IS the loss of spirituality a progression, or regression of man?

[Mr.Vicchio]

I ask this in all seriousness, putting aside my own beliefs, and yours, here's the question:

There is a general sense of loss of spirituality in the world, some countries it's more prevalent then others, but that's not the point, that there is this movement away from religion, and all things religious, is man really progressing or is it something else?

I was thinking about this today, and I hoenstly don't know. On one hand, I can see the arguement of "It's our destiny, it our life, where is this God and why should we listen to him?"

I can understand the issue, after all, we can't hear, see, detect God in any tangible way. So is he really there?

It begs the question though, if there is a God and people turn away from him, whose fault?

I blame the larger Churches, that have become mroe power/money systems, and the organized religions as a whole. "If you don't believe what WE believe, you shall burn in the firey pitts of HELL!" right. I have not, nor will I ever buy that line of thought. If X religion is so right, and our souls would really rot in hell for not believing them, don't you think God would have spent a bit more effort makng sure we knw that was the gig? Yeah, me too.

In the end though, it's hard to even bother with religion in some ways because there are 5,000 different flavors of "Believe in US and YOU will be a chosen one" It's crap. Crap crap crap. But IMHO that doesn't mean there isn't a God.

[another day]

It's a progression. Humans are becoming more reasonable and rational. We are giving up the worthless false hope of religion in favor of actually working our problems out ourselves. We are taking responsibility for our problems rather then just saying "god did it, let god decide etc" And your right, religion is totally worthless now because there are so many flavors of it, and now with globalization, everyone knows the other religions rather then being more isolated. It makes it seem like crap. And you say "but there could still be a god" and you could be right, but I think you need to come to terms with the fact that he's not some personalized ego-centric narcissist who would require one of his likely meaningless billions of creations (us) to worship him, especially since people love to do it in such demeaning ways and use him as leverage against other people. "If there is a god, he must be quite sick of being called down on both sides of an argument" is a great quote.

IMO, its a definite progression. We no longer have to rely on the imaginary crutch of god and can actually find workable ways around our difficulties. Unfortunatly, not everyone is turning away from religion, and what do we have in those cases? Madmen suicide bombing terrorists in the middle east, religious zealot warlords in the whitehouse, an islamic fundamentalist nation (iran) who'd like nothing better then to destroy the entire countries of Israel and America etc. The one region that is not giving up its strong religious beliefs, the middle east is also a total shithole full of degradation, hate, violence, and cruelty. The entire base of conflict in the world today is, surprise surprise, religion.

And religion remains as it always has been, nothing but a snake under a rose, constantly masquering under the guise of love and tolerance, while outwardly projecting the total opposite on society through it's skewed followers.

[Mr.Vicchio]

The real progression in my mind would be for people to accept that there is a God, but liek you said, it makes no sense that he would put us here to be slaves to a church. There is more to it then that.


We can work things out and still believe in God.

IMHO

[another day]

How would that be progression when people have been accepting god blindly since we were shitting in caves and wearing loincloths? What exactly is progressive about believing in god? How would it be progress us as a species? We've been doing it for thousands of years and it does nothing but pit people against each other and create deluded maniacs with fanatical agendas about life.

[Mr.Vicchio]

I said it was my opinion. There is faith in God without being a turd over ya know.

You judge the whole God bit on the Bad examples... I understand that too feeds into the anti-God mentality I am just not sure it's a good thing. From one extreme to the other?

[tman_ndsu08]

The churches of the world are nothing more to me than governments.

They try to tell people how to live.


If God exists, he made the universe and that's it. He doesn't micromanage us. What the hell difference would it make to him what we do with our time?

[Mr.Vicchio]

He does care, he does want us to live good lives, but I think the Churches of the world have taken God and used him as a tool for thier own ends. That's why I reject most "churches" as a whole.

[Jack]

I see a distinction between spirituality and religiosity. Spirituality is often considered a religious concept, perhaps due to the common belief that "spirit" refers only to a supernatural thing. It need not.

When I think of spirituality, I think of all those things that science can't quantify, like love, compassion, empathy, peace.

If religious fervor is indeed on the wane, good. Perhaps it will free us to realize true spirituality in ourselves and not consider ourselves "sinful" or unworthy. Perhaps we'll finally see that true spirituality comes from within, not from a supernatural, other-worldly source. We'll finally be taking responsibility for ourselves.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio he does want us to live good lives

What is a good life?

