Sexual attraction and love, the differences?

[orgaelin]

Hi folks,

I'm wondering about the differences between sexual attraction and love, and the reason I'm asking in a religious forum is because my own view is that love is something generated by and for the soul, rather than the body/brain. And obviously I'm suggesting that sexual attraction comes from the brain.

I think I'd be hard-pressed to find a psychologist who would agree with me, since the orthodox view is that love is simply an evolved biological survival mechanism because, apparently, there are advantages to remaining in faithful partnerships.

Personally I think that such a view confuses love with jealousy. They are entirely seperate, as you can be jealous of a partner long before love develops, or long after it's worn off. So what I mean is that the brain generates jealousy, for which the survival advantages are much more clear, as well as sexual attraction, and that love is entirely nothing to do with these biological processes.

Which leaves me with one more question. If love comes from the soul, what is the difference between romantic love, love for family, and love for one's fellow beings?

~ Org. :)

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

One-night stands are immoral, say women

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1879

[orgaelin]

You know what Arawn, what that article says to me is 'our survey shows that 99% of women lie even when it's an anonymous survey'!

[Chancellor]

Sexual attraction is nothing more than the autonomic physiological and emotional response that we call finding someone "attractive." Love is something that develops over time as one grows in a relationship with the other person.

[orgaelin]

Thanks for your answer, Chancellor.

I of course agree with you on sexual attraction.

But you didn't say much about love. It evolves in a relationship over time... but what is it and why does it grow? The way you describe it, it could almost be confused with mere familiarity!

Do you think love is generated in the same manner as sexual attraction - i.e. by the brain?

I'm writing an article on this subject for my site, and one of the things I was just thinking about before your post was to do with aesthetics. I wouldn't be the first to argue that aesthetic appreciation is also something that comes from the soul. So I was wondering about how the combination of sexual attraction and aesthetic appreciation can affect a person. Just random thoughts!

~ Org.

[Sonart]

.

While I'm an atheist, my 'religion' is Neo-Darwinism. ( Chancellor )

Therefore I believe that every aspect of human behavior can be directly attributable to evolution. So in that light, sexual attraction and love are symbiotic instincts. As Chancellor pointed out, sexual attractive is simply the physiological motivator to replenish the species... the instinctive urge, manifested through our sexual organs and hormones that affect our mind, to reproduce.

Love is a far more complex instinct. Animals feel love, at least certainly the higher forms, although not in the manner we perceive it. Higher animals will bond in parent/offspring relationships that can last a lifetime, as well as bonding with their groups. The reason humans view our bonding instincts as different is because humans have the capacity for imagination and the ability to abstractualize our self awareness -- our emotions, desires and instincts -- although we seldom think of them as 'instincts because, since we do imagine and abrstractualize our thoughts, we perceive them as much more.

If just the act of reproduction were enough to maintain the species, we wouldn't need love. But because humans have such large brains, they must be born at a much younger relative form... meaning that human infants are basically helpless for several years, unlike most animals which, almost from birth can fend for themselves.r The higher and smarter the animal, the more time it takes not only to grow the physical tools to survive on their own, but also the mental tools... meaning the more complex they are mentally, the more time it takes time to learn how to be whatever they are. As I love to say, a lion is born with the instinct to hunt, but it has to learn HOW to hunt.

And again, because humans survive by the vast power of their brains, not only does it take human infants much longer to grow to a physical maturaty, it takes that much longer for us to learn the mental maturity and accumulated knowledge needed to take a cooperative adult role in our complex, cooperative society.

Enter Sexual Love > As with many birds and some animals, raising a human child requires the cooperation of both parents. One to nuture and the other to provide for the helpless child. Therefore sexual lust will expand into an emotional bond that will -- hopefully -- keep parents together for at least the 7 to 8 years it takes to raise a child to a point where they have any chance to survive on their own. (hence, the 7 year itch )

Parent/Child love > One of the strongest bonds, the instinct for the parent to put all their energy into caring for and protecting their offspring, and for the offspring to remain with the parent for as long as it takes to reach adulthood. We see this often in higher animals.

