Why Should Taxpayers Fund a Black Budget?

[brien]

Quote by: Charon That's the funny thing, we can do something about it. But, it takes "Joe six-pack" to put down his beer, tv remote, and get up off of his ass to make it happen. Marx once said, "religion is the opiate of the masses". Now, it's sports, racial unrest, etc. Whatever can be brought to the forefront to alter the focus of the people "en masse", and keep them from turning a scrutinizing eye upon the federal government; which has become a self-perpetuating engine feeding off of those it's supposed to protect.

And it's still raining here on Tuesday. Ughhhhhhh :(

You're correct about people changing government. Government makes it diffcult on purpose, and politicans have created machine of perpetual re election which further demoralizes "Joe Sixpack." Believe me, many, many politicans WANT Joe Sixpack to stay home on election day.

[PatrickHenry]

Hey Apeman, what do you think about this?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...-budgets_x.htm

An independent investigation has found that imprisoned former Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham took advantage of secrecy and badgered congressional aides to help slip items into classified bills that would benefit him and his associates. <<snip>> Cunningham's case has put a stark spotlight on the oversight of classified — or "black" — budgets. Unlike legislation dealing with social and economic issues, intelligence bills and parts of defense bills are written in private, in the name of national security. <<snip>> Secret legislation long has been a tool for pet projects. In the early 1990s, Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., used classified legislation to try to move one-third of the CIA from Washington's Virginia suburbs to his home state. In one episode stretching from 1999 until at least 2001, tensions between the then-chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., and the Defense Intelligence Agency peaked when Shelby used his panel's legislation to direct significant chunks of the agency's budget to projects in a science-intensive spying discipline called Measurement and Signatures Intelligence. The projects he pressed for benefited aerospace-focused Hunstville, Ala. <<snip>>Jim Currie, a Democratic aide on the Senate committee from 1985 to 1991, said classified bills are the perfect place to slip in provisions not scrutinized. Rarely do members of Congress examine the legislation, which is stored in safes in each committee's windowless, vault-like offices. Congressional aides play an important role in reviewing the bills for items that are suspicious. But Stern, the auditor for the House Intelligence Committee, found that Cunningham harassed staff members to get his way, undermining that oversight. Once, when an aide found out that a Cunningham spending priority had been changed, he wrote in an e-mail: "I am under my desk, ducking and covering."

Here's our representatives stealing you blind with their secret budget. They are indeed hardworking and dedicated... to making themsevelves rich, lol!

[Osborn F Enready]

brien said: You know we are mostly all going to disagree with this budget but what are we supposed to do about it? Withhold our income taxes and go to jail?

I say:
Some of us are doing that type of thing, perhaps those that won't, should do others?

[bishop]

these "black budgets" exist in nearly every country with a real military (i.e. one that isn't a laughing stock)...

the stealth bomber was built with a black budget, and i think it was worth it. i also think it was worthwhile to keep this project private so that our competitors wouldn't be able to instantly develop defenses to nullify the bomber's stealth advantage..

that said, there have also been numerous instances where these budgets have been horrendously abused (like iran-contra)..

i'd prefer they stay secret, but a select-panel from congress should have oversight responsibilities.

[Fonceai]

I'm with bishop.

And I know that the reason they don't tell what they're spending the money on is because they don't want other countries finding out about it.

Finding out after the fact is fine, and happens quite often, but while something is in progress, I'd rather our enemies not develop advanced radar systems while we are developing a jet meant to defeat current radar, for example.

[bishop]

good, unbiased article on the topic...

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/me...end1-9702.html

[brien]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I say: Some of us are doing that type of thing, perhaps those that won't, should do others?

I do no one any good sitting in jail, ruined by the IRS. Least of all, myself and my family. I will be the first to admit that I am forced to pay taxes. But I am better serving the cause to eliminate the IRS throught the elimination of an income tax, than sitting in jail convicted of income tax violations. Obviously, on one side, this is a purely selfish viewpoint, but imo, it is also the most practical. Who can depend upon millions of American not paying income taxes when it is mostly withheld from their paychecks. And those of us who pay income taxes 1/4ly, and then annually, mostly have small business that would be ruined by not paying income taxes. There just aren't enough independent businesses, and people who pay taxes on a 1099, to force the government to do anything, least of all, eliminate the income tax.

The elimination of the income tax has to originate with the Ways and Means Committee in the House. Voters need to elect members to the house who eschew taxation of income. Voters need to be educated as to why income taxes stifle production. Voters must insist upon candidates who reflect their intentions to eliminate the income tax, if that is what the majority of citizens desire. There is no other way short of revolution which isn't happening anytime soon.

[bishop]

and there's always that little nuance where you need to have some income in order to be required to pay income taxes..

[brien]

Quote by: bishop and there's always that little nuance where you need to have some income in order to be required to pay income taxes..

Yeah. As hard as I try every year, I just can't help but earning enough money to be liable.

[bishop]

heh, i have the opposite problem "unfortunately"...

i need to get a house or something to increase my deductions.. as it is, i won't be able to get the max, $5k, deduction for tuition this year - something that's helped me loads in the past. best i'll get is interest on my student loan.

[brien]

Quote by: bishop heh, i have the opposite problem "unfortunately"... i need to get a house or something to increase my deductions.. as it is, i won't be able to get the max, $5k, deduction for tuition this year - something that's helped me loads in the past. best i'll get is interest on my student loan.

