The Block Universe Theory

[rcne]

Time doesn't exist for a photon.. And the block theory seems to just be an analogy for slices of time in matter. Though I have read recently that time wouldn't/couldn't exist without matter. So in that sense our three dimensions plus time could be considered four dimensions with time being 'just' a dimension.

That would make our journey a loaf of bread composed of spacetime from the beginning to the end with us just passing slice to slice through spacetime. I believe entropy will hold though, matter changes but time is outside and unchangeable, or existing for just each planc-lenght unit of time

And Athena I do believe there is something to predetermination. The past can influence the direction of now, and also the future. How or why becomes a matter of entanglement.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Block time overcomes these various difficulties by considering all points in time to be equally valid frames of reference, equally "real" if one prefers. It does not do away with the concept of past and future, but instead considers them as directions rather than as a state of being; whether some point in time is in the future or past is entirely dependent on which frame of reference you are using as a basis for observing it. Since an observer at any given point in time can only remember events that are in the past relative to him, and not events that are in the future relative to him, the subjective illusion of the passage of time is maintained. The asymmetry of remembering past events but not future ones, as well as other irreversible events that progress in only one temporal direction (such as the increase in entropy) gives rise to the arrow of time. In reality, there is no passage of time; the ticking of a clock measures durations between events much as the marks on a measuring tape measures distances between places. Augustine of Hippo wrote that God is outside of time—that time exists only within the created universe. Many theologians (especially Catholics) agree. On this view, God would perceive something like block time, while time might appear differently to us finite beings. Do you think the Block Universe Theory makes sense? Does anyone else have any theories of their own on the nature of time?

#2
I disagree with Augustine.

Since the God has created the Environment the Man dwells within, The God is the Time as well.
A note aside :
- the God not necessarily resides within the same Environment, all the time.
It has a control over that, though.
- there is no 1 Environment, only. There must be 2, at least (as the opposite one), since there is Nothing that exists as One.
What/Who is the God ?
No clue. Some assumptions, only.

#1, 2, 4
I think that Block Universe Theory makes quite logical sense.

I believe that exactly the Time, is the Environment we live-in.
(Dimensions are the results of Mankind's perceptions.
Distances along measurements are being created by ourselves, in order to systematize and set the Environment in a logical way that suits Mankind.
The Environment's additional elements are set to fill that Environment in/up, in order Mankind to make progress.)

There is neither "Past" nor "Future". "Presence" only, instead.
We - Mankind, are both :
- Travellers in Time
- Prisoners of Time
That is the reason we can Not break the Time, since we Live-in that Time. Otherwise, we would enter a different Environment.

"Speed of Light" and the "Light" (itself) are the factors Mankind put on its shoulders for unknown-to-me reason, except for measures, scales, comparison chart, ect.
Both factors limit Mankind's capabilities.

Here, it is my view on Time, Environment, Travel, Dimension, ect.
Imagine a huge ball, filled with a substance that allows Mankind to function.
We just live in that ball.
That ball is : the Environment
That substance is : the Time.
Trees, rivers, mountains, animals, ect. : additional elements within that Environment
The task : Mankind - as species, to make progress.
Purpose ? No idea.
A sort of big experimental garden.
Who rules over that ball ? Not me :-)

Example :
- an object #1 to reach Alfa Centauri, travelling with a speed of light
- an object #2 to reach Alfa Centauri, travelling with a speed of light X 2
Both objects reach Alfa Centauri, but object #2 is going to arrive earlier
Does it mean object #2's time (it reaches Alfa Centauri is going to be taken as "the Past Time" or "the Future Time" ?
No.
Both timings are equal, and both objects reach Alfa Centauri, But :
- object #2 finds itself in "the Past Time", in comparison to object #1, and Only (!)
That comparison chart is a "killer". Eliminate that chart, and one finds no time factor at all.
Therefore, neither "the Past" nor "the Future" exist, except for memory that stores this particular event.

"The Presence Time" works like a Scanner, that we have a chance to passively observe, only. We have neither capabilities to re-scan events that passed, nor those ones that will come. It is the result of Mankind's technological and scientific limitations, as of today.
"The Presence" within the Environment (we live-in) is a sort of configuration, that exists for that particular moment, Only (!)

