"The God Power"

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire You display a painfully childish and simplistic understanding. Books and books have been written on the premise of doing precisely what you have suggested and in each, the writer has been wise enough to maintain that it would not end well. Books like Fahrenheit 451 and 1984. In each case, the utopia you described required the destruction of will and creative thought, of love and emotion, of invention and motivation. Basically, in order to acquire paradise, humans were required to forfeit their humanity and become automatons. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. You should know by now that any mortal man who had absolute power would just use it for his own selfish ends. Ever seen "Bruce Almighty"? What that average Joe did with absolute power was mild in comparison with what most of us would do. Mankind tried once before to be God and it didn't turn out too well for any of us. Men can't even manage their own insignificant lives. What hell do you think would be released if they tried to manage the universe? I can tell you for certain that I would be scared beyond explanation if some human being even had an iota of God's power, with one exception: Christ alone.

And you, my freind, have a embarresing childish and lack of understanding or respect for the conceptual powers God supposedley has to use at his own will. You really think a book like Fahrenheit 451(horrible book I might add) is a reasonable bundle of creative ideas to which a GOD would have trouble avoiding?

You seem to be oblivious or just plain ignorant to the very structure on which my "ideal god" thoughts were based on. The only world I speak of is nothing less than Heaven, a place commonly known in the Christian world for being arguabley a LOT better than here on Earth. I believe they even call it a utopian of sorts. If the world I speak of is so destined to fail as forseen by your grand display of all-knowing books, than Heaven would inevitabley face the same fate. You say paradise would strip us of our humanity? I'd hate to see what Heaven's like. Though I would hope God isn't as simple minded as you are and allows himself to think beyond a few books written by limited minds and realize his powers are limitless and thus he is capable of so much more. ^^

Even after your selfmockery you proceed with words of "selfishness" when I clearly indicated that such emotions or feelings would no longer exist, and I would hope even you would be able to understand that this is all very possible when dealing with the unlimited powers of God.

Surely this is where your joke must stop, but no? With the power of God, I would imagine, lifts the burden of stress and clears the mind.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: dthmstr254 read post #16

Oh.. alright.. could have sworn it was filled with irrelevant crap but I'll check again.

butane+match+your mouth=breathing fire.

Ah.. how foolish of us. We never would have thought of that cleverness. Our argument has been foiled by your immense witty come backs of a reply!!

Moving on..

no, it's our fault that we DECIDED to screw over His creation.

By His creation you mean Jesus.. than I have yet to speak of anything about it. And if not, you've spoken of choice and sin many times yet you haven't addressed my arguments against your repetetive garble. And so.. no, this also is not a reply to my post.. sorry.

people like Copernicus and Newton?

Aha.. aha... aha.. no, this is not a reply to my post either.

"for God is willing that none should perish." He doesn't want us to go to hell. we make the decision to sin, and by sinning, we must accept our wages. "for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

You've said this so many times, but when someone actually has a response and a perfectly valid argument, it's like all you know how to do is spit out the same lecture over and over again as if you are completely oblivous to the argument you pretend to be replying to.


So no, dth, you haven't replied to my post. And if you think post #16 is a reply, than I'm afraid I have nothing to do but worry. Now, if you would like to seriously reply to my post, than sure, go on ahead. Just remember to read, and take the time to understand what your reading. Sometimes, from my experiences with debating with you, I get the feeling you just scan and pick out key words and never give it another glance while you begin your preaching while people like me have to step back and wonder... wtf? I'm sorry if you truley are trying really really hard to come up with your arguments its just the impression I get when I read your replies.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer And you, my freind, have a embarresing childish and lack of understanding or respect for the conceptual powers God supposedley has to use at his own will. You really think a book like Fahrenheit 451(horrible book I might add) is a reasonable bundle of creative ideas to which a GOD would have trouble avoiding? You seem to be oblivious or just plain ignorant to the very structure on which my "ideal god" thoughts were based on. The only world I speak of is nothing less than Heaven, a place commonly known in the Christian world for being arguabley a LOT better than here on Earth. I believe they even call it a utopian of sorts. If the world I speak of is so destined to fail as forseen by your grand display of all-knowing books, than Heaven would inevitabley face the same fate. You say paradise would strip us of our humanity? I'd hate to see what Heaven's like. Though I would hope God isn't as simple minded as you are and allows himself to think beyond a few books written by limited minds and realize his powers are limitless and thus he is capable of so much more. ^^ Even after your selfmockery you proceed with words of "selfishness" when I clearly indicated that such emotions or feelings would no longer exist, and I would hope even you would be able to understand that this is all very possible when dealing with the unlimited powers of God. Surely this is where your joke must stop, but no? With the power of God, I would imagine, lifts the burden of stress and clears the mind.