Yeah but with your education your are headed to join us 10% of the taxpayers that pay 90% of the tax revenue. Be prepared to write some hefty checks to the "Department of the Treasury." No more issuing checks to the IRS. Devious dudes but we still know where the money goes.

Even a Condo will help you with deductions.

Speaking of tuitons and books, I just lost my daughters tuition and books last year because she is now over 24 now. Glad she is graduating this year.

Going to throw a giant wing ding here under a tent outside next May.

Good luck on your education. Let us know when you are slated to graduate.

Oh, btw, NH property taxes are higher, but fully deductible, than other NE states, but the absence of a sales and income tax, not deductible, more than makes up for it. My next car will be purchased and registered in NH. Going up this weekend to scout small towns in the "Lakes region." We expect to be there by this time next year.

[Osborn F Enready]

Well, as Bishop said about the "notion" of being under the taxable income level, that is my goal.

I live on the cheap, only buy what I have to, or desperately desire, and barter the rest.

Eventually, when I am on my own in Montana, or wherever I settle, this will be much easier with my own property to work. I plan on offsetting my supposed yearly "tax burden" of my land, with parcels that are rented from the edges of that land by me, to another who is seeking to rent, buy or sharecrop.

I am not saying we all should go to jail for tax protesting. I am saying we should do all we can to starve the tax system of funds from individuals, in whatever form we find acceptable to our own individual situation, unless of course, you are a corporation.

I take it you know my stand on corporate personhood?

[brien]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Well, as Bishop said about the "notion" of being under the taxable income level, that is my goal. I live on the cheap, only buy what I have to, or desperately desire, and barter the rest. Eventually, when I am on my own in Montana, or wherever I settle, this will be much easier with my own property to work. I plan on offsetting my supposed yearly "tax burden" of my land, with parcels that are rented from the edges of that land by me, to another who is seeking to rent, buy or sharecrop. I am not saying we all should go to jail for tax protesting. I am saying we should do all we can to starve the tax system of funds from individuals, in whatever form we find acceptable to our own individual situation, unless of course, you are a corporation. I take it you know my stand on corporate personhood?

Os, I admire your plan of starving the tax collector but surely you realize that the sheeple, who are mostly subjected to withholding payments, can't do anything like what you suggest. They mostly have to work "regular" jobs and few never even recognize their tax payments to the govenment. It is only the idividual that can make a difference as you suggest. And this country surpresses individualism wherever it rears its "nasty head" . We individualists are becomming scarce.

You are a relatively young fella and in relative good health. My dilemmas stem from having to be near top notch medical care. The older one gets, the more visits you will make to these facilities, unless of course one resigns themselves to using only herbal and homeopathic treatment for injuries and illness. However, this can shorten one's life span considerably. So people like me are forced to participate in the modern medical system which I mostly find in the urban areas, with one exception being the Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center in Hanover NH. Their Norris Cotton Cancer Institue is world reknown.


So reocation to NH on a small gentleman's farm can help, but it won't remove me entirely from the long arm of the taxman.

[Fonceai]

If enough people are living just at the level where they get back their taxed income, the gov't will probably find a way to change that. At least, the current government would. Who knows what the elections of 2007 will bring?

[PatrickHenry]

I think the black budget conceals a lot of stuff . Some of it naked graft, as I documented above. Some of it is covert operations that may be to promote democracy, but more likely promtes tyranny and undermines popular rulers. And some is for secret military projects that may be defensive in nature or more likely are tools of an expansionist, militaristic Empire that is currently eating out the heart of our (former) republic.

How can the citizens know the difference, and why should we trust the pols?

[bishop]

our representative form of government requires the public to put their faith in elected officials to represent their interests.. if people elected politicians who could be held to account (rather than decade-old incumbents or the two-party whores), then we would be able to better trust the politicians...

there are good and bad parts to these black budgets, and obviously their secrecy makes them easy to abuse. more congressional oversight is needed imo, rather than spill all this information out for public (and foreign) consumption. and if voters could actually be counted on to elected responsible, accountable representatives, then we wouldn't have to worry nearly as much about corruption and abuses of power. i do think, however, that congressional oversight should be increased regardless of who's elected...

[Osborn F Enready]

I think basic understanding of the role of government should be a necessary requirement in both taking the office, and in comparison to the actions a representative has taken since being in office.

I would fault representatives if they actually REPRESENTED the people, but how many times are census taken, and how often do your reps query your opinions on anything? I know we shouldn't be censused for EVERY decision, but most assuredly, we should be censused on things that affect the entire state, or nation, for example, ANY rights issue such as the patriot act.

If my "poor" representative doesn't even have time to read the bill he/she is voting on, they don't have the time to serve their post and duties, and should step down ASAP, or be removed.

NONE, NO, ZILCH read the patriot act before it was passed, and few read the revision. Maurice Hinchey admitted this on open air on C-Span when I called in and asked him. That is treason, or conspiracy to commit treason, or failure of sworn duty, of the obligation to protect american citizens rights, by all signers who passed that bill. To me, that is simply inexcusable, period.

[Fonceai]

@Osborn

You went on about The Patriot Act but what does that have to do with Black Budgets and representation?

[Osborn F Enready]

How you have no control over governments use of your funds, that are taken by threat of force.

How you have no control over governments action to pass laws that infringe your rights on many levels, without reading it.

My point is, we are looking at a government that has little check on its authority, because there is little penalty for doing wrong, and doing wrong is a profitable business when laws are as far reaching as they are.