Is man basically good or evil?

[weasel]

The fundamental question. As a Christian, it is my belief that man is basically evil. He is not "forced" to do bad things because of his environment. The human species itself is undeniably selfish and cruel. If you were guranteed that you could commit a crime and not get caught, wouldn't you do so? Doing wrong is easier than doing what is right. I believe that this illustrates why we are "a fallen race."

Your comments are appreciated.

[Clarence]

I believe that Good is the food and Evil is the feces. As long as Good has more control than Evil in grand scheme of things, it is not necessary for Good to try and manage Evil. The thing is, really, what is Good? I suppose it is relative. It's a case by case basis. Who's to judge? The only time Good (food) changes it's goals to accomodate Evil (feces) is when there's a severe problem. Think Taco Bell. You might avoid it at certain times because it wouldn't go right. How do you know this? One of the reasons is cuz yo' shit staaank!!

The biggest problem for religion is the tendacy to try and grow. We'll never be good enough, or not for a while. just ask them. Shoot, they'll probably tell ya, one way or another. This is the very cesspool of existence that creates bad feces. People over there eatin' bad and now they's shit stinks. Who is not to blame?

This is one of those global times where people chose sides. In every country, provence, or county, sides will be chosen. And an overwhelming majority of the world's folks will be attemting to chose Good. . Now, back to the question of what's Good or Bad? See? What happens when evil wears blue? I believe the christian and muslim fundamentalists are trying to squash out Evil once and for all. That means us. Not eachother. History shows that attemts to erase all Evil often end up with more Evil. How can one capture, judge and encarcerate people without creating a little Evil?

When Evil gets control of things. When we find ourselves choosing the lesser of evils too often, that's when Good alters course and repairs the breach.

It's not U.S vs Middle East or christian vs muslim. It's Peace vs War. The armies for each are peppered throughout the world. Like playing football without different color jerseys. Can't tell who's who. For your question... I guess we'll find out.

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: weasel The fundamental question. As a Christian, it is my belief that man is basically evil. He is not "forced" to do bad things because of his environment. The human species itself is undeniably selfish and cruel. If you were guranteed that you could commit a crime and not get caught, wouldn't you do so? Doing wrong is easier than doing what is right. I believe that this illustrates why we are "a fallen race." Your comments are appreciated.

What form of Christian are you then?

And if we are all so bad, why would God bother to send His only Son Jesus to save us, i mean if we are so inherently bad, there should be no reason God would wish to save a fallen race.

[Jimmy the Pro]

I also like the ads by Google for a question of man being evil with John Kerry as the advertisement.

Well done

[another day]

Man is neither good or evil, for neither exist, and are merely manifestations of our own survival based fears.

"I believe that this illustrates why we are "a fallen race." "

We are a fallen race? Since when? LOL!! There are 6 billion people on earth, we have massive cities, huge amounts of technology, alot of people live in a lap of luxury so unbelievably clean, comfortable, and providing that it is totally alien to most living creatures. Of course we have problems, reality will always have problems for any race. I can't stand zealots like you perpetrating the idea that humans are shit, that we are worthless good for nothing demons whos piece of shit souls can only be saved through god. It's bullshit. Enough of this ridiculous unattainable standard of perfection, that is not reality. We are intellectual animals.

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: another day We are a fallen race? Since when?

I am pretty sure s/he means fallen from the eyes of God into sin.

Quote by: another day Of course we have problems, reality will always have problems for any race. I can't stand zealots like you perpetrating the idea that humans are shit, that we are worthless good for nothing demons whos piece of shit souls can only be saved through god.

Good thing ur not zealous against people like this right? :rolleyes: I don't think the original poster is saying that we are shit, rather i think s/he is trying to point out in a sense of a above human view we are not a standard we should be, so really s/he is not trying to say we are shit, but rather we are only so far on the way of what we could be. Now, if s/he is saying we are shit, why do you retaliate so angrily? You sound like the zealot not s/he.

Quote by: another day Enough of this ridiculous unattainable standard of perfection, that is not reality. We are intellectual animals.

Hah, as if you deem reality! what a laughable concept, you only apply what you see as reality whereas it is clear everyone has their own form of reality, reality does not belong to you alone and you alone do not dictate it, so please take your erroneous claims elsewhere.

And if we are intellectual animals why do we lack common sense so often?

[another day]

"Hah, as if you deem reality! what a laughable concept, you only apply what you see as reality whereas it is clear everyone has their own form of reality, reality does not belong to you alone and you alone do not dictate it, so please take your erroneous claims elsewhere."

What are you talking about? The FACT that the world can never be perfect is somehow an erroneous claim? What are you going on about? Do you claim that life is perfect? You are full of shit.

The simple fact is, we are all seperate individuals with seperate needs, and there is no way those needs can be met all at once. Which is why, humans can not all get along. It's simple really and there are no erroneous claims there. Reality, nature is a careful balance. Things die and others take their place. There is no room for your ridiculous vision of total perfection where everyone gets along and everyone shares.

