even if somebody is fed up with what our politicians are doing, isn't the best weapon against them your ballot on election day? we have it better here in the states than most people do worldwide. if you want to see change, the only realistic way that it'll happen (imo) is to join or create organizations that support a specific platform of policy and use large amounts of voters as a weapon. also, as you have already stated in the thread, write your congressman.

[angeldust]

Quote by: abub anyways, even if somebody is fed up with what our politicians are doing, isn't the best weapon against them your ballot on election day? we have it better here in the states than most people do worldwide. if you want to see change, the only realistic way that it'll happen (imo) is to join or create organizations that support a specific platform of policy and use large amounts of voters as a weapon. also, as you have already stated in the thread, write your congressman.

This is one of the reasons a revolution will not occur, most citizens actually believe that this is the only way a change can occur in a democracy.
TPTB (The Powers That Be) ensure that things are kept just so, so that changes by them can be made gradually over time in such a way that the UDM (Unwashed Dirty Masses) will bitch & complain but never really rise up.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: abub anyways, even if somebody is fed up with what our politicians are doing, isn't the best weapon against them your ballot on election day? ...

Not a bad idea except for the huge and growing problem of election fraud.
FRAUD!

[Osborn F Enready]

The ballot box is no longer valid, as it is no longer "safe", or verifiable.

Our system of voting, voting security, and the entire system of rules surrounding voting, are BUNK, crap, worthless and a travesty of shame on our society that claims to "the land of the free, home of the brave"........

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready .... "the land of the free, home of the brave"........

Like the Geneva Conventions and the Bill of Rights, just "quaint" old-fashioned customs written down on a GD piece of paper.