[Technosoul]

Spirituality was once what we now call paganism, it was about feeling the presence of nature in a kind of spirtual manner, and ideas that nature is spirit or full of spirits that humans can communicate with though our feelings and even by rituals. Also, spiritualism was this love of life which was felt as a joy - and as wonderment.

Most people have moved away from that and we now have religions, governments, science, and philosophy. Poets are not as popular and facts are in bigger demand.

But was it better to move out of the "garden" and into a nice house with air conditioning and other comfortable things? Most would say hell yes. Who really wants to go back and live like a cave man?

But we still need that feeling of joy that being spiritual can provide, and that sense of harmony and security of knowing our environment provided (few unexpected events).

Religion offered some simular effects, but nature was real and practical also, not toally a faith dominated concept. You can see nature first hand but you cannot see God.

But we can watch movies, hear all kinds of music, read books, and so forth which offers us an escape from the downsides of our progressive momentum - out of the sticks and into modern cities and such. It might be that the reduction in attraction for religion is due to the many other sources of entertainment that is obtainable nowadays ( which resulted from techology mostly developed during only the past 50 to 70 years - what amounts to only one generation of progress).

Well, some thoughts anyway

[gallo]

So what does "spirituality" mean? What does "progression" mean? What does "regression" mean? Most of all, why are your comments relevant to any of the above questions?

[underbear1]

I see no loss in spirituality, it may be practiced outside of religious institutions which are declining globally, I believe because of most religions rigidly clinging to the notion .....they are the ONE AND ONLY TRUE PATH.Very few can stomach that notion anymore, it's nonsense believing 2/3rds of the planet's population, which aren't in your denomination, are wrong!

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I ask this in all seriousness, putting aside my own beliefs, and yours, here's the question: There is a general sense of loss of spirituality in the world, some countries it's more prevalent then others, but that's not the point, that there is this movement away from religion, and all things religious, is man really progressing or is it something else? I was thinking about this today, and I hoenstly don't know. On one hand, I can see the arguement of "It's our destiny, it our life, where is this God and why should we listen to him?" I can understand the issue, after all, we can't hear, see, detect God in any tangible way. So is he really there? It begs the question though, if there is a God and people turn away from him, whose fault? I blame the larger Churches, that have become mroe power/money systems, and the organized religions as a whole. "If you don't believe what WE believe, you shall burn in the firey pitts of HELL!" right. I have not, nor will I ever buy that line of thought. If X religion is so right, and our souls would really rot in hell for not believing them, don't you think God would have spent a bit more effort makng sure we knw that was the gig? Yeah, me too. In the end though, it's hard to even bother with religion in some ways because there are 5,000 different flavors of "Believe in US and YOU will be a chosen one" It's crap. Crap crap crap. But IMHO that doesn't mean there isn't a God.

you bring up some very good points here. personally, there are only a few doctrines a person MUST believe to understand by the rules set forth in the Bible. according to it, all a person MUST know is that A.) Salvation is by grace and through faith(For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.); B.) salvation is a result of Jesus's death on the cross atoning our sins and ressurection to bring us to God (For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.); C.) salvation comes through both confession and belief. (For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation; D.)salvation is permanent (the story of the prodigal son, and this passage: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.); and E.) that salvation is not a reason to sin for the rest of our life just because we are saved (What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?)



outside of that, it is up to interpretation. some of it nearly every denomination that belives the above will agree on, some, not so much. some things aren't directly covered in the Bible, such as the type of music you listen to and the way you encourage fellow believers. for those, it is a Romans 14 issue. if a certain thing causes another Christian to stumble, avoid it while around them if it is not covered in the Bible. the reason for the division of all these denominations is because of a lack of ability to follow the simple rule in that chapter, which tells us, if the person doesn't like it, don't do it. that is relationship fixer 101. if you don't do something that another person doesn't appreciate, what will happen? they will grow to respect you more. how much more unity would the world see in the church if they just followed this simple rule?

the love of Jesus, it is something wonderful. it is the most pure, unselfish, perfect love that we will ever know. it comes straight from the heart of God Himself. it's a love that doesn't hold grudges or keep score. a love that's unconditional, ever-faithful and never ending. it's amazing, that in all of God's creation, we would be the greatest objects of His love. we have done nothing to deserve this love, nor can we do anything to be worthy of it. yes, the love of Jesus IS something wonderful.
God created us different from all other creatures. He gave us the capacity to know Him, and to have a personal, intimate relationship with Him, and to have fellowship with Him. He formed us in His own divine image, an image with freedom of will and power of choice. He has loved us from the very beginning. Adam and Eve lived and walked with God in Paradise, a place to perfect for us to comprehend, until the day they chose to disregard their Creator's ever-protecting love. what began there, in the Garden of Eden, would become the great dilemma for every soul. because of Adam's sin, every one of us suffers the consequence of being seperated from God. through the disobedience and rebellion of the first man, sin was passed down to all of us. But God, rich in mercy and love, designed a plan that would restore our love relationship, cleanse us from all our sin, and ultimately, take us back to paradise. though we may never completely understand, His requirement for cleansing the sin of man, was the shedding of the blood of a spotless lamb. for hundreds of years, an animal sacrifice would be offered for the atonement of sin. these offerings were only temporary. but God's love provided His own Lamb, as a permanent, perfect, final sacrifice for all sin, for ALL men, for all time.

one day, in the city of Jerusalem a father sadly looked in the eyes of his children he said, "the time for sacrifice has come our sins must be covered, our wrongs must be atoned." the younger one said, "I don't understand why our sins can't be forgiven without the killing of my lamb." the father took the young child by the hand and said, "there will come a day when the Lion of Judah will become the Lamb of God and take our sins away there will come a day no more sacrifices needed atonement is completed, oh my child, there will come a day" so many years so many lambs were offered up. but all the blood that was spilled could never fill that bitter cup. until one spotless Lamb in the form of man gave his life on calvary His was the only blood that could ever set man free. for His blood was not just blood of another spotless lamb but His blood was precious blood, His blood was precious blood. blood shed for a sin debt only Jesus could pay. God raised the ransom Jesus paid it on the cross where the purest of Lambs was slain for the lost. Blood shed for a sin debt only Jesus could pay. God raised the ransom His blood paid the ransom no more sacrifices needed atonement is completed for Jesus gave His precious blood on crucifixion day.

[phoenix_fire]

What I see happening is that humans are becoming more arrogant. They don't want a god over their destiny: they want to be gods over their own destinies. Faith is out of fashion because it doesn't fuel our narcissism enough. Bowing down would cramp one's style. People take what they want out of life and everyone else can just go to Hell for all I care. Marriages are made and broken because people consistently seek out the "perfect" mate, and yet take not one iota of time to try to make themselves a better mate in turn. People try to make as much money as humanly possible so that they can say that they are masters of their own fates. They seek out miracle pills that will prolong their lives as they shake their fists at death. Futile. That's all there is to these people's lives: futility. And the world is worse off for them.

[another day]

"What I see happening is that humans are becoming more arrogant. They don't want a god over their destiny: they want to be gods over their own destinies. Faith is out of fashion because it doesn't fuel our narcissism enough. Bowing down would cramp one's style. People take what they want out of life and everyone else can just go to Hell for all I care. Marriages are made and broken because people consistently seek out the "perfect" mate, and yet take not one iota of time to try to make themselves a better mate in turn. People try to make as much money as humanly possible so that they can say that they are masters of their own fates. They seek out miracle pills that will prolong their lives as they shake their fists at death. Futile. That's all there is to these people's lives: futility. And the world is worse off for them."

Perhaps..

But can you really blame lack of religion for this? Was the world a better place when religion reigned supreme?

I think it's time we stop blaming all sorts of things and realize that humans are destined for conflict forvever...it's in our nature and is something that we cannot surpass. Except,. maybe evolution will solve it. And I doubt we will live long enough for that to happen.

[Amuse]

Quote by: Isherwood I see a distinction between spirituality and religiosity. Spirituality is often considered a religious concept, perhaps due to the common belief that "spirit" refers only to a supernatural thing. It need not. When I think of spirituality, I think of all those things that science can't quantify, like love, compassion, empathy, peace. If religious fervor is indeed on the wane, good. Perhaps it will free us to realize true spirituality in ourselves and not consider ourselves "sinful" or unworthy. Perhaps we'll finally see that true spirituality comes from within, not from a supernatural, other-worldly source. We'll finally be taking responsibility for ourselves.

Thank you. My sentiments exactly.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Well, my big issue is, one extreme, be it full on whatever religion has proven over and over to be not so great an idea. Inquisition, Islamic Terror..... just for example. But on the flip side, in real world examples of completel lack of religion, we have seen some pretty nasty things too. USSR, China, NK and Cuba for example.

It's the extreme's that bother me, and thats the gist of the question, is a tottal abondonment of God any better then a full slave state to him?


I say, no.

[Osborn F Enready]

The loss of religion, is a POSITIVE and NECESSARY evolution of man.

Religious Dogma is one of the biggest "seperators" of mankind, second in modern times only to nationalism.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: another day "What I see happening is that humans are becoming more arrogant. They don't want a god over their destiny: they want to be gods over their own destinies. Faith is out of fashion because it doesn't fuel our narcissism enough. Bowing down would cramp one's style. People take what they want out of life and everyone else can just go to Hell for all I care. Marriages are made and broken because people consistently seek out the "perfect" mate, and yet take not one iota of time to try to make themselves a better mate in turn. People try to make as much money as humanly possible so that they can say that they are masters of their own fates. They seek out miracle pills that will prolong their lives as they shake their fists at death. Futile. That's all there is to these people's lives: futility. And the world is worse off for them." Perhaps.. But can you really blame lack of religion for this? Was the world a better place when religion reigned supreme? I think it's time we stop blaming all sorts of things and realize that humans are destined for conflict forvever...it's in our nature and is something that we cannot surpass. Except,. maybe evolution will solve it. And I doubt we will live long enough for that to happen.

Evolution is the new religion of the godless. Think about it. It requires the faith that there is some mostly benevolent force behind our development and that we are being made better with time. Evolution will NOT solve all our problems, and while you're waiting around for someone to start growing another appendage, people are starving and dying in wars and murdering each other for no good reason. Others live in misery because they have convinced themselves that they should have something that they will never be able to obtain. Evolution isn't going to fix these problems. I do know, however, that God does. The Bible says to be content wherever you are, to love others more than yourself, to take care of the poor and orphaned and to realize that we are not supreme and there is something more important than our own banal selfishness.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: dthmstr254 Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I ask this in all seriousness, putting aside my own beliefs, and yours, here's the question: There is a general sense of loss of spirituality in the world, some countries it's more prevalent then others, but that's not the point, that there is this movement away from religion, and all things religious, is man really progressing or is it something else? I was thinking about this today, and I hoenstly don't know. On one hand, I can see the arguement of "It's our destiny, it our life, where is this God and why should we listen to him?" I can understand the issue, after all, we can't hear, see, detect God in any tangible way. So is he really there? It begs the question though, if there is a God and people turn away from him, whose fault? I blame the larger Churches, that have become mroe power/money systems, and the organized religions as a whole. "If you don't believe what WE believe, you shall burn in the firey pitts of HELL!" right. I have not, nor will I ever buy that line of thought. If X religion is so right, and our souls would really rot in hell for not believing them, don't you think God would have spent a bit more effort makng sure we knw that was the gig? Yeah, me too. In the end though, it's hard to even bother with religion in some ways because there are 5,000 different flavors of "Believe in US and YOU will be a chosen one" It's crap. Crap crap crap. But IMHO that doesn't mean there isn't a God. you bring up some very good points here. personally, there are only a few doctrines a person MUST believe to understand by the rules set forth in the Bible. according to it, all a person MUST know is that A.) Salvation is by grace and through faith(For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.); B.) salvation is a result of Jesus's death on the cross atoning our sins and ressurection to bring us to God (For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.); C.) salvation comes through both confession and belief. (For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation; D.)salvation is permanent (the story of the prodigal son, and this passage: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.); and E.) that salvation is not a reason to sin for the rest of our life just because we are saved (What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?) outside of that, it is up to interpretation. some of it nearly every denomination that belives the above will agree on, some, not so much. some things aren't directly covered in the Bible, such as the type of music you listen to and the way you encourage fellow believers. for those, it is a Romans 14 issue. if a certain thing causes another Christian to stumble, avoid it while around them if it is not covered in the Bible. the reason for the division of all these denominations is because of a lack of ability to follow the simple rule in that chapter, which tells us, if the person doesn't like it, don't do it. that is relationship fixer 101. if you don't do something that another person doesn't appreciate, what will happen? they will grow to respect you more. how much more unity would the world see in the church if they just followed this simple rule? the love of Jesus, it is something wonderful. it is the most pure, unselfish, perfect love that we will ever know. it comes straight from the heart of God Himself. it's a love that doesn't hold grudges or keep score. a love that's unconditional, ever-faithful and never ending. it's amazing, that in all of God's creation, we would be the greatest objects of His love. we have done nothing to deserve this love, nor can we do anything to be worthy of it. yes, the love of Jesus IS something wonderful. God created us different from all other creatures. He gave us the capacity to know Him, and to have a personal, intimate relationship with Him, and to have fellowship with Him. He formed us in His own divine image, an image with freedom of will and power of choice. He has loved us from the very beginning. Adam and Eve lived and walked with God in Paradise, a place to perfect for us to comprehend, until the day they chose to disregard their Creator's ever-protecting love. what began there, in the Garden of Eden, would become the great dilemma for every soul. because of Adam's sin, every one of us suffers the consequence of being seperated from God. through the disobedience and rebellion of the first man, sin was passed down to all of us. But God, rich in mercy and love, designed a plan that would restore our love relationship, cleanse us from all our sin, and ultimately, take us back to paradise. though we may never completely understand, His requirement for cleansing the sin of man, was the shedding of the blood of a spotless lamb. for hundreds of years, an animal sacrifice would be offered for the atonement of sin. these offerings were only temporary. but God's love provided His own Lamb, as a permanent, perfect, final sacrifice for all sin, for ALL men, for all time. one day, in the city of Jerusalem a father sadly looked in the eyes of his children he said, "the time for sacrifice has come our sins must be covered, our wrongs must be atoned." the younger one said, "I don't understand why our sins can't be forgiven without the killing of my lamb." the father took the young child by the hand and said, "there will come a day when the Lion of Judah will become the Lamb of God and take our sins away there will come a day no more sacrifices needed atonement is completed, oh my child, there will come a day" so many years so many lambs were offered up. but all the blood that was spilled could never fill that bitter cup. until one spotless Lamb in the form of man gave his life on calvary His was the only blood that could ever set man free. for His blood was not just blood of another spotless lamb but His blood was precious blood, His blood was precious blood. blood shed for a sin debt only Jesus could pay. God raised the ransom Jesus paid it on the cross where the purest of Lambs was slain for the lost. Blood shed for a sin debt only Jesus could pay. God raised the ransom His blood paid the ransom no more sacrifices needed atonement is completed for Jesus gave His precious blood on crucifixion day.