The difference between Heaven and your mythical utopia is that the former is run by a Being who is good (all the time) and the latter would be run by a fallible human. If you're not a little cynical about mankind, you should be. I maintain that an average person with omnipotence would be a terror. We make a mess of the few things we have power over now.

I also scoff at your arrogance and self-importance. I highly doubt you are on par with the aforementioned writers, limited though they may be. Don't forget, Caesar, thou art mortal. You can't even manage the rudiments of spelling your post correctly, much less the weightier concepts of cosmology. I don't limit God at all. I would never presume to do such. But having a lot of power does not make you God. God isn't just a bigger version of us like the Greeks and Romans thought. God is something different entirely. It is very much to our benefit that the One who holds all of the power is beneficent.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire The difference between Heaven and your mythical utopia is that the former is run by a Being who is good (all the time) and the latter would be run by a fallible human. If you're not a little cynical about mankind, you should be. I maintain that an average person with omnipotence would be a terror. We make a mess of the few things we have power over now. I also scoff at your arrogance and self-importance. I highly doubt you are on par with the aforementioned writers, limited though they may be. Don't forget, Caesar, thou art mortal. You can't even manage the rudiments of spelling your post correctly, much less the weightier concepts of cosmology. I don't limit God at all. I would never presume to do such. But having a lot of power does not make you God. God isn't just a bigger version of us like the Greeks and Romans thought. God is something different entirely. It is very much to our benefit that the One who holds all of the power is beneficent.

ahaa..... scoff......

Actually, I don't feel the current "One" who holds all the power is beneficent. I'm just going to copy paste my argument on your benevolant god, and I hope you won't ignore it like the last time I tried debating with you.

According to your own doctrine.. God is omnipotent, omniscient, benevolant, perfect, all-mighty being.

This god, is capable of anything, anything less would not make him much of a god. Now lets see here, god is capable of anything, but he creates a world of suffering. Now, don't tell me its our own fault, that we would just be robots if we couldn't sin.

Some Christians would than tell me that we would just be robots without the ability to commit a sin. Than wtf is Heaven? Can we commit sins in Heaven, if not, according to those Christians, we would be nothing but robots in Heaven. So why does this perfect benevolent being let things like Hell and sin exist if everyone could just be in Heaven? He wanted us to worship him? And to choose to do so without clearly letting us know, hence faith? Not only that but, he already knows that by the way he creates us he knows precisely the consequences of the flaws he puts in us and knows before creating us that we will pass regulations or not. Are you Christians just the lucky ones that God decided to create a certain way that would consequentially lead you to Heaven and its just too bad that I was created in a way that God knew would send me to Hell forever? How in the world does a finite sin that God not only allows, but creates the sinner in the exact way they are, deserve a infinite punishment? Do you realize how long infinity is? It can't even be defined by time. How can a perfect being allow all of this?

The classic retort by theists to the problem of evil is that God gave humanity free will. The usual reason given for this is that he didn't want to create mindless robots, and the consequence of this decision is that evil is the responsibility of man, not God. I will attempt to prove if the omnimax God exists, then the moral responsibility for evil lies with him whether or not he gave us free will.
Let's consider the Xian description of post-judgment eternity in heaven. This will apparently be a place of moral perfection where there will be no evil - indeed there can't ever be any evil there. Now either the inhabitants of heaven will have free will or they won't.
If they have free will then that's proof that it's possible for free will and moral perfection to co-exist. That means that having free will is not the reason for evil - which means that the ultimate responsibility for evil is back on God's shoulders.
On the other hand if they don't have free will then the theist's logic falls completely apart. He is left in the absurd position of arguing that God gave us free will because he didn't want mindless robots serving him in order to ultimately have mindless robots serving him for all eternity. If God ultimately wants mindless robots then why bother giving us free will in the first place? In that case, he's still responsible for all the evil caused by giving us free will.

