Did Jesus ask Judas to betray him?

[Technosoul]

At the last supper Jesus ordered Judas to "go, do what you must do" after informing the others that one of them will betray him. Then the disciples when to the garden while Judas was making arrangements for his capture by the Romans, then Judas knew just where to take those who would make that arrest. And Jesus did not go someplace else for the night to avoid capture.

Was it part of a divine plan and so Jesus selected Judas to be the one to do the leg work for that so-called entrapment - was it all done on purpose?

For some background data about this topic go to www.msn.com

But go soon as they change their webpage everyday.

[tinybear]

It's possible. Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins was a foregone conclusion from the time of his birth. The 'script' was there and somehow it had to be carried out. Someone had to set the wheels in motion, right?

[Quismo]

could someone explain this "dying for our sins" to me? the whole idea of death bringing forth salvation sounds pretty rediculous to me :/

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Matthew 26:20-24 When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me." They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, "Surely not I, Lord?" Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

Judas decided to betray Jesus. Jesus knew about it. But He knew that He had to be sacrificed. He could easily have avoided capture but that would have been beside the point. I think there are several times that Christ looks someone in the eye and tells them plainly that He knows what they are doing and that it is wrong and they go off and do it anyway. The fact that He knows ahead of time and won't stop you forcibly doesn't mean that He approves.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Technosoul At the last supper Jesus ordered Judas to "go, do what you must do" after informing the others that one of them will betray him. Then the disciples when to the garden while Judas was making arrangements for his capture by the Romans, then Judas knew just where to take those who would make that arrest. And Jesus did not go someplace else for the night to avoid capture. Was it part of a divine plan and so Jesus selected Judas to be the one to do the leg work for that so-called entrapment - was it all done on purpose? For some background data about this topic go to www.msn.com But go soon as they change their webpage everyday.

while Jesus was going to be betrayed, it didn't matter whether it were by Judas or not. however, Judas was the one who had never asked any questions regarding spiritual concepts, and he had a motive to have Jesus killed other than the money from the Sanhedrin. he was the treasurer among the disciples. no more Jesus meant he could off and go with the treasure.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Quismo could someone explain this "dying for our sins" to me? the whole idea of death bringing forth salvation sounds pretty rediculous to me :/

Throughout the Old Testament, a blood sacrifice was required to atone the sins of man. Although it made little sense to them, the requirement for this was the blood of a spotless lamb. However, every year the people of Israel looked forward to the time that the prophets described that the Lion of Judah would become the Lamb of God and take our sins away. Jesus had to be fully man to die, and had to be fully God for his death to atone for the sins of mankind for all time. dying for our sins takes care of Romans 3:23 "for the wages of sin is death." if the wages of sin is death, what happens if Jesus takes those wages from us? we then receive life, as the rest of the verse says, "for the wages of sin is death BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 5:8
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
When Jesus died on the cross He paid sin's penalty. He paid the cosmic price for all sin, and when He took all the sins of the world on Himself on the cross, He bought us out of slavery to sin and death! The only condition is that we believe in Him and what He has done for us, understanding that we are now joined with Him, and that He is our life.
Because He loved us and gave Himself for us!
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
and finally, after all this, if you have received Him, He gives you the power to become the child of God.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[Technosoul]

One poster suggested that Judas had a motive, to make off with the money that had been donated to Jesus for his mission.

Another poster reported that Jesus had to die because death is the wages of sin, so Jesus made off with everyone's wages.

Simular motives - very interesting.

Anyway everyone gave good reasons, and provided the verses and chapters needed, to make their point as far as I can tell. You have expressed the interpretations that most biblical experts have advocated. Personally i see no reason to object those claims.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Technosoul One poster suggested that Judas had a motive, to make off with the money that had been donated to Jesus for his mission. Another poster reported that Jesus had to die because death is the wages of sin, so Jesus made off with everyone's wages. Simular motives - very interesting. Anyway everyone gave good reasons, and provided the verses and chapters needed, to make their point as far as I can tell. You have expressed the interpretations that most biblical experts have advocated. Personally i see no reason to object those claims.

