The Block Universe Theory

[Lullaby Chainer]

For those of you who are not familair with the Block Universe Theory, I'll provide a short summary. There are plenty of resources online if you wish to continue your study.

Block time is one way of approaching the problem of the nature of time. Its name is derived from its description of space-time as an unchanging four-dimensional "block", as opposed to a three-dimensional space that changes as it moves along a time axis.

In the conventional concept of how the passage of time operates, time is divided into three distinct regions; the "past", the "present", and the "future". The past is generally seen as being immutably fixed, and the future as undefined and nebulous. As time passes the current present becomes part of the past, and part of the future becomes the new present. In this way time is said to pass, with a distinct present moment "moving" forward into the future and leaving the past behind.

This model of time presents a number of difficult problems, both philosophically and in terms of current accepted scientific theories. For example, special relativity has shown that the concept of simultaneity is not universal, with different frames of reference having different perceptions of which events are in the future and which are in the past; there is no way to definitively identify a particular point in universal time as "the present". Furthermore, there is no fundamental reason why a particular "present" should be more valid than any other; observers at any point in time will always consider themselves to be in the present. Even the concept of "time passing" can be considered to be internally inconsistent, by asking "how fast does time pass?"

Block time overcomes these various difficulties by considering all points in time to be equally valid frames of reference, equally "real" if one prefers. It does not do away with the concept of past and future, but instead considers them as directions rather than as a state of being; whether some point in time is in the future or past is entirely dependent on which frame of reference you are using as a basis for observing it.

Since an observer at any given point in time can only remember events that are in the past relative to him, and not events that are in the future relative to him, the subjective illusion of the passage of time is maintained. The asymmetry of remembering past events but not future ones, as well as other irreversible events that progress in only one temporal direction (such as the increase in entropy) gives rise to the arrow of time. In reality, there is no passage of time; the ticking of a clock measures durations between events much as the marks on a measuring tape measures distances between places.

Block time has implications for the concept of free will, in that it proposes that future events are as immutably fixed and impossible to change as past events (see determinism). This will prove less troublesome if true that time behaves like another dimension of space. It's well-understood that there is no such thing as a ubiquitous present moment - a "now" - on, say, a galactic scale; similar arguments would show that the concept of block time is meaningful over only short "distances" of time. Also, the question about free will can be sidestepped by dropping the unwarranted assumption that each person's conscious experience is merely an epiphenomenon of matter and hence totally isolated from all others. As Jacques Barzun noted in From Dawn to Decadence: 500 Years of Western Cultural Life, the human will would in fact be "distributed among all the living."

Block time makes two assumptions, which are separable. One is that time is a full-fledged real dimension. The other is immutability. The latter is not a necessary consequence of the first. If random changes are possible, the result may be indistinguishable from the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.

Augustine of Hippo wrote that God is outside of time—that time exists only within the created universe. Many theologians (especially Catholics) agree. On this view, God would perceive something like block time, while time might appear differently to us finite beings.

Do you think the Block Universe Theory makes sense? Does anyone else have any theories of their own on the nature of time?

[tman_ndsu08]

My problem with it is that it claims there are problems with the current system.

There aren't any.


If you say that the creation of the universe is time t=0, then time has been passing from the future to the present at a rate of 1 second per second.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 My problem with it is that it claims there are problems with the current system. There aren't any. If you say that the creation of the universe is time t=0, then time has been passing from the future to the present at a rate of 1 second per second.

O.o wtf? It has nothing to do with that. We know what time feels like, this is about what time is.

I have a hard time believing your supposed "current system" (which you for some reason noted as being "the" current system) is credible when you've posted only a sentence as if that actually explains what time is.

All you've done is explained what a clock does, or any measurer of time. Yes, we can "click click click" our way through time, measuring it all we want, but if you'd actually take the time to read the theory, you would know that this is about things way beyond that.

[tman_ndsu08]

Time is an abstract mathematical concept.

It's not tangible and doesn't apply to the real universe.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Time is an abstract mathematical concept. It's not tangible and doesn't apply to the real universe.

Actually, yes it does. This universe would not exist without time. It is more than a mathematical concept. It is a philosophy, a question, a puzzle, a mystery, a principle, idea, engine, resource, and I think you severley simplify the matter by never looking beyond counting seconds.

[tman_ndsu08]

The universe has existed without time since it was created.


Time is just a label for the bottom axis on a cartesian plot.

[Technosoul]

This happened a few weeks ago.

I woke up from a dream and was able to recall it. The images were of dogs running in a neighbors front door and my cat was near the door, in this dream I said "stupid cat, don't trust those dogs". In the next instant the dream showed an image of my call laying lifeless on the ground covered in mud and blood.

Two days later my cat was attacked during the night by a dog, and died bleeding from the injury, and looked just like the images in the dream of a few nights before.

So how could I see now (via a dream) what would take place at a future time? And how can I explain that relative to current theories about time?

And it I had acted on what I saw in the dream, and kept my cat inside the house, would that have altered the future? Such that the incident could not have come into now, nor the past, and so forth?