Familial Love > Humans are social animals who survive in nature by bonding into cooperative social groups, and the basic unit of this social bonding is the nuclear family.

Tribal Love > The instinctive bonding of individuals to their social group, an instinct towards loyalty and cooperation.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now I realize this will be less than satisfactory for most of you here. You'd prefer to think of such a deep emotion as 'Love' as something spiritual, elevated above simple animal instinct, as if that somehow demeans us.

Not to me. This is why I call it my religion. I have complete faith that nature has equipped us with everything we need to survive and to lead relatively happy, constructive lives. It's also where my sense of morality comes from. My conscience is my natural instinct that informs me how best to achieve a cooperative and harmonous social group, which benefits me as much as anyone else. Murder, lying, stealing, adultery... each of these promotes disharmony and suspicion within the society, destroying the cohesion we need for mutual success.

So all I need to do is treat others as I'd have them treat me, and life is good.

.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: orgaelin Thanks for your answer, Chancellor. I of course agree with you on sexual attraction. But you didn't say much about love. It evolves in a relationship over time... but what is it and why does it grow? The way you describe it, it could almost be confused with mere familiarity! Do you think love is generated in the same manner as sexual attraction - i.e. by the brain? I'm writing an article on this subject for my site, and one of the things I was just thinking about before your post was to do with aesthetics. I wouldn't be the first to argue that aesthetic appreciation is also something that comes from the soul. So I was wondering about how the combination of sexual attraction and aesthetic appreciation can affect a person. Just random thoughts! ~ Org.

Familiarity can lead to love.

Everything happens in the brain.

[underbear1]

Sexual attraction takes place below the waist, and for men it's a case of using your other head to govern your actions.
Love takes place a little higher in the body, neither head will help once infatuation sets in.

[Ken Carman]

Love is a learning experience. Although one can truly "love" someone you are attracted to, it's less likely. I think males, especially, take a while to realize that attraction and love aren't really related, probably because we are a little more visual in what attracts us. The atributes that we think we want in a person often mask what winds up turning the relationship into past tense... if we're lucky and don't wind up in some "War of the Roses" situation. I remember reading a study that offered the conclusion that women have the same problem only it's more scent oriented. Something about the scent we give off as men that indicates whether we would be good mates, child wise, or not. Is that true? Don't know.

I do know those to whom we are drawn with compelling, magnetic, force are often those we should stay the hell away from.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: underbear1 Sexual attraction takes place below the waist

Actually, I'm attracted to a pretty face first.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Sonart . While I'm an atheist, my 'religion' is Neo-Darwinism. ( Chancellor ) Therefore I believe that every aspect of human behavior can be directly attributable to evolution. So in that light, sexual attraction and love are symbiotic instincts. As Chancellor pointed out, sexual attractive is simply the physiological motivator to replenish the species... the instinctive urge, manifested through our sexual organs and hormones that affect our mind, to reproduce. Love is a far more complex instinct. Animals feel love, at least certainly the higher forms, although not in the manner we perceive it. Higher animals will bond in parent/offspring relationships that can last a lifetime, as well as bonding with their groups. The reason humans view our bonding instincts as different is because humans have the capacity for imagination and the ability to abstractualize our self awareness -- our emotions, desires and instincts -- although we seldom think of them as 'instincts because, since we do imagine and abrstractualize our thoughts, we perceive them as much more. If just the act of reproduction were enough to maintain the species, we wouldn't need love. But because humans have such large brains, they must be born at a much younger relative form... meaning that human infants are basically helpless for several years, unlike most animals which, almost from birth can fend for themselves.r The higher and smarter the animal, the more time it takes not only to grow the physical tools to survive on their own, but also the mental tools... meaning the more complex they are mentally, the more time it takes time to learn how to be whatever they are. As I love to say, a lion is born with the instinct to hunt, but it has to learn HOW to hunt. And again, because humans survive by the vast power of their brains, not only does it take human infants much longer to grow to a physical maturaty, it takes that much longer for us to learn the mental maturity and accumulated knowledge needed to take a cooperative adult role in our complex, cooperative society. Enter Sexual Love > As with many birds and some animals, raising a human child requires the cooperation of both parents. One to nuture and the other to provide for the helpless child. Therefore sexual lust will expand into an emotional bond that will -- hopefully -- keep parents together for at least the 7 to 8 years it takes to raise a child to a point where they have any chance to survive on their own. (hence, the 7 year itch ) Parent/Child love > One of the strongest bonds, the instinct for the parent to put all their energy into caring for and protecting their offspring, and for the offspring to remain with the parent for as long as it takes to reach adulthood. We see this often in higher animals. Familial Love > Humans are social animals who survive in nature by bonding into cooperative social groups, and the basic unit of this social bonding is the nuclear family. Tribal Love > The instinctive bonding of individuals to their social group, an instinct towards loyalty and cooperation. ----------------------------------------------------------- Now I realize this will be less than satisfactory for most of you here. You'd prefer to think of such a deep emotion as 'Love' as something spiritual, elevated above simple animal instinct, as if that somehow demeans us. Not to me. This is why I call it my religion. I have complete faith that nature has equipped us with everything we need to survive and to lead relatively happy, constructive lives. It's also where my sense of morality comes from. My conscience is my natural instinct that informs me how best to achieve a cooperative and harmonous social group, which benefits me as much as anyone else. Murder, lying, stealing, adultery... each of these promotes disharmony and suspicion within the society, destroying the cohesion we need for mutual success. So all I need to do is treat others as I'd have them treat me, and life is good. .

I would agree with the explainatons discribed as Neo-Darwinism. Not sure if it was evolved or if each creature of love was just created that way - but I do not think that human love or human attractions are much different then what other animals might experience - other then in our imagination. If the imagination is our soul then that would be another idea to explore.

Attractions to other humans can be for reasons other then sex, or because the other person is pretty or handsome, or smells nice. I for example have a loving and tender relationship with my pet cat and visa versa, but it has nothing to do with sex or that we must bond for survival purposes.

In social units we are not attracted to everyone in our group but we learn to get along by tolerating each other and what we dislike about each other. When was the last time you attended a "hug the homeless" event? Point being - no such thing. Not sure if mere toleration can be classified as love.
Even if we treat everyone the as we wish to be treated ( hoping for selfish reasons - sometimes - they will hold the same philosophy).

Otherwise we got laws that were created for the hardhearted - those who do not comprehend the virtures of intelligent compassion.

At a zoo this kid somehow got over the fence and fell down a wall into the ape cage, everyone feared going into the cage because those gollias are real big, and mean looking. The kid was injured and crying. Then the ape went over to the kid, picked the kid up and took him to the door where the zoo attendants inter the cage at. He left the kid at the door and went back to his former spot and the zoo keepers quickly rescued the kid. So - what inspired the ape to do that? His soul?

A man wanted to prove that Dolphins have 'spiritual compassion' as a natual sense So he picked a spot where lots of Dolphins habit, he swam way out into the ocean to a point where he knew he could not make it back to shore, then panic set in (which was intended). As he predicted and had faith in, a Dolphin came and allowed him to have a piggy back ride back to shore. Why? It makes no logical sense.

For that matter why would Dolphins need to evolve higher intellience then anything else that eats fish in the ocean, what is the big deal, you swim fast and gobble up a fish - you don't need to be rocket scienitist to do that. Yet the have a high I.Q. - for what evolutionary purpose did that occur?

Did we evolve our sense of being spiritual because we became aware of the mystery of life? A natual desire to have answers for our wonderment and curosity. It would seem many animals while they are learning about their envornment around them are that way, snooping around at anything interesting to them. Even investigating things and useing them as toys. Is such pre-shamanistic behavior?

Is the "God answer" just a short cut so that we do not have to evolve into the all-knowing human?

Philosophy, another short cut?

Our collective brain is like - how old - millions of years old by now, generations of learning, study, research, and speculation. And we have still not matured into our full potential of knowing or knowledge? It takes a long to time grow up I guess.

But how smart are we - to invent a word like love and then ask 'what do you mean - what is love'?
But I will give you a clue - love is your mother.

[Ken Carman]

But I will give you a clue - love is your mother.

Well, let's see now. She's been dead 40 years and was almost dead long before that.

Love is my mother?

YUCK!

[orgaelin]

Hi Sonart. Great post. I don't have time to give you a full reply at this precise moment but wanted to just drop in another quick question...

If love is instinctual for the reasons you list, why do gay men and women fall in love?

[orgaelin]

Okay, more time now.

Technosoul - hey ol' buddy ol' pal! Like my new avatar?! All about balance, (surprise!) but this time includes the understanding that balance itself must also be balanced, hence the center circle also.

Sonart. You prepared a very lucid argument there and have my applause. I especially liked your finishing point, that your worldview is your religion just as many as any other. I would suggest, however, that 'faith' is a word reserved for beliefs that are not readily observable and/or verifiable as yours are. Perhaps 'trust' is more fitting?

I'm really not sure I can argue against the biological explanation of love. This is where it comes down to a choice, and the real reason that faith is called faith. For me, your explanation is a valid, observation-based analysis of the subject of love. But for me, mine is an equally valid faith-based analysis of the same. And the difference is a matter of choice, with neither choice being better or more accurate than the other. Truth is personal.

Having said, I'm going to try and argue my corner any way!

My own understanding is that romantic love is not necessary from an evolutionary standpoint when you already have a range of emotions that could achieve the same preference for single partners.

For example there is jealousy. Jealousy is one of our most powerful emotions, and really has nothing to do with love. I don't know if you have experienced this, but it is possible to be jealous of a partner even when you are not presently in love with them. The extent to which you are in love with them is irrelevant. With this obviously comes greed, selfishness, the need to 'posess', the advantage of having a ready sexual partner to maximise chances of offspring.

Certainly love can play a role, and I absolutely recognise as a father myself that there are powerful instincts involved in caring for our children. But again, there are other things aside from love that could explain this. For example, protecting our children or any loved ones is simply self-preservation extended to our genetic similars.

What I'm saying is that if love didn't exist, all these traits still would. We would still fight furiously to protect our offspring and siblings, we would still defend our exclusive rights to our partners, etc.

Also, there is some inconsistency between the idea of 'evolved love' and the fact that we (men) generally have sex drives high enough to send us from bed to bed, disregarding love completely. And I have to say that, although society believes it's only men that are unfaithful, women are at it just as much as men are.

Love fits the shape of the jigsaw, but if the picture doesn't join up there's no point fitting the piece there.

I'm sticking with my existing idea that love comes from the soul. But hey, I've enjoyed the challenge!

~ Org.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: orgaelin You know what Arawn, what that article says to me is 'our survey shows that 99% of women lie even when it's an anonymous survey'!

orgaelin if you consider it to be so then you have lots to unlearn Besides its taken from the Mail lol

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Sexual attaction : the eyes perceive the groin throbs and wham.

Love as others say comes on many levels, it can begin with sexual attraction but generaly creeps like some delicious infection that permeates the body and makes us comfortable being with that person no matter what they say and do. Is it to do with the soul well we come to is their a soul in each of us (A different arguement methinks) But our spirit our inner self the brain mind heart trianlgle that is difficult to measure other than increased rhythms of heart and rushes of adrenalin which occur when that person is present. Yes our spirt feels and gives of and too the energies of love.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Ken Carman But I will give you a clue - love is your mother. Well, let's see now. She's been dead 40 years and was almost dead long before that. Love is my mother? YUCK!