We have no means to Re-scan that particular configuration, in order to go back in "the Past". It is quite similar to refreshing a monitor. Once refreshed, it is gone (till the next refreshing procedure), while it happens with a frequency of 85Hz/s.
However, I believe that we would develope new technologies that allow Mankind to re-scan the original configuration(s), that means traveling in "the Past". It would be a paradise for historians, and some devilish etempt for some "wackos" :-)

What about "the Future" ?
There is no "the Future". We create "the Future" in "the Presence".
What about UFO (that comes from some futuristic times) ?
They are just lucky f... :-) , that dwell some planets located closer to the center of BigBang, so they have had much greater period of time to "enlist" within the Environment, in comparison to Us - Earthlinks.
But, We - Mankind are so talented, that we are going show them "some tricks" (some time later) they would never forget (if they survive it) :-)

[Athena]

Quote by: Rainbow #2 I disagree with Augustine. Since the God has created the Environment the Man dwells within, The God is the Time as well. A note aside : - the God not necessarily resides within the same Environment, all the time. It has a control over that, though. - there is no 1 Environment, only. There must be 2, at least (as the opposite one), since there is Nothing that exists as One. What/Who is the God ? No clue. Some assumptions, only. #1, 2, 4 I think that Block Universe Theory makes quite logical sense. I believe that exactly the Time, is the Environment we live-in. (Dimensions are the results of Mankind's perceptions. Distances along measurements are being created by ourselves, in order to systematize and set the Environment in a logical way that suits Mankind. The Environment's additional elements are set to fill that Environment in/up, in order Mankind to make progress.) There is neither "Past" nor "Future". "Presence" only, instead. We - Mankind, are both : - Travellers in Time - Prisoners of Time That is the reason we can Not break the Time, since we Live-in that Time. Otherwise, we would enter a different Environment. "Speed of Light" and the "Light" (itself) are the factors Mankind put on its shoulders for unknown-to-me reason, except for measures, scales, comparison chart, ect. Both factors limit Mankind's capabilities. Here, it is my view on Time, Environment, Travel, Dimension, ect. Imagine a huge ball, filled with a substance that allows Mankind to function. We just live in that ball. That ball is : the Environment That substance is : the Time. Trees, rivers, mountains, animals, ect. : additional elements within that Environment The task : Mankind - as species, to make progress. Purpose ? No idea. A sort of big experimental garden. Who rules over that ball ? Not me :-) Example : - an object #1 to reach Alfa Centauri, travelling with a speed of light - an object #2 to reach Alfa Centauri, travelling with a speed of light X 2 Both objects reach Alfa Centauri, but object #2 is going to arrive earlier Does it mean object #2's time (it reaches Alfa Centauri is going to be taken as "the Past Time" or "the Future Time" ? No. Both timings are equal, and both objects reach Alfa Centauri, But : - object #2 finds itself in "the Past Time", in comparison to object #1, and Only (!) That comparison chart is a "killer". Eliminate that chart, and one finds no time factor at all. Therefore, neither "the Past" nor "the Future" exist, except for memory that stores this particular event. "The Presence Time" works like a Scanner, that we have a chance to passively observe, only. We have neither capabilities to re-scan events that passed, nor those ones that will come. It is the result of Mankind's technological and scientific limitations, as of today. "The Presence" within the Environment (we live-in) is a sort of configuration, that exists for that particular moment, Only (!) We have no means to Re-scan that particular configuration, in order to go back in "the Past". It is quite similar to refreshing a monitor. Once refreshed, it is gone (till the next refreshing procedure), while it happens with a frequency of 85Hz/s. However, I believe that we would develope new technologies that allow Mankind to re-scan the original configuration(s), that means traveling in "the Past". It would be a paradise for historians, and some devilish etempt for some "wackos" :-) What about "the Future" ? There is no "the Future". We create "the Future" in "the Presence". What about UFO (that comes from some futuristic times) ? They are just lucky f... :-) , that dwell some planets located closer to the center of BigBang, so they have had much greater period of time to "enlist" within the Environment, in comparison to Us - Earthlinks. But, We - Mankind are so talented, that we are going show them "some tricks" (some time later) they would never forget (if they survive it) :-)

If nothing exist without an opposit, perhaps no time is beyond the end of the universe. Within the universe can there be no time?

[Athena]

Time is spoken of as a substance, but is it a substance or an abstract thought without substance?

Possibly time and light energy are one and the same thing? That would give time particle reality or substance. So if light energy didn't exist neither would time.

But, also, if there is block time, and time is like a capsul we travel in, what is outside the block?

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Athena If nothing exist without an opposit, perhaps no time is beyond the end of the universe. Within the universe can there be no time? Time is spoken of as a substance, but is it a substance or an abstract thought without substance? Possibly time and light energy are one and the same thing? That would give time particle reality or substance. So if light energy didn't exist neither would time. But, also, if there is block time, and time is like a capsul we travel in, what is outside the block?

#1
The Time is a crucial factor within the Environment. No time, no activity, no life, no existance, no environment, ect. Therefore, the Time must exist, regardless of an Environment. By the Environment I mean the space that is commonly understood as the Universe.

#2
It is both : substance and abstract.
We have ability to perceive 3-D world. We have no idea on the world beyond 3-D.

The Light has not much in common with the Time, except for measurement purposes, scales, ect. We have created and used the Light as a factor (aside of the Light as a physical occurrance, itself). We label the Light as a source of energy, especially since every single Being is a source of energy that Environment would not exist without.
That very same Light does not appear without the Time existance. It would never manifest its presence, at all.

I do not know how to measure, observe, ect. and/or conduct any research on the Time.
The most known device - developed by Mankind - is a clock. It does not necessarily mean that a clock is a proper or correct tool to define, measure, ect. the Time.

I think that the Time is a sort of our Environment's "Black Hole", that consumes part of every single Being's energy, that Being needs to release in order to exist.
That is the reason for "aging", traveling some distances, ect. and applies to all the elements within that Environment.

Examples (only !) :
- breathing
A body needs a specific ammount of time to take some air in, and exhaust it out.
- traveling
A person needs to travel specific ammount of time, to reach a specified location.

In both occasions, particular activity manifested themselves into a particular period of Time, that existed into that particular configuration, created into that particular Environment, and elapsed with no means to be re-configured, re-appeared, ect once again.
Under these particular conditions, those particular situations took place.

That is quite similar to scanning a film.
Applying today's technology, we are capable of manipulating a film, and go back frame-by-frame. By doing it, we can re-call all those events stored on that film.
However, we have no technological and/or scientific means to apply that "technique" to the Time, as of today.

#3
That is not quite correct.
That "capsule" - you refer to - is that Environment.
Since that Environment is the world #1, then there must be the world #2 as an opposition.
I have no clue on the world #2, except for rare extreme experiences some people went through, guess, ect.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Time passes at the same rate regardless of how fast you're going. Proof: say you're 3x10^8 meters away from point B. You go exactly the speed of light. It takes you 1 second to get to point B.

Time is relative. Special theory of relativity?

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Time is relative. Special theory of relativity?

I just showed you that time passes at a constant rate in the universe:

A ship traveling the speed of light takes 1 second to travel 3X10^8 meters.


What about relativity, now?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 I just showed you that time passes at a constant rate in the universe: A ship traveling the speed of light takes 1 second to travel 3X10^8 meters. What about relativity, now?

You don't know that time passes at a constant rate everywhere in the universe.. sorry.. ^^

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 I just showed you that time passes at a constant rate in the universe: A ship traveling the speed of light takes 1 second to travel 3X10^8 meters. What about relativity, now?

What is the rate of time then? Constants require measurements.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer You don't know that time passes at a constant rate everywhere in the universe..

There is no where in the universe where it takes more or less time than a second for a ship to travel 3x10^8 m if it's going c.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 What is the rate of time then? Constants require measurements.

There is no rate of time.

There is time it took to travel = 1 s.

There is the distance traveled = 3x10^8 m.


The only rate involved would be velocity = 3x10^ m/s.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: Technosoul This happened a few weeks ago. I woke up from a dream and was able to recall it. The images were of dogs running in a neighbors front door and my cat was near the door, in this dream I said "stupid cat, don't trust those dogs". In the next instant the dream showed an image of my call laying lifeless on the ground covered in mud and blood. Two days later my cat was attacked during the night by a dog, and died bleeding from the injury, and looked just like the images in the dream of a few nights before.