what if it was both. Jesus had to be betrayed, Judas had the motive to make it off with the money, and Jesus made it off with the world's wages for sin.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: dthmstr254 Quote by: Technosoul One poster suggested that Judas had a motive, to make off with the money that had been donated to Jesus for his mission. Another poster reported that Jesus had to die because death is the wages of sin, so Jesus made off with everyone's wages. Simular motives - very interesting. Anyway everyone gave good reasons, and provided the verses and chapters needed, to make their point as far as I can tell. You have expressed the interpretations that most biblical experts have advocated. Personally i see no reason to object those claims. what if it was both. Jesus had to be betrayed, Judas had the motive to make it off with the money, and Jesus made it off with the world's wages for sin.

Judas was the one who offered the Lamb as the burnt offering for the rest of us. Who else among men was willing to offer the spotless lamb to be sacraficed? None of them. Should we not be thankful to Judas for bringing the Lamb to the alter? Do any of you have actual scriptures that speak directly about the motives of Judas? Other then a unfounded report that he got paid some silver coins being offered as reward money.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Quismo could someone explain this "dying for our sins" to me? the whole idea of death bringing forth salvation sounds pretty rediculous to me :/

Who created the sins? Oh, yeah, Adam & Eve for some unknown "evil" thing they did.

I think there may be something spiritual, and a connectivity out there, but religion is too made up as they went along to me.

I honestly don't know how people can believe this stuff, and for so many years without a lot of doubts creeping in.

Seems Protestants hold on longer than Catholics to me. Maybe we need to take a survey on that one.

[Boetie]

Another way to look at the Judas incident is like this:

The Gnostics viewed death as a liberation.

To better understand what I have just said, Recall the Judas Scroll and let's play an imagination game.

Imagine you were sent back two thousand years ago and sitting across the table from a bishop. This bishop tells you that you will be assigned to a town to oversee the flock. The bishop instructs you to weed out the Gnostics from the true believers.

You go to your town where there awaits a huge crowd welcoming you. You get a head rush out of the welcoming party. Remembering the bishop's instructions you ask the crowd to raise their hands if they believe in Jesus. Everyone raises their hands. Happy with what you see, you are sastisfied that everything is okay.

A year later the bishop stops by your town and asks you if you weeded out the Gnostics. You tell the bishop that you have observed your flock over the year and from what you can see there are no Gnostics.

The bishop takes a deep breath and then tells you: Such persons(Gnostics) are, to outward appearances, sheep, for they seem to be like us, from what they say in public, repeating the same words of confession that we do, but inwardly they are wolves.

Be honest, wouldn't you feel a little pissed off after hearing what the bishop just told you? What the bishop is telling you is that you've been clowned.

Let's switch point of view, you are now the Gnostic. How would you feel mingling with a crowd of Christians knowing that if they were ever to find out that you are a Gnostic, they could very well get pissed off and kill you. Especially if everyone in the Christian Community for the past year has been doing the for "he's a jolly good fellow" number on you, because you have prayed, sang, and for all outward appearances looked to be a model Christian. It's bad enough that a priest might feel like he's been clowned, but for a whole Christian Community to feel that way.

To a Gnostic it wouldn't matter if you were a Jew or a Christian you're going to be clowned all the same because both Christians and Jews bows to the Israel creator God aka as the lesser God.

Why did the Gnostics do this covert act? Does the Judas Scroll provide for us a clue as to why?

The Judas Scroll is powerful because it may be the clue as to why the Gnostics went covert. All it takes is a Judas to out you and you are a goner. But the ones that takes your lights out are the minions of the Israel creator God aka the lesser god. There is a deep meaning in this.

To understand the deeper meaning we have to look into the meaning of death between the minions of the lesser god and the Gnostics. The Israel creator God views death as a punishment. The Gnostics on the other hand sees death as a liberation.

Jesus on the cross was not being punished, he was being liberated.

Christians, Jews, Jews, Christians, these labels don't matter what matters is they all bow to the Israel creator God and hence they are all the same which is to say they are all minions of the lesser god. And as minions they feel forced to put to death the Gnostics for the crime of clowining them.

Did the Gnostics go extinct because they did the same thing Jesus did in the Judas scroll?