More interesting - could a tragic event send shockwaves from a future now into the past which is our current now?

Next question - why do i live such a strange life? ( on 2nd thought, don't answer that one).

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 The universe has existed without time since it was created. Time is just a label for the bottom axis on a cartesian plot.

You still ignore the questions. Time is more than that. I'm asking HOW does a hand of a clock get from where it was, to where it is, to where it will be?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Technosoul This happened a few weeks ago. I woke up from a dream and was able to recall it. The images were of dogs running in a neighbors front door and my cat was near the door, in this dream I said "stupid cat, don't trust those dogs". In the next instant the dream showed an image of my call laying lifeless on the ground covered in mud and blood. Two days later my cat was attacked during the night by a dog, and died bleeding from the injury, and looked just like the images in the dream of a few nights before. So how could I see now (via a dream) what would take place at a future time? And how can I explain that relative to current theories about time? And it I had acted on what I saw in the dream, and kept my cat inside the house, would that have altered the future? Such that the incident could not have come into now, nor the past, and so forth? More interesting - could a tragic event send shockwaves from a future now into the past which is our current now? Next question - why do i live such a strange life? ( on 2nd thought, don't answer that one).

Perhaps, if we are speaking in terms of the Block Universe Theory, your conciousness moves more freely through the block than the physical objects around us? Perhaps your consciosness of the future, had connections with your consciousness of the past. This is all assuming it wasn't all just a coincidence, of course.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I'm asking HOW does a hand of a clock get from where it was, to where it is, to where it will be?

Force moves matter through space.

Time is just a way to plot the movement and keep a record of it.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Force moves matter through space. Time is just a way to plot the movement and keep a record of it.

I didn't ask WHAT it is, I asked HOW it works. It's not as simple as what you make it seem. I could tell you an apple is just a fruit. But an apple is also red, or green, yellow, and sometimes a mixture of many colors. It grows on a tree. It has components, purpose, and life cycles. PLEASE read the post. It is about time being a full fledged DIMENSION and not just a way of counting seconds.

[Boetie]

Would there be time if there were no humans?

Anthropomorphism is a strong thing.

[westcoastdog]

I read a fair amount of physics, and this is my first encounter with Block Universe Theory (BUT). Researching BUT further, it appears to me to be more of a philosophical issue rather than scientific. As some of you may be aware, time is both a philosophical and scientific conundrum. Yet, although we can't explain it very well, we can accomplish amazing scientific-technological feats like successfully orbiting satellites around Mars and Venus.

Does BUT have any practical consequences?

Quote: In reality, there is no passage of time.

That statement requires extensive elucidation, especially since our physical world operates with the passage of time.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer It is about time being a full fledged DIMENSION and not just a way of counting seconds.

Well I'm telling you that it's just a math concept.

Yes, actually, it is a dimension. Dimensions are math concepts.

It was useful to us in analysis to consider it as a 4th dimension.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Well I'm telling you that it's just a math concept. Yes, actually, it is a dimension. Dimensions are math concepts. It was useful to us in analysis to consider it as a 4th dimension.

Yes, but you don't seem to understand. It isn't just math. The theory is that time is a TANGIBLE dimension. That all presents are equally valuable. All presents exists equally, and they do not cease to exist. The only thing that changes is our perspective. But time itself is an immense array, or block, or existances that give the illusion of time with the use of perspectives throughout the block. You keep telling me about how time is just counting seconds but this is beyond that. We all know time can be counted by seconds or the hand of a clock.

The idea is that there is no passage of time.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: westcoastdog I read a fair amount of physics, and this is my first encounter with Block Universe Theory (BUT). Researching BUT further, it appears to me to be more of a philosophical issue rather than scientific. As some of you may be aware, time is both a philosophical and scientific conundrum. Yet, although we can't explain it very well, we can accomplish amazing scientific-technological feats like successfully orbiting satellites around Mars and Venus. Does BUT have any practical consequences? That statement requires extensive elucidation, especially since our physical world operates with the passage of time.

Yes, it is a philosophical idea and not at all a science. Philosophy doesn't always stay within the boundaries of our testable world. To be honest, it's greatest purpose (atleast in this theory) is to challenge our minds. It's only pleasurable, really.

All we have to ask ourselves is... "wow.. that's interesting, but is it possible? does it make sense?"

lol.. the BUT theory.. ^^

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer The theory is that time is a TANGIBLE dimension. The idea is that there is no passage of time.

So it exists and it doesn't exist?

Where are the time particles? How much mass do they have?

What about anti-time?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 So it exists and it doesn't exist? Where are the time particles? How much mass do they have? What about anti-time?

It's not about "time particles". There is no time. Try reading the theory, I can't hold your hand through this.

[westcoastdog]

So does your understanding of BUT preclude the "arrow of time?"

Also is BUT a relevant concept in the discussions of alternate universes, Branes, and the 11 dimensions of string theory.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: westcoastdog Also is BUT a relevant concept in the discussions of alternate universes, Branes, and the 11 dimensions of string theory.

I think it would be seperate. There's no reason we could still have alternate universes. This theory would only imply that each universe is.. well... a block.