[another day]

"Good thing ur not zealous against people like this right? I don't think the original poster is saying that we are shit, rather i think s/he is trying to point out in a sense of a above human view we are not a standard we should be, so really s/he is not trying to say we are shit, but rather we are only so far on the way of what we could be. Now, if s/he is saying we are shit, why do you retaliate so angrily? You sound like the zealot not s/he."
Blah blah blah.

You are not saying anything of substance in this debate. By Zealot, I meant religious zealot obviously. Simply getting excited about a stupid claim is not being a zealot. Care to actually say something of substance instead of just attacking the way I phrase things with your stupid little quips?

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: another day You are not saying anything of substance in this debate. By Zealot, I meant religious zealot obviously. Simply getting excited about a stupid claim is not being a zealot. Care to actually say something of substance instead of just attacking the way I phrase things with your stupid little quips?

I'm not sure you really made much substance either with your stupid little rants.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: weasel The fundamental question. As a Christian, it is my belief that man is basically evil. He is not "forced" to do bad things because of his environment. The human species itself is undeniably selfish and cruel.

Selfish, yes. Selfishness being the highest morality, the greatest good. But not cruel. Cruelty is a learned behavior. Humans are inherently good, because our very existence presupposes it.

Quote by: weasel If you were guranteed that you could commit a crime and not get caught, wouldn't you do so?

It depends on the "crime".

Quote by: weasel Doing wrong is easier than doing what is right.

But we all must do right to live. Consistently doing wrong is only possible in a political system that permits and encourages it, like the one we have now.

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Cruelty is a learned behavior.

very good Morgan i had always remembered that, but never thought to mention it. You see all sin or cruelty is a twist of something good.

Let's say i cut in the water line in class. I had the intention of giving myself some water and because I need that to live, I did a good thing, what made the action bad, however, was I did so not considering the feelings and needs of others first, and that is where the selfish thinking and obeying becomes harmful.

It is not in itself bad to be selfish, however when our selfishness harms others, that is when it becomes a problem.

[Jack]

We may be a selfish species due to our awareness of self. We may be an illogical species as evidenced by our self-destructiveness and poor choices. We may be a foolishly optimistic animal since we often fail to do that which ensures our survival believing we shall prevail over all odds.

But good and evil are religious constructs, and as such only apply to those who choose to use those parameters. I believe it's possible to judge whether or not humankind behaves in a manner conducive to its future survival and present happiness. I think you can provide examples of mankind's inability to live in peace and provide for all inhabitants of our planet.

But are people good or evil? I don't accept that standard.

[weasel]

How do you explain the conscience? It is hardwired to the human species. Just ask a six year old; is it easier for them to steal cookies or give them to someone else? I feel that humanity can tell the difference between right and wrong. Who we are as individuals often depends on the actions we take be they good or evil.

Quote by: another day There are 6 billion people on earth, we have massive cities, huge amounts of technology, alot of people live in a lap of luxury so unbelievably clean, comfortable, and providing that it is totally alien to most living creatures.....We are intellectual animals.

I wonder: of those six billion, how many are starving right now? How many are dying from infectious diseases that modern American medicine could save? The truth is that most Americans (myself included) are spoiled silly. We whine when the air conditioner doesn't work oblivious to the fact that some Africans live daily in one hundred degree weather in the shade without the benefits of dental floss let alone air conditioning. We would rather care about ourselves then give a second thought to what we could do for the millions living improverished. Does this not clearly illustrate our selfish / sinful / (dare I say it) evil behavior as human beings?

If we are so smart, how come people still die of horrible diseases? If we are so smart, why do teenagers commit suicide? Human beings, as a whole, are still far from being considered anywhere near intelligent. If we had come anywhere near this point, how did hurricane Katrina catch us so off guard? Surely if we were an "intelligent species" we could have seen this coming and taken greater action to prevent it and the devastation it caused. But really; what does our intelligence have to do with whether we are basically good or evil? Crimes still happen and people still die as a result. I would wager that there are more than a few "intelligent" bank robbers out there. Does that make them good people? I'm sure a thousand years ago humans said the very thing you just did; they thought technology could solve all their problems and they believed in the power of the human mind. But we are still just as arrogant then as we are now. Have you seen the show Star Trek? Would you not agree that their technology was vastly superior to our own today? Why then did bad things still happen in that universe despite the fact that the show was fictional? Technology is an illusion. It is a shroud and a vapor that we hide behind constantly living in fear that our HD television may not work tomorrow. That is modern civilization. If given the chance to replace us, given enough time, impoverished Africans would behave the same way. Such a fundemental feature, a prefrence to commit ill rather than good, proves that we are basically evil.

Quote by: another day I can't stand zealots like you perpetrating the idea that humans are shit, that we are worthless good for nothing demons whos piece of shit souls can only be saved through god. It's bullshit. Enough of this ridiculous unattainable standard of perfection, that is not reality.

That is not what I am implying. I believe that sin constitutes the reason why we are so messed up. How else do you explain how we always seem to do wrong when our intentions were good? It is the human flaw. In terms of my Christianity (Lutheran to be precise), I believe that the bible's explaination of this question (whether we are basically good or evil) is the most plausible and the most believable. If you don't believe me, read the first couple chapters of Genesis (including the Cain and Abel story) and / or read Milton's Paradise Lost. I am not saying that humans are completely devoid of the capacity to do good. What I am saying is that, deep down, we would rather steal those cookies.

[Jack]

What I am saying is that, deep down, we would rather steal those cookies.

Since you can never really know another person's mind, you are left speaking for yourself. Humans are imperfect according to most standards of perfection. That's because we're human, and because those standards are unrealistic and unnatural. Perfection is an ideal, not a standard by which anyone or anything should be judged.

[Technosoul]

Animals stay true to the law of their own nature. Natural law is a kind of pre-programing that directs an animal to do certain things - a bird knows how to build a nest without going to a school. Humans are sort of a fluke in the natural order of nature. We have lost sight of the law of our own nature that should be within us as a guideing factor - in some cases - in other words we are not limited to just following the indwelling law of our own nature. That is because we can imagine and that allows us to do extreme things, we can torture each other in ways that no animal could ever dream of doing, because they are controlled on a "need to know" bases. Humans can take natural laws such as the natural right for survival and come up with the H-bomb - where as the cat could not, but continues to use just fang and claw in conformity with its own programing. Animals mate in a very simple way and never imagine some other way. Humans can, and we can come up with some pretty extreme ways to have sex or to enguage in romantic mating riturals.

So it is that extremest potential in humans to go beyond what is natural (relative to nature) which consitutes what we often think of as being evil. On the other side of the coin that same extreme potential, activated by our imagination, that can also motivate us towards idealisms that are better then what the animals are allowed to attain too. RE: extreme compassion and bothery love (pulled out of hat, but one could perhaps find better examples?) - Animals do not have religion because that is part of our extreme behavorism as so endowed in our imagination that has a template of intelligence which becomes the tools of the imagination in creating our concepts and there-by the laws of our culture. Such laws so designed to replace the pre-programing that animals are controlled under.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: ldmaniac Let's say i cut in the water line in class. I had the intention of giving myself some water and because I need that to live, I did a good thing,

Absurd. If you weren't in immediate danger of dehydrating to death, then survival had nothing to do with it.

Quote by: ldmaniac what made the action bad, however, was I did so not considering the feelings and needs of others first, and that is where the selfish thinking and obeying becomes harmful.

No -- what made the action bad is that it was a rejection of social order. We need social order to enjoy the high degree of specialization in a modern economy. It was also bad because it made people resent you, which will make things more difficult for you in the future (and in a more formal setting, could lead to disciplinary action). In other words, it was an UNselfish, irrational act. A selfish act is one that improves your life for you, long term.

Quote by: ldmaniac It is not in itself bad to be selfish, however when our selfishness harms others, that is when it becomes a problem.

Example?

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Example?

Sure, let's say that i have an invention that can cure a certain ill. Now let's say I keep that invention to myself so that i won't have that ill at any time. I am choosing to keep that invention to myself, therefore I am being selfish. But if I have the intention of keeping it to myself in spite of other people and not wanting them to have any of it and wanting it all for myself is when selfishness turns bad.

Wanting something for yourself is not bad, and that still qualifies as being selfish. When you want something because you wish to be better than everyone else or to do something that as you said, violates social order and such, that is when it becomes sinful.

Is this a tad bit clearer?

[weasel]

"Human nature is the same now as when Adam hid from the presence of God; the consciousness of wrong makes us unwilling to meet those whom we have offended."

~ Matthew Simpson


"Shakespeare reveals human nature brilliantly: he shines a light on our instinctive desire to dominate each other."

~ Edward Hall


"Someone who thinks well of himself is said to have a healthy self-concept and is envied. Someone who thinks well of his country is called a patriot and is applauded. But someone who thinks well of his species is regarded as hopelessly naïve and is dismissed."

~ Alfie Kohn, The Brighter Side of Human Nature: Altruism and Empathy in Everyday Life, 1990.

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: weasel "Human nature is the same now as when Adam hid from the presence of God; the consciousness of wrong makes us unwilling to meet those whom we have offended." ~ Matthew Simpson "Shakespeare reveals human nature brilliantly: he shines a light on our instinctive desire to dominate each other." ~ Edward Hall "Someone who thinks well of himself is said to have a healthy self-concept and is envied. Someone who thinks well of his country is called a patriot and is applauded. But someone who thinks well of his species is regarded as hopelessly naïve and is dismissed." ~ Alfie Kohn, The Brighter Side of Human Nature: Altruism and Empathy in Everyday Life, 1990.

What is the point of only quoting people. Obviously there are a vast # of people who then to contradict one another so why should these quotes have certain high reguard or value to this debate?

[weasel]

"Some men's words I remember so well that I must often use them to express my thought. Yes, because I perceive that we have heard the same truth, but they have heard it better."

~ Ralph Waldo Emerson