I hear crap about "its our own fault life sucks, God let us make choices". Well guess what.. not everyone is as fortunate as you are. Some kids are born and will know nothing but pain. They didn't CHOOSE for this pain, they were born into it. And this exact pain is what drives these already suffering children to sneer at the very idea of "God". Why should they believe? Cause its a nice thought? Heaven? Well according to most doctrine, these hateful, god-sneering, "non-believers" after a lifetime of suffering will go straight to Hell.
And like I said.. God supposedly created everything. He is capable of anything. But he chose to create things in such a way that would cause such inevitable suffering. And we know a perfect place without sin is possible. I believe you call it Heaven. But this supposedly "benevolent" god chose to make so many suffer. Not only that, but allow ETERNAL suffering in Hell. And for what? So that he can see us miraculously maintain faith and worship him by our own will? At the cost of so many? When he doesn't even give the slightest clue of his existence to the rest of us. And KNOWS we aren't going to believe. Yet, he chooses to let things happen as they are. He CHOSE to create this world just as it is when he is capable of ANYTHING. He is CAPABLE of providing a sinless, eternally blissful place, called Heaven. Yet he didn't create the world that way. He knows what suffering with become of his creations. He knows some of his creations will fail the test of life and be sent to Hell to suffer for ETERNATY. He is capable of Heaven. He capable of ANYTHING. What kinda sick god do you worship?

Why did God create disease? Is that our own fault too? Why did God create natural disasters that would kill millions, again, must be our own fault? Oh wait, I know, he just wants to test our faith by putting us through a world of suffering. Why would a god, who is supposed to be unselfish, have the desire to test the faith of his creations by putting them through a world of suffering, when we already know god is capable of much more, hence Heaven? Why does this god want to test the faith of little Betty who will be kidnapped, raped, tortured, and eventually killed, by not only letting this happen, but by not even answering her prayers for help? Don't tell me its our won fault, little Betty didn't choice to be kidnapped raped tortured and killed. Little Johnny didn't choose to be born with a disease that will slowley disinigrate his bones that will bind him to a motorized wheel chair, a distorted face, poor speaking capabilities, embaressment from soiling himself, constant agony, and the knowledge that he will die at a young age. And what does God expect? That little Johnny will just forgive God and accept that God just likes testing his faith? Oh and, if he didn't pass the test of faith, he would have just sent him to suffer forever in Hell? I would hope, even if little Johnny disbelieved and even scorned the very idea of God, that God would allow him in Heaven nonetheless. But even so, if God was going to just allow him in Heaven no matter what, why did he have to test his faith? What sick "need" does a god have that would allow him to do this?

PS.. please don't tell me God's ways are just too mysterious for me to understand. That's like saying you don't know, but your still dumb enough to believe it.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Oh.. alright.. could have sworn it was filled with irrelevant crap but I'll check again.

well, since you don't happen to know what is relevant to this, I will not continue. adieu.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: dthmstr254 well, since you don't happen to know what is relevant to this, I will not continue. adieu.

LMAO

You can't be serious. ^^

Is that your new excuse? I mean COMM'N dth! If you don't have a reply for my response to your utter crap of an argument, than I'm sorry, but please don't feed me excuses... or at least make some up that are somewhat convincing?

I even elaboratley explain, and created a post, just for you, on why your post WAS NOT a reply, or reasonable response like you so blindly claimed when reffering me to "post # 16". And yet, still I don't get a response to my arguments which were directed mainly towards you. And that would be fine, I don't really care. But to come up with some lame excuse that somehow pardons you from responding is just plain sad. ^^

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer LMAO You can't be serious. ^^ Is that your new excuse? I mean COMM'N dth! If you don't have a reply for my response to your utter crap of an argument, than I'm sorry, but please don't feed me excuses... or at least make some up that are somewhat convincing? I even elaboratley explain, and created a post, just for you, on why your post WAS NOT a reply, or reasonable response like you so blindly claimed when reffering me to "post # 16". And yet, still I don't get a response to my arguments which were directed mainly towards you. And that would be fine, I don't really care. But to come up with some lame excuse that somehow pardons you from responding is just plain sad. ^^

you responded to #17, not # 16, you nincompoop. like I said, you don't seem to know what is relevant and what is not. #17 is in respons to Ish, not yourself. #16 was in response to you. if you can't count, it isn't my fault. now, ADIEU!

[whoracle]

i can't say that i want to add to this and rant about the whole dysfunctional father figure god *would* be if he existed...nor will i go off about the countless inconsistensies of the bible, quaran, etc...but

Quote by: Isherwood The pay sucks and the housing situation is questionable (clouds?).

Quote by: Isherwood Lame. You can't breathe fire, either. No ability=no choice=robot?

ROFL

[Lullaby Chainer]

a little pychotic (do you mean PIE-cotic or PSY-chotic? ) rule created by GOD. He wants us to CHOOSE to love him. if you have no desire to choose sin, then there would be no choice. he might as well be holding an all-mighty gun to our heads and saying "love me" if He goes your way. we would have no choice. your idea as your new position of the "wannabe god" are a virtual paradox.

You really don't get it, do you?

Please tell me, what is Heaven if my "utopia" idea would render humanity as robots? And please tell me, why do you think God is incapable of defeating your insane little "logic" rule about choice? I said I would give them the WANT to do good, and remove the DESIRE to do bad. PLEASE, try to follow me on this. ^^

"the heavens declare the glory of God." if He explicitly proved His existance, then what would be the point of faith? you know what people would do then? same thing they are doing to George Bush. criticize His every move.

Oh, so that is worth the cost of a world of suffering and not only that, but a ETERNITY of suffering for thoughs who are just too-flawed to make it to Heaven? WHAT KIND OF SICK "NEED" DOES YOUR GOD HAVE?

And BOOOHOOO, is it just too painful for God to receive a little criticm but he's ok with all the suffering he is allowing?

e suffering is a direct result of our own stupidity. if you won't listen to the ones He sends into your life, you won't listen to Him.

First off.. that is COMPLETLEY irrelevant to what you were replying to, and, to say "if you won't listen to the ones He sends into your life, you won't listen to Him" is just plain stupid. It's entirely more likely that I would actually listen to God himself than some guy he "sent" me. I mean, c'mon dth. Think. It's not that hard. ^^

boy am I glad I won't have to listen to you and others like you who are so self-conceited and self-centered that they think they know everything. it has been tried according to your rules. you know what happened? the USSR, China, Iran, etc.

Tried with my rules? O.o You mean no suffering? A utopia of bliss for all? Pure creations who wish to do right? I don't remember that ever happening. Unless of course you're twisting my rules. ^^

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer You really don't get it, do you? Please tell me, what is Heaven if my "utopia" idea would render humanity as robots? And please tell me, why do you think God is incapable of defeating your insane little "logic" rule about choice? I said I would give them the WANT to do good, and remove the DESIRE to do bad. PLEASE, try to follow me on this. ^^

look, do you want a choice or do you not. if you do, then you will make good on that choice, if you do not, then you have already made your choice.

Oh, so that is worth the cost of a world of suffering and not only that, but a ETERNITY of suffering for thoughs who are just too-flawed to make it to Heaven? WHAT KIND OF SICK "NEED" DOES YOUR GOD HAVE? And BOOOHOOO, is it just too painful for God to receive a little criticm but he's ok with all the suffering he is allowing?

the suffering here is a fraction of the suffering of hell. imagine the heat of the center of the largest star in the universe, multiply it by about 200000000 to the 200th power and that is what hell is. He has no need at all. if it were up to need, He could have just put you right in hell. if it were needs, He could have made it so you would have no choice and would be in hell right now. would you rather that? it isn't NEED it is a WANT. He WANTS to have a personal relationship with YOU. He wants to have a personal relationship with me and everyone else here. but can someone have a relationship with another person if the other person refuses to let them in their life?

First off.. that is COMPLETLEY irrelevant to what you were replying to, and, to say "if you won't listen to the ones He sends into your life, you won't listen to Him" is just plain stupid. It's entirely more likely that I would actually listen to God himself than some guy he "sent" me. I mean, c'mon dth. Think. It's not that hard. ^^

it really isn't. and with a little look into history and human nature and psychology, I don't need to look too far. look at pharaoh. how many miraculous signs did God do in Egypt before Pharaoh let the Jews go? and then the idiot went out after, as if he thought God had forgotten about him. let us look at more human idiocy. repeatedly, people have repeated the same mistake. the reason Napolean failed in his conquest of Europe was because he tried to defeat Russia on their own ground in the winter. that was repeated TWICE in both world wars. that was only part of why WW1 was a failure for Germany. they also tried to fight a 2 way war. Hitler started out correctly, but screwed it over later on and failed utterly the same way. humans will never learn from their mistakes.

Tried with my rules? O.o You mean no suffering? A utopia of bliss for all? Pure creations who wish to do right? I don't remember that ever happening. Unless of course you're twisting my rules. ^^

let's put it this way, unless you plan on screwing with free will, you ain't gonna make it work. human nature is to break rules. ever heard people say "there ain't a rule that ain't worth breaking."?

[Lullaby Chainer]

look, do you want a choice or do you not. if you do, then you will make good on that choice, if you do not, then you have already made your choice.