Holy crap, that sucks. And it's weird, because I saw a cat get killed by a dog the other day.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 What is the rate of time then? Constants require measurements.

lol... ok, sure. Here's the rate:

1 second of time per second

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Do you think the Block Universe Theory makes sense? Does anyone else have any theories of their own on the nature of time?

No. It's not a theory. Theories can be disproven. This is meaningless philosophical claptrap.

We don't need a "theory" to describe the nature of time. As tman says, time is the label we give to our perception that things in the universe change.

This is like coming up with a theory of the nature of quiche.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Block time has implications for the concept of free will, in that it proposes that future events are as immutably fixed and impossible to change as past events (see determinism). This will prove less troublesome if true that time behaves like another dimension of space. It's well-understood that there is no such thing as a ubiquitous present moment - a "now" - on, say, a galactic scale; similar arguments would show that the concept of block time is meaningful over only short "distances" of time. Also, the question about free will can be sidestepped by dropping the unwarranted assumption that each person's conscious experience is merely an epiphenomenon of matter and hence totally isolated from all others. As Jacques Barzun noted in From Dawn to Decadence: 500 Years of Western Cultural Life, the human will would in fact be "distributed among all the living." Block time makes two assumptions, which are separable. One is that time is a full-fledged real dimension. The other is immutability. The latter is not a necessary consequence of the first. If random changes are possible, the result may be indistinguishable from the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.

This maybe a fatal flaw in Block Time, because not only are random events possible, but fractal chaotic patterns of non-linear events guarentees that there will be randomness of events in time. This randomness has a distinctive pattern that is recognizable, but it would be impossible for the occurance of all events to be immutable or deterministic.

Augustine of Hippo wrote that God is outside of time—that time exists only within the created universe. Many theologians (especially Catholics) agree. On this view, God would perceive something like block time, while time might appear differently to us finite beings.[/b] Do you think the Block Universe Theory makes sense? Does anyone else have any theories of their own on the nature of time?

Yes and no. It has possibilities, but as stated it does not work. I do not accept Augustine's, Roman Church beliefs, or other traditional Christian presuppositions that 'Time necessarily exists only within the created universe.

[tman_ndsu08]

Well, someone who at least sounds smart has given a smart sounding answer.


Maybe that will be enough for chainer.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 There is no where in the universe where it takes more or less time than a second for a ship to travel 3x10^8 m if it's going c.

Once again.. you don't know that. To say you know how time and speed will react on every corner of the universe is unreasonable and quite naive on your part. You remind of past stubborn scholars that denied the earth was round simply because that is what they read, or were taught. You're hanging on to your text book explanations with such stubborness it's sickening. You simply DO NOT KNOW, and neither do I. I'm ok with you using that ship travelling crap as an argument, I just would like to point out you couldn't possibley know how the rate of time, the speed, velocity, or anything of the sort will react in every single point in the universe. It's simply ridiculous.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman No. It's not a theory. Theories can be disproven. This is meaningless philosophical claptrap. We don't need a "theory" to describe the nature of time. As tman says, time is the label we give to our perception that things in the universe change. This is like coming up with a theory of the nature of quiche.

You have one F'd up definition of what a theory is.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: shunyadragon This maybe a fatal flaw in Block Time, because not only are random events possible, but fractal chaotic patterns of non-linear events guarentees that there will be randomness of events in time. This randomness has a distinctive pattern that is recognizable, but it would be impossible for the occurance of all events to be immutable or deterministic.

You're going to have to explain that one, kiddo. There are just as many positions that don't believe in randomness at all. Fractal chaotic patterns are no reason to conclude there is true randomness in the world. Every so-called "random" "chaotic" event may be caused by something less "random" that we simply don't know of. As you said, these events you speak of are still happening in a pattern. It suggests things like reason and cause/effect. Such things suggest that there is nothing random about it. There is order beneath the veil of chaos our ignorance places over complicated events.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Well, someone who at least sounds smart has given a smart sounding answer. Maybe that will be enough for chainer.

That's cute. Fortunatley (escpecially for you) I don't judge other's ideas as less or more intelligent. I simply judge them as "different". You should learn to do the same.

And no, I have not seen any argument that has been "enough" for me.