So Jesus died to save all the little lambs and other animals being used for sacrafices? That was great for all the sheep, goats, and oxes. No longer would the "escape goats" be taken to the fire as a burnt offering.

Now people can no longer put their sin upon the animals and kill the animals to get rid of their sins and imprefections - now you are personaly responsibe for what you say, do, and think.

Taking a pure virgin and offering her to the fires of the volcanno was already tried as a religious ritural and now that practice is also obsolete.

So nowadays people dump all their imperfect feelings onto their Shrink. Or they call a best friend and unload and the friend comforts them offers them the justification they need to feel alright again.

And then can buy a punching bag at the sporting goods store and take out all their anger and other negitives on the bag. Or kick a tin can down the street.

Now what about all those guilts, the shame, and so forth. Such emotions are like nuclear waste, where can we dump it and be rid of the garbage once and for all? And why produce more and more by not using our intelligent understanding as a tool of prevention?

And the father told his kid, don't worry, someday science will send us the technology to free us from all our nuclear waste, but until then lets bury it under that mountain. The sins of energy.

And if we generate energy by our emotional reactions - the energy of anger, and so forth, where can we bury it, the unspent energy?

For the unspent energy of anger and other negitives is distructive and dangerous, just like extra nuclear waste. If we got no place to dump it then the negitive energy might attack one of our internal organs, or cause us grave health problems, or metal problems. With a vengence.

Pick up your bed and walk it off, torture your self by running for a few miles. Let off steam at a rehab center. Take drugs and forget. We have so many solutions and yet they are not enough to set us free. Oh understanding, oh Wisdom, why have you foresaken us?

Why has the answer to the riddel forsaken us? Don't worry kid, someday we that know not what we do or why we do it will know, when God sends us back our "knowing abilty", but for now kid, take your pet lamb and lets "burn the hell out of it".