Hawaii - US State or Independent Kingdom?

[castille]

Hey maybe England should return Scotland to its free state.

What about Northern Ireland? Catalona? The "former" Free state of Brittany? Or shouldnt Burgundy be given its independence, as it used to also be free from French imperialism? Oh and what about Holstein? That used to be independent before evil England and Prussia marched in. Not to mention Hannover, the free state too....

[dotcoma]

Careful with blanket statements. Northern Ireland is an occupied territory. That much is obvious.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by castille, Hey maybe England should return Scotland to its free state. What about Northern Ireland? Catalona? The "former" Free state of Brittany? Or shouldnt Burgundy be given its independence, as it used to also be free from French imperialism? Oh and what about Holstein? That used to be independent before evil England and Prussia marched in. Not to mention Hannover, the free state too....

Could you address the question without obfuscation? Would you care to contribute to the discussion of the Hawaiian Kingdom?

[castille]

Do Hawaiians themselves support independence? Or is it like those Basque seperatists?

[PatrickHenry]

Sentiment in Hawaii is divided. The races are very mixed, with families of all different nationalities. Racism is hardly a factor in Hawaii's social life. Many elderly have contributed all their lives to the SS system and fear losing retirement benefits. Same thing with military retirees, with the added factor of mainlanders who choose to retire near their last duty station or the one they remember most fondly.

However, Hawaii is, in many ways, a foreign nation. There is an original language, culture, indigenous race not entirely mongrelized or decimated. The place names remain and there is an awareness of the former government. I don't wish to over emphasize this, for there is also much affinity. Caucasians are an accepted element of the local situation, and many vehicles sport US flag bumperstickers.

In answer to your question, castille, yes there is a strong measure of support for independence, though it is by no means universal. I am not aware of any polls.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: castille Do Hawaiians themselves support independence? Or is it like those Basque seperatists?

Hawaiian Declaration of Independence

The Kingdom of Hawai’i Nou Ke Akua Ke Aupuni O’ Hawai’i Announces Secession From the United States of America

As far as I can tell, it was not challenged.
Go in Peace.
God says "Your Welcome"
Aloha!

[Mr.Vicchio]

Well.. the civil war kinda made taking such action..pointless. I don't think it's possible to leave this union. Nor should it be.

If we pulled every last Military, federal and civil dollar and person out of Hawaii.. it would get bought by Japan lol. If that's what they want...

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Well.. the civil war kinda made taking such action..pointless. I don't think it's possible to leave this union. Nor should it be. If we pulled every last Military, federal and civil dollar and person out of Hawaii.. it would get bought by Japan lol. If that's what they want...

What if the nation was taken into the US by force, without the consent of those born to the land? Would you have said that Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia should not be given their independence back?

Bought by Japan??? What is so wrong with a nation maintaining an awareness of their own tradition and separateness? The US was one of the Kingdom of Hawaii's best friends. Is this how friendly nations should treat one another? By siezing and holding the territory in an aggressive manner and refusing to acknowlege their culpability?

Well, at least the Congress apologized and the President signed the apology...

But what of the status quo ante?

[Nono]

Question: Is there any provision in the US constitution expressly banning secession? If not, it's hard to see what, in principle, could prevent it.

Warning: Unless Hawaiians achieved a solid consensus that they desired independence and were willing to pay the material costs involved (drop in the standard of living?), you would be in for an endless all-het-up rigmarole à la québécoise.

After a 40-year independence struggle, all that seems certain is that Quebeckers want independence as long as they get to have their cake and eat it too. Which of course they'll never get. Which of course will keep things going round and round.

Also, any serious independence move would have to be preceded by a referendum (no doubt courtesy of Diebold...). The federal government would probably find a way of bringing in a million of so mainlanders -- as the Moroccans have in Western Sahara -- making a meaningful vote impossible.

So Hawaiians would have to decide that they really want it, and then show great perseverance. And even then, it hardly seems possible.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Nono Question: Is there any provision in the US constitution expressly banning secession? If not, it's hard to see what, in principle, could prevent it.

To my knowledge there is no law saying that a state may not disassociate itself with the USA.

Quote by: Nono So Hawaiians would have to decide that they really want it, and then show great perseverance. And even then, it hardly seems possible.

It seems impossible because the US is IN FACT a global hegemon that has siezed and held a nation 2400 miles away from its closest mainland shores. (For over one hundred years) And the US has a powerful military and an attitude that it has never done anything wrong. Not to mention that a previous group of states seeking a different national course was beaten to a pulp militarily in order to "Preserve the Union". Well, I don't care about any "Union." It makes no difference to me if the USA falls apart entirely. (Not that I am predicting such)

But in the event that Hawaii becomes a sovereign nation again, I would anticipate a friendship and an alliance with the US. (Unless a military conflict is required to break free.) There are many caucasian people who would likely choose to remain as citizens of a sovereign Hawaii, and many mixed-race families.

