IS the loss of spirituality a progression, or regression of man?

[Matt W]

Mr. V - return to the topic. You have an issue with Osborn, take it to PM. Last time. :rolleyes:

[Athena]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I ask this in all seriousness, putting aside my own beliefs, and yours, here's the question: There is a general sense of loss of spirituality in the world, some countries it's more prevalent then others, but that's not the point, that there is this movement away from religion, and all things religious, is man really progressing or is it something else? I was thinking about this today, and I hoenstly don't know. On one hand, I can see the arguement of "It's our destiny, it our life, where is this God and why should we listen to him?" I can understand the issue, after all, we can't hear, see, detect God in any tangible way. So is he really there? It begs the question though, if there is a God and people turn away from him, whose fault? I blame the larger Churches, that have become mroe power/money systems, and the organized religions as a whole. "If you don't believe what WE believe, you shall burn in the firey pitts of HELL!" right. I have not, nor will I ever buy that line of thought. If X religion is so right, and our souls would really rot in hell for not believing them, don't you think God would have spent a bit more effort makng sure we knw that was the gig? Yeah, me too. In the end though, it's hard to even bother with religion in some ways because there are 5,000 different flavors of "Believe in US and YOU will be a chosen one" It's crap. Crap crap crap. But IMHO that doesn't mean there isn't a God.

Christianity had a problem with spirituality from the beginning. In Egyptian theology, there is a trinity of the soul. Part of our soul is always with the creator, part dies with the body, and part is judged after death. This part may go to the good life after death or may not, depending on the person's worthness, goodness of heart. Christianity makes this trinity of spirit external. There is the external God, the external holy ghost and son.

Spirituality once recognized the spirit in everything, the rock, the water, the animal, etc, and quantum physics is returning to this. Christianity opposed this sense of spirituality and called it superstitution, and then gave use supernatural spirituality of an external God, and realms of angels and demons. Like the definition of supernatural is supernatural powers. What kind of sense is it to base a religion on supernatural powers, and say this is the truth, and believing there is spirit in everything, is superstitution? Huh? :eek: Truly a person has to be taught how this belief system works, because unless one learns to think like a Christian, what they say makes no sense.

I believe I am a very spiritual person. I know I am very passionate about this. I really dislike it when a Christians tells me I don't have a God or that God is his/her God and not my God. How can this be? God is monad. Out of the monad comes everything. There may be angels and demons but my heart is with the spirits of earth. I would say I am pagan, except I favor reason, and that is not a pagan trait by the Greek definition of pagan. Okay, I am a helenized pagan. :) However, reason without heart is not to recognize spiritual reality. Passion is of the heart. When Christians stop denying us our sense of God and morality, they will see the spirituality they are not seeing now.

Heck, when all religious people stop their "I have the truth and am speical to God and you don't know the truth, and therefore, aren't acceptable to MY God", thinking and behavior, there will be a huge global improvement.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready This is why I think the LOSS of religion (or nationally recognized spirituality) is a PROGRESS for mankind. Witness this debate.

you mean the Cold War, the Cuban Missile Crisis and the nuclear crisis with Korea (all results of the LOSS of religion in their prospective parts of the world) are good? :rolleyes:

[Athena]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I was just wondering...I wanted to know if you were being totally objective or if it was a general diss of Christians. (I don't like blanket statements either). I don't know that I would call myself addicted as that brings up some very negative connotations, but I'm pretty obsessive about what I believe. I think I come about it honestly.

Jews, Christians and Muslims have been very obsessive about what they believe, and when this happens problems come up. Some of us are deeply troubled by the hatred, discrimination, violence and wars spinning of religious obsession. These are different understandings of God and people should not be fighting over them. All their religions agree about treating others as one wishes to be treated. Maybe if they practiced their religion, and kept their months shut instead talking as they have a special track to God, the passion would have a good, instead of a negative, result.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Athena Jews, Christians and Muslims have been very obsessive about what they believe, and when this happens problems come up. Some of us are deeply troubled by the hatred, discrimination, violence and wars spinning of religious obsession. These are different understandings of God and people should not be fighting over them. All their religions agree about treating others as one wishes to be treated. Maybe if they practiced their religion, and kept their months shut instead talking as they have a special track to God, the passion would have a good, instead of a negative, result.

not exactly, Islam preaches that if you don't believe what they believe, your life is forfeit.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Athena Jews, Christians and Muslims have been very obsessive about what they believe, and when this happens problems come up. Some of us are deeply troubled by the hatred, discrimination, violence and wars spinning of religious obsession. These are different understandings of God and people should not be fighting over them. All their religions agree about treating others as one wishes to be treated. Maybe if they practiced their religion, and kept their months shut instead talking as they have a special track to God, the passion would have a good, instead of a negative, result.

:rolleyes: I wondered when you'd join this thread. Look. If you have a problem with me talking about my faith, then you'd better stop posting right now. Everyone believes something. You obviously believe a lot of things. And people talk about what is important to them. You do the same as I do. It just irritates you because I disagree. I can't stand hypocrisy.

But back on topic... I think dthmstr has a valid point when he brings up countries that, in an attempt to "progress beyond" faith, have often turned into heartless, fascist, human rights abuse cases. Something to look at if you think that that kind of thing is the way to go.