A warning to those whom are practicing the religion of Islam, you never know who amongst your followers is really thinking in the back of his or her mind that Allah is the lesser god.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe Quote by: Quismo could someone explain this "dying for our sins" to me? the whole idea of death bringing forth salvation sounds pretty rediculous to me :/ Who created the sins? Oh, yeah, Adam & Eve for some unknown "evil" thing they did. I think there may be something spiritual, and a connectivity out there, but religion is too made up as they went along to me. I honestly don't know how people can believe this stuff, and for so many years without a lot of doubts creeping in. Seems Protestants hold on longer than Catholics to me. Maybe we need to take a survey on that one.

Hello Miss Monroe - take me to your apple tree and let the devel have tomorrow - ahaaa - heaven tonight. Wait a moment - thought you died already - oh well, who cares.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Boetie Another way to look at the Judas incident is like this: The Gnostics viewed death as a liberation. To better understand what I have just said, Recall the Judas Scroll and let's play an imagination game. Imagine you were sent back two thousand years ago and sitting across the table from a bishop. This bishop tells you that you will be assigned to a town to oversee the flock. The bishop instructs you to weed out the Gnostics from the true believers. You go to your town where there awaits a huge crowd welcoming you. You get a head rush out of the welcoming party. Remembering the bishop's instructions you ask the crowd to raise their hands if they believe in Jesus. Everyone raises their hands. Happy with what you see, you are sastisfied that everything is okay. A year later the bishop stops by your town and asks you if you weeded out the Gnostics. You tell the bishop that you have observed your flock over the year and from what you can see there are no Gnostics. The bishop takes a deep breath and then tells you: Such persons(Gnostics) are, to outward appearances, sheep, for they seem to be like us, from what they say in public, repeating the same words of confession that we do, but inwardly they are wolves. Be honest, wouldn't you feel a little pissed off after hearing what the bishop just told you? What the bishop is telling you is that you've been clowned. Let's switch point of view, you are now the Gnostic. How would you feel mingling with a crowd of Christians knowing that if they were ever to find out that you are a Gnostic, they could very well get pissed off and kill you. Especially if everyone in the Christian Community for the past year has been doing the for "he's a jolly good fellow" number on you, because you have prayed, sang, and for all outward appearances looked to be a model Christian. It's bad enough that a priest might feel like he's been clowned, but for a whole Christian Community to feel that way. To a Gnostic it wouldn't matter if you were a Jew or a Christian you're going to be clowned all the same because both Christians and Jews bows to the Israel creator God aka as the lesser God. Why did the Gnostics do this covert act? Does the Judas Scroll provide for us a clue as to why? The Judas Scroll is powerful because it may be the clue as to why the Gnostics went covert. All it takes is a Judas to out you and you are a goner. But the ones that takes your lights out are the minions of the Israel creator God aka the lesser god. There is a deep meaning in this. To understand the deeper meaning we have to look into the meaning of death between the minions of the lesser god and the Gnostics. The Israel creator God views death as a punishment. The Gnostics on the other hand sees death as a liberation. Jesus on the cross was not being punished, he was being liberated. Christians, Jews, Jews, Christians, these labels don't matter what matters is they all bow to the Israel creator God and hence they are all the same which is to say they are all minions of the lesser god. And as minions they feel forced to put to death the Gnostics for the crime of clowining them. Did the Gnostics go extinct because they did the same thing Jesus did in the Judas scroll? A warning to those whom are practicing the religion of Islam, you never know who amongst your followers is really thinking in the back of his or her mind that Allah is the lesser god.

During the crusades the Chrstains killed everyone in the Gonostic camp, they lived in an isolated community and crusade reports stated they were all "walking around naked". (beleif that trying to hide from God behind a fig leaf is wrong). The Gonostics thought that Jesus was teaching that this world is an evil place and that it was ruled over by Satan (the fallen angel). And that heaven is the good kingdom that is ruled over by Jesus (God). They thought that the souls dwelled as innocent children in heaven but due to sex they get transferred here to this evil world - born into sin. To save the unborn souls from Satan's world they banded reproductive sex. They also had a ritual where they would have alternitive sex and then they would hold the sperm up to the sky and offer the soul back to its rightful place in the heavens above. The soul would then evaporate and rise towards the heavens. By saving unborn souls that way they would earn the right to go to heaven upon death.

When the crusaders came along and saw them doing such rituals they freaked out and killed the whole flock.

[Technosoul]

And so the Antichrist that John wrote a letter about - addressed to the early Christian churches, "you know about the Anti Christ who is coming, the spirit of the antichrist is already amoung you (as members of the church) killed the Gnostics because Satan rules the earth with his crusades - murdering people and believing that they are doing God a favor.

And so like Jesus, who was also murdered, they all went to the good kingdom, which is not of this world. Free at last.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Technosoul Judas was the one who offered the Lamb as the burnt offering for the rest of us. Who else among men was willing to offer the spotless lamb to be sacraficed? None of them. Should we not be thankful to Judas for bringing the Lamb to the alter? Do any of you have actual scriptures that speak directly about the motives of Judas? Other then a unfounded report that he got paid some silver coins being offered as reward money.

If you read the Gospels, you will see that all along, the priests intended to kill Jesus. They would have found a way with or without Judas. The thing about Judas that makes his betrayal particularly ghastly is that he was Jesus' friend. He had heard everything Jesus taught. He had been extremely priviledged among men to have the company and love and instruction of the Son of God. And knowing and experiencing all of this, he rejected it all, turned against Jesus and the other disciples, and betrayed them. Jesus says clearly in the verse I cited above that this man was in for it bad. He would not be receiving a hero's welcome. He was the tool of the devil. Period. Thanking him for salvation would be like thanking Hitler for the technological innovations that came out of WWII. You can't in your right mind bring yourself to do it.

[Athena]

Quote by: Quismo could someone explain this "dying for our sins" to me? the whole idea of death bringing forth salvation sounds pretty rediculous to me :/

It is along the same lines as any other human sacrifice, and annoying as hell that Christians do not acknowledge this, and don't equally honor all those who gave their lives for everyone else. A whole lot went into the thinking of the time, and the explosion of the volcano that covered Pompii was very much a part of the end of the world thinking that was spreading. Jews were not the only ones who thought the world was coming to an end, and not all Jews believed this. But the appocoliptic Jews mixed with the mystical Gnostics, results in Jesus.

To the question- yes, it was planned and you need to begin with Jesus going to the temple and turning over tables, during a very tense holiday time, when Roman security was high, and such behavior was sure to alarm everyone. Jesus was not just rebelling against Roman authority but also the Pharasees, with all their prestege and money, taken from the poor. Jesus was an archist; one of those folks will throw themselves into the flames, because their goal is to make a difference and they will give their lives for that purpose. The fame and glory is more desirable than life itself. But he wasn't the movement. The movement was much bigger than him, or he would have been forgotten, instead of deified.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: John 5:41 I do not accept praise from men

Jesus was not some fanatic who threw Himself on a spear to make a point. The message of the cross makes sense only when you see it in terms of justice. We have an accuser. Do not forget that.

[Marilyn Monroe]

[quote=Technosoul

Hello Miss Monroe - take me to your apple tree and let the devel have tomorrow - ahaaa - heaven tonight. Wait a moment - thought you died already - oh well, who cares.
[/QUOTE]

I'm speaking from the grave, and I still look really good, for a dead woman. :eek:

[aintgottaclue]

Quote by: Technosoul At the last supper Jesus ordered Judas to "go, do what you must do" after informing the others that one of them will betray him. Then the disciples when to the garden while Judas was making arrangements for his capture by the Romans, then Judas knew just where to take those who would make that arrest. And Jesus did not go someplace else for the night to avoid capture. Was it part of a divine plan and so Jesus selected Judas to be the one to do the leg work for that so-called entrapment - was it all done on purpose? For some background data about this topic go to www.msn.com But go soon as they change their webpage everyday.

Have you checked out the Gospel of Judas?
http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/
http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science...spel.judas.ap/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040600921.html

[Marilyn Monroe]

[quote]
Quote by: Boetie
Another way to look at the Judas incident is like this:

The Gnostics viewed death as a liberation. [quote]

I think the people from that time frame probably all viewed death as a liberator. :( Just kidding!