[Milton Bradley]

Man, did my previous posts get edited by the software?


I sound like cave man.

[GHook93]

Quote by: PatrickHenry </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,) California leaving the Union just clear debt and that would be oh so sweet.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Too bad so much property belongs to the Feds. If their property goes, maybe the debt goes with it, heh, heh, heh.

It is funny you present this question, because if the Hawaiian separatist received independence they would kick the whites out of the country (that includes you).

In all respects, the native Hawaiians do have a valid claim. The vote to establish Hawaii as a state was a crock. They were the first inhabitants. Yet it won't happen in the forseeable future.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: GHook93 It is funny you present this question, because if the Hawaiian separatist received independence they would kick the whites out of the country (that includes you).

Why do you continue to repeat these lies? Do you have evidence? Or are you simply pathological?

Quote by: GHook93 In all respects, the native Hawaiians do have a valid claim. The vote to establish Hawaii as a state was a crock. They were the first inhabitants. Yet it won't happen in the forseeable future.

[Jern_Sandyer]

Quote by: GHook93 In all respects, the native Hawaiians do have a valid claim. The vote to establish Hawaii as a state was a crock. They were the first inhabitants. Yet it won't happen in the forseeable future.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) if you were to let that happen it would set a president (sp?) for the entirety of America to fall off the map as the Native American land the WAS stolen (Indian Wars, unfulfilled treaties...) from the natives so they have just as much claim. History has happened and we can not change it. We must however make the best of it and try not to repeat bad mistakes.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Jern_Sandyer Unfortunately (or fortunately) if you were to let that happen it would set a president (sp?) for the entirety of America to fall off the map as the Native American land the WAS stolen (Indian Wars, unfulfilled treaties...) from the natives so they have just as much claim. History has happened and we can not change it. We must however make the best of it and try not to repeat bad mistakes.

Hawaii will remain a state, unless there is a "Jericho" type forced implosion of the government.

[Mozart1220]

Quote by: RightThinker </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,) Interesting. I think that you showed me a unique perspective; I didn't realize anyone was fighting for independence. I know there is a California Secessionist Party though, which I support. I think that if Hawaii were to leave the Union we would treat it like any other small country and guts it economy, exploit it for cheap sugar, and allow it to crumble.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Now even I would support California becoming independent. Their policies are detrimental to the safety of the rest of our nation. As for Hawaii. We will never let them go. If we did we would have to spend all of our time worrying about them allying with our enemies. They are too close to our shore to become unstable. Plus they could not sustain themselves. We do not need another expense that never earns us any money. (ie Virgin Islands)

How are California's policies "detrimental" and why are Bush's NOT? Isn't the Iraq war an "expence that never earns us any money"? (Though I'm certain that certainpeople are getting VERY rich from it)

[Montag]

England has officially recognized Scotland as a seperate kingdom. The United Kingdom established in 1740 is now two individual kingdoms. The country that once ruled an empire larger than Alexander the Great, is now reduced to that of half and island. Read How Scotland Invented The Modern World. By Arthur Herman

[RVonse]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Could you address the question without obfuscation? Would you care to contribute to the discussion of the Hawaiian Kingdom?

I think there have been too many changes for Hawaii ever to pretend to be independent again. Even during my lifetime, there have been considerable unbelievable changes to Hawaii.

I first visited Honolulu in the early 70's and what I saw of the same place last year made my jaw drop. Back in the 70's pineapple and sugar cane was all over the place, grown and exported. Now all the fields that used to be pineapple farms have been paved over with expensive high rises and housing now. And in 1974 I can remember driving from the airport to the motel with little or no traffic. The same trip last year was congested with New York city style parking lot traffic. So for better or worse, I think Honolulu is nothing but another major U.S. city now. There's nothing the same as it was and there is really no going back anymore. And thats only 35 years that I have personally witnessed. I can only imagine what changes there have been since the late 1800's. There have certainly been some serious and massive changes (some might call them improvements) done on all of the major Hawaiian islands since the late 1800's.

So I think letting Hawaii go back to the natives would make about the same amount of sense as letting South Dakota go back to the Apache Indians. Another words, no sense at all.

[Zeebadee]

If Hawaii really wants to go off on their own, I'm all for it. Lets see how effective some local government can be in dealing with big money foreign interests.

I've been to Hawaii, don't really care much for it, if they think they can do better on their own, I say go for it. I did really like Patty's Chinese kitchen in the Ala Moana shopping mall though..... an unbelieveable selection of great food. I could eat there every day and never get tired of the choices.

Independence or not, who really GAS? Do what you want, I know my dollars will always be welcome there.