[Amuse]

Quote by: phoenix_fire :rolleyes: I wondered when you'd join this thread. Look. If you have a problem with me talking about my faith, then you'd better stop posting right now. Everyone believes something. You obviously believe a lot of things. And people talk about what is important to them. You do the same as I do. It just irritates you because I disagree. I can't stand hypocrisy. But back on topic... I think dthmstr has a valid point when he brings up countries that, in an attempt to "progress beyond" faith, have often turned into heartless, fascist, human rights abuse cases. Something to look at if you think that that kind of thing is the way to go.

You forget that it's the ruling forces that stepped away from ANY form of spirituality not the common citizen. They hold to their spirituality but in secret. If you are going to judge a country by its government policies you could say it's a regression but it only represents a small portion of that country's populace.

[phoenix_fire]

That doesn't really make sense.

[Osborn F Enready]

Most of this debate doesn't make sense.

Spirituality is fine when it is kept personal.

Spirtuality preaches elitism and divide if made public.

Look at just the emotion stirred in this debate between non-religious (Me) and religious (DthMstr, Phoenix, Vic).

Religion is its own worst enemy once it leaves your mouth.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: dthmstr254 you want to avoid hell, then you need a way out. the if is easy.

Hell is a vision of fear from those who distort the words of their god.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: dthmstr254 I believe that the loss of spirituality is a regression of man, just check out the USSR and China. I wouldn't want to live there. express your faith, it is what makes you, you. I am a Christian, that effects the way I act, think, and speak.

dthmstr254 respecting our belief is no problemn as neither is your wish not too live in these countries, whose practices are opening up gradualy to a more spiritual view.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I think dthmstr has a valid point when he brings up countries that, in an attempt to "progress beyond" faith, have often turned into heartless, fascist, human rights abuse cases. Something to look at if you think that that kind of thing is the way to go.

phoenix_fire sadly their are many religous countries who fall into the same category. Iran, Indonesia, America Israel where is their spirituality?
Is it religous satanic destruction and intolerance of their fellow humans?

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel Hell is a vision of fear from those who distort the words of their god.

I was wondering how long it would be before I debated with you.


well, considering that God put them out pretty simply: "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death." "the wages of sin is death...". It looks rather clear to me.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Most of this debate doesn't make sense. Spirituality is fine when it is kept personal. Spirtuality preaches elitism and divide if made public. Look at just the emotion stirred in this debate between non-religious (Me) and religious (DthMstr, Phoenix, Vic). Religion is its own worst enemy once it leaves your mouth.

your beliefs influence your life. you don't believe in eternity, so you live like the next moment is just one moment closer to the end of it all. we believe in eternity, so we live like the next moment is one moment closer to the beginning of it all.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: dthmstr254 your beliefs influence your life. you don't believe in eternity, so you live like the next moment is just one moment closer to the end of it all. we believe in eternity, so we live like the next moment is one moment closer to the beginning of it all.

That's a good way to summerize it.

I prefer to look at it more that people that lack faith have a closed minds, closed hearts, those that can believe, not just because someone told them too or they go to hell, but truely BELIEVE are very open minded.

Since this debate is silly in one way, we are all going to learn the truth one way or the other, either oblivion will greet us at death, or when Osborn takes his last breath and finds the afterlife is real... well. That's one of those moments you hope they a "Candid Camera" system so you can see the look on his face

[Osborn F Enready]

Why, you want to see me ream God out in front of all of you?

If he is there, he has a LOT to answer for, and I am not going to cut him slack for HIS sins, IF he is there.

You guys can bow to him and walk behind him smelling his gas, while holding his robe, I will set him straight.

[shunyadragon]

As a Baha'i I believe in progressive revelation, and that humanity can potentially become a more enlightened, spiritual and rational person in the present world than the past. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on my mood, humans have free will and are often prown to making bad descisions. On the whole I am optomistic, in that more and more of the world is becoming a better place to live with time, universal education is becoming more the rule, slavery is fading but not gone, science is pushing aside the shrouds of ignorance despite the reluctant hold outs clinging to ancient superstitions, and women are considered more equal than in the past.

[shunyadragon]

My God is a very natural God and every where you look you see the natural image of
God, of course you may have to look around the mess we make to get a good look.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio That's a good way to summerize it. I prefer to look at it more that people that lack faith have a closed minds, closed hearts, those that can believe, not just because someone told them too or they go to hell, but truely BELIEVE are very open minded. Since this debate is silly in one way, we are all going to learn the truth one way or the other, either oblivion will greet us at death, or when Osborn takes his last breath and finds the afterlife is real... well. That's one of those moments you hope they a "Candid Camera" system so you can see the look on his face

Mr. V,

I think you've got something there, and I'm glad you said that. I've been thinking about going back to church, and now that might give me a little push. Thank you! It is open-minded to believe. It's hopeful!

Sorry if this is off topic, but it was uplifting for me.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Why, you want to see me ream God out in front of all of you? If he is there, he has a LOT to answer for, and I am not going to cut him slack for HIS sins, IF he is there. You guys can bow to him and walk behind him smelling his gas, while holding his robe, I will set him straight.

I'll bet you will. :eek: