Let's discuss death.

[another day]

That NDE you cited Vicchio, you said her brain was dead with no signs of activity and that the NDE happened during this time period, but how do you or how would SHE know the experience happened during this time and not before or after she was brought back to life?

[dreamer]

[Quote mr vicchio}
We are all going to die, it's probably the biggest thing after conception that we KNOW will happen.

Me personal my body one day will die.And yes i agree we "Know" this will happen

So lets discuss Death.

There are really two views on death, and these are the two I want to focus on in relation to life.

1. There is nothing, death is the end of your exsistance. You're born, you live, you die. That's it. Be it 5 minutes or 105 years, that is all you get to experience reality.
I think it is down to ones own judgment on life if poeple come down to nothing in there judgment. There may be nothing there in the frist place?
We are born we eat,learn, sleep have children thats all we have to do. While we live hour lifes .And i wish life, it self was that easy
Yes i find this one very inttresting be it 1 second our your soul then lives for ever. I have dicided in my life which way i will go on my bodys death. and its not nothing.that would be a wast of life in my eyes. All that grief we all have to go threw just to live.Its hard for me and for some its so easy. And we where all born equal.and expperience realty with "Free will"
2. There is an afterlife. I personally have a different view of the after life, and it's not the traditional Catholic one. www.near-death.com has some very compelling NDE's (Near Death Experiences) which paint a picture of what comes next IMHO.
I have all so had anear death experience i agree but my experience in my realty may and will differ.

What I want to discuss is, the effect for you the two beliefs have. Does the thought of nothingness bother you? Do you believe that thoughts of the afterlife are just a crutch to make death acceptable.
Not for me looking forward to death when ever it comes. Its going to be easyer than living the hardships of living life in todays enviroment .
Personally, I believe in an afterlife. I believe there is more to the universe then just what we are now. Do I have any solid concrete proof. No. I do not.
Do I have any solid concrete proof. No
some greater importance then just exsisting."I THINK SO"
DEAMER

[Amuse]

Quote by: another day pheonix_fire, you clearly don't believe in the truth, your "faith" is terribly shaky if you ask me consdiering the way you talk. Keep on trying to convince yourself that you really believe it all, you said so yourself its a delusional fantasy to keep you from fear and misery and the possibility to rub it in everyones faces after you die. Ridiculous. Your philosophy on life is pitiful. As for the "after-life"...Any traditional view of after-life is pure delusion. Heaven, hell, purgatory,paradise you name it, it's all wishful mythical bullshit. I think it's exactly like before we were born. You return once again to the whole of the universe and your short time experiencing a focused version of reality is over. You as you know it is completely meaningless, you cease to exist. If reincarnation exists, then obviously you would not be conscious of your past lives, considering we are not conscious of our past lives and should be since we must have already been reincarnated if this cycle is endless. But if were not conscious of our past life/lives, then what is the difference between that and no reincarnation at all? What part of you is even being passed on? It's way too abstract.

There are some who remember past life experiences. Children at very young ages remember parts of past lives because they haven't been conditioned to believe it's "just your imagination honey" by their parents yet.
The reason most don't remember past life experience is they have gotten wraped up in this illusion. Kinda like when you get into something and before you realize it hours have gone by. Before each knew life, we set up our challenges in order to experience and understand that which we want. Once born we have an amnesia effect because there wouldn't be a challenge otherwise. If you knew before hand in this existance what you set up for yourself then it wouldn't have the impact and the experience would be watered down if you will.

[Amuse]

Quote by: another day They know or they think? Besides, many christians undergo huge surgeries and such to prolong their life. What you said simply isn't true. Christians are just as scared of death as anyone else, they have just attempted to delude themselves in such a way that they don't have to face the reality of death. Ever stop to think that maybe the similarity of these so-called "near death experiences" stems not from the reality of after-death, but from what society has conditioned us to believe happens when we die? I just don't see why people give these NDEs any credit...It's just a dream that happens under extremely stressful circumstances.

I would disagree that NDE's are dreams due to extreme conditions. I have not had one but I know people who have and it profoundly changes them. Fear of death is a cultural thing. Everbody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.

[Ken Carman]

1. There is nothing, death is the end of your existence. You're born, you live, you die. That's it. Be it 5 minutes or 105 years, that is all you get to experience reality.

Possible. Personally I doubt it, but quite possible. After all the theology and science it almost comes down to... "use the force Luke." Either you sense, feel it's true and assess that something must be there... or not. Near death experiences (Kubler-Ross???) and such are interesting... although subjective and therefore not really proof. Maybe the brain protects us before we finally shut down... or not.

2. There is an afterlife.

Maybe. As you stated, near death experiences are interesting. I had one. That, more than anything else, is why I believe. But as I stated...


Nothingness? Nah, doesn't bother me. There are worst things, like being stuck somewhere with a deity that wants me to lick his ego constantly through "worship," along with all those who at the very last moment "accepted Christ," as some believe. I could be stuck throughout eternity with some of the biggest a-holes that ever lived. Talk about... HELL. Personally I kind of like the construct offered in the movie, "What Dreams May Come." We make, design, our own heaven and hells. If we really persist we can change... even there. I also like a construct that was offered by Albert Payson Terhune's wife. Terhune was a author at the turn of the last century. Both he and his wife were mainstream. I think they were Presbys, if I remember right. When he died she was looking for an important legal document and she clearly heard his voice telling her where to find it. After that, through various means (most of which I find suspect, like mediums.) he basically "wrote my book," she declared. The book she (he?) wrote offers a vision of a heaven with levels. You do what you did best in life which provides inspiration for those here. There is no Hell, Satan's there and he's miserable. Once again, we make it what it is.

Do absolutely I believe any of this? No, I find it interesting. I don't know, or pretend to know, the truth. I find it fascinating speculating. Is such belief a "crutch?" For some, yes, for many, no. Once again, you design your heaven, or hell here... or perhaps there. (Here, unfortunately, we have too much help from murderers, rapists, con men and women...) Then, of course, you have reincarnation and other "options." Some seem more valid than others.

I do believe that if we use our faith to soften the "cruelness" aspect then we are may be doing ourselves, and society, a diservice. Although many use faith to be better persons, I have met and know of those to whom the fact they will go elsewhere just gives them an excuse to offer up a big plate of that cruelty to others who don't believe as they do, or agree with them.

BTW, as a sidebar. I enjoy this topic. In fact I find it a little funny, kind of like the toon "Death" in Family Guy. I know that makes me odd, but I wish we would talk, and laugh, about it more. I think our sweeping it under the rug mentality is damaging, mentally.

[Ken Carman]

I try not to think about death, I imagine its an unpleasant experience. And I for one am gonna be one of the people that are frozen. Or stuffed. Im not letting my body be wormfood - Kite

Personally, I want to be cremated and placed in a work of art. I approached Red Grooms, who works in papier-mache' and with other, stranger, materials about it though a letter. He never got back to me. Some people just take this all too seriously. Of course I could pick a person I don't like, especially some big shot politician, and have my ashes snuck into his pepper shaker.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: rez but why do they determine death by your heart stoping?

It's just an arbitrary convention that's been used.

[Mr.Vicchio]

The ture death as far aas we can occure is when everything stops, heart, brain waves... everything.

Few return when this occurs.

[Nono]

Quote by: Boetie Friends and family hit with me with all kinds of questions, such as do I take Jesus into my heart to which I answered no. Other questions were asked such as am I seeing my life flashing before my eyes (...).

Jesus Murphy! As if having an aneurysm etc. isn't enough.
Thanks, Boetie.

[Nono]

Thanks, brien. You'd mentioned some time ago that you'd had prostate cancer, but I didn't realize things had been that dire in your case. More power to ya!

[Nono]

It beats me, knowing the vagaries of human consciousness and the effect on mine of this or that substance (such as booze), how anyone can have any positive convictions on the matter at all.

Here, for what they are worth, are a coupla anecdotes.

1) When my mother became pregnant with my little brother, she got hell from her surgeon on the grounds of catastrophic varicose veins in her legs that he'd tried to fix without success. He urged a therapeutic abortion, which my mother -- a stern anti-abortionist -- refused. Well, she consulted her obstetrician who worked something out with her surgeon.

Anyway, on the day she learned about all this she dropped by to see her own mother, who was dying of kidney disease. Gave her a back rub, during which her (my mother's) hair almost stood on end when she saw her dead father smiling ironically at her from a bedside photo of him, one I've seen many times -- there's no expression on his face at all.

Later that day she (a) leaned that her mother had just died and (b) got the go-ahead for taking the pregnancy to term. My brother was duly born, and a couple of years later toddled into the room to announce to her in a matter-of-fact voice that he'd once been her father. He proceeded to tell her things about herself that he couldn't possibly have known. He also told her that our house -- my mother had grown up just down the street from it -- had once been green (it had been repainted another colour many-many years before). She says she questioned us other three kids, all older, about this, and we knew nothing at all about it. So how could he?

My mother -- raised as a strict Presbyterian (as were we all in our family, God help us) -- spent decades not telling a soul this story for fear of ridicule, or worse. Only recently did she spill the beans.

So I said to my brother "I hear you were once X (our grandfather)." He -- an ultra-rationalist automotive type of guy -- replied "All I can say is that, for whatever reason, I remember this house as green."

2) A lifelong friend of mine, of no fixed metaphysical convictions, is into local politics -- knows a lot of people. One couple (whom he describes as ultra-conventional, unimaginative, money-grubbing yuppies) got a good deal on a beautiful old house in the area. He knows both of them well. When he drove past and saw a for-sale sign, he stopped in to express his surprise and ask what was up. "It's haunted", they replied bluntly. "We see her almost every night."

He says such a notion is so radically out of character with them that it has given him serious pause.

Well they were apparently seeing some sort of apparition, that seems certain. And they couldn't stand it. Exactly what that means I couldn't say. But it suggests that reality may not be all it's cracked up to be.