Not everyone's mother, I was eluding to the "idelaistic" mother.

Love can also be yucky at times.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: orgaelin Hi Sonart. Great post. I don't have time to give you a full reply at this precise moment but wanted to just drop in another quick question... If love is instinctual for the reasons you list, why do gay men and women fall in love?

Interesting that we say "falling" in love. Falling from what higher status?

[Technosoul]

Quote by: orgaelin Okay, more time now. Technosoul - hey ol' buddy ol' pal! Like my new avatar?! All about balance, (surprise!) but this time includes the understanding that balance itself must also be balanced, hence the center circle also. Sonart. You prepared a very lucid argument there and have my applause. I especially liked your finishing point, that your worldview is your religion just as many as any other. I would suggest, however, that 'faith' is a word reserved for beliefs that are not readily observable and/or verifiable as yours are. Perhaps 'trust' is more fitting? I'm really not sure I can argue against the biological explanation of love. This is where it comes down to a choice, and the real reason that faith is called faith. For me, your explanation is a valid, observation-based analysis of the subject of love. But for me, mine is an equally valid faith-based analysis of the same. And the difference is a matter of choice, with neither choice being better or more accurate than the other. Truth is personal. Having said, I'm going to try and argue my corner any way! My own understanding is that romantic love is not necessary from an evolutionary standpoint when you already have a range of emotions that could achieve the same preference for single partners. For example there is jealousy. Jealousy is one of our most powerful emotions, and really has nothing to do with love. I don't know if you have experienced this, but it is possible to be jealous of a partner even when you are not presently in love with them. The extent to which you are in love with them is irrelevant. With this obviously comes greed, selfishness, the need to 'posess', the advantage of having a ready sexual partner to maximise chances of offspring. Certainly love can play a role, and I absolutely recognise as a father myself that there are powerful instincts involved in caring for our children. But again, there are other things aside from love that could explain this. For example, protecting our children or any loved ones is simply self-preservation extended to our genetic similars. What I'm saying is that if love didn't exist, all these traits still would. We would still fight furiously to protect our offspring and siblings, we would still defend our exclusive rights to our partners, etc. Also, there is some inconsistency between the idea of 'evolved love' and the fact that we (men) generally have sex drives high enough to send us from bed to bed, disregarding love completely. And I have to say that, although society believes it's only men that are unfaithful, women are at it just as much as men are. Love fits the shape of the jigsaw, but if the picture doesn't join up there's no point fitting the piece there. I'm sticking with my existing idea that love comes from the soul. But hey, I've enjoyed the challenge! ~ Org.

I like the new desgin you use.
The design is a philosophy into it's own right, and even explains some basic concepts about nature and human relationships.

It might be that we would have sexural attraction towards any good looking babe, but when someone is attracted to us that flatters our ego and 'we love it'. (especially if they do not notice our faults). Now the soul should be married to the Oversoul, not another person, because only the Oversoul can fill that spiritual void inside, and likewise the Oversoul can seed our minds with turisms (like daily bread for the tummy) and when we allow those seeds to grow in the womb of our mind, then we can give birth to the "Word", which is really the only begotten son (daughter) of that Oversoul (Spirit of truth). If we try to fill a spiritual void with another person, or their attention, then we will alway remain thirsty for more because it cannot totally satify that void (lacking of vitimen "G".

A lot of things happening in the phyical world also happen in the spiritual dimensions of the self, as the same designs are employed in both arenas. As above so below.

So you must have that spiritual center (circle) and also the outer physical circles of balance. Re: the design illustration you so provided.

(do not mean "must" as an absolute).

That is my altenative concept for the concepts that everything is the by-product of just evolution.

[underbear1]

Gays and lesbians have instincts, so why wouldn't our love fit that description?