Look, answer the question, or just shut up already. ^^

the suffering here is a fraction of the suffering of hell. imagine the heat of the center of the largest star in the universe, multiply it by about 200000000 to the 200th power and that is what hell is. He has no need at all. if it were up to need, He could have just put you right in hell. if it were needs, He could have made it so you would have no choice and would be in hell right now. would you rather that? it isn't NEED it is a WANT. He WANTS to have a personal relationship with YOU. He wants to have a personal relationship with me and everyone else here. but can someone have a relationship with another person if the other person refuses to let them in their life?

You're right! Hell must suck! God allows it! For his own creations! Who were just too flawed to make it to Heaven! Who were made exactley the way they are by God! Who's future in Heaven in Hell is already known by God! By God, they are made, and by God, they are made, in such a way, that only God knows, will lead them, by this EXACT way, to either Heaven in Hell, after passing, or failing, the test of life, which just so happens to be a test of doubtfulness in God's existance, and a test of horrible suffering, just to get thrown to Hell, to suffer forever.

Yes! Hell is a sucky place! ^^

Oh, but right, it's ok, cause he "waaants" us to pass the test and love him, not a "neeeed", my mistake. ^^

it really isn't. and with a little look into history and human nature and psychology, I don't need to look too far. look at pharaoh. how many miraculous signs did God do in Egypt before Pharaoh let the Jews go? and then the idiot went out after, as if he thought God had forgotten about him. let us look at more human idiocy. repeatedly, people have repeated the same mistake. the reason Napolean failed in his conquest of Europe was because he tried to defeat Russia on their own ground in the winter. that was repeated TWICE in both world wars. that was only part of why WW1 was a failure for Germany. they also tried to fight a 2 way war. Hitler started out correctly, but screwed it over later on and failed utterly the same way. humans will never learn from their mistakes.

Really now?

"look at pharaoh. how many miraculous signs did God do in Egypt before Pharaoh let the Jews go?"

You see? He didn't want to listen to anything God supposedly "sent". I'm sure if God appeared to him it'd be a different story. I'm not sure if you intended to stab yourself in the back like that..

let's put it this way, unless you plan on screwing with free will, you ain't gonna make it work. human nature is to break rules. ever heard people say "there ain't a rule that ain't worth breaking."?

Than please stop ignoring my question with repetative garble and try just ANSWERING the effin question, please. ^^

What is Heaven? God can pull it off, but when I'm god, I suddenly run into bizare freedom of choice rules? O.o

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer You're right! Hell must suck! God allows it! For his own creations! Who were just too flawed to make it to Heaven! Who were made exactley the way they are by God! Who's future in Heaven in Hell is already known by God! By God, they are made, and by God, they are made, in such a way, that only God knows, will lead them, by this EXACT way, to either Heaven in Hell, after passing, or failing, the test of life, which just so happens to be a test of doubtfulness in God's existance, and a test of horrible suffering, just to get thrown to Hell, to suffer forever.

look, I am too flawed to get into heaven. DL Moody on his best day is too flawed to get into heaven. shoot, Paul is too flawed to get into heaven on his own works. every single religion has one thing in common. that is that man is sinful. where Christianity splits off is the part where God came down in the form of man and died for our sins, to pay for our sins. Hell was made for Satan, not for you or me. it was made for sin. if a person repents and allows Christ into his heart, He has become a new creature, "old things [sin] are passed away, behold all things are become new." God wants to change you. do you want to change? that is the bottom line. do you want to change?

Yes! Hell is a sucky place! ^^ Oh, but right, it's ok, cause he "waaants" us to pass the test and love him, not a "neeeed", my mistake. ^^

no test. salvation is by grace. it is a gift that is given, and not earned. you don't work your way to heaven. if that were the way, not a single person would ever make it.

Really now? "look at pharaoh. how many miraculous signs did God do in Egypt before Pharaoh let the Jews go?" You see? He didn't want to listen to anything God supposedly "sent". I'm sure if God appeared to him it'd be a different story. I'm not sure if you intended to stab yourself in the back like that..

He also spoke to many other people. Nebuchadnezzer, the entire country of Israel (His Spirit did dwell with them day after day after day), Judaea, Samaria, the Pharisees. only a fraction of the people He has appeared to have turned to Him. His Word is written clearly for us to see. you have a limited number of times that the Spirit will speak to your heart. will you turn Him away? this could be the last time, and He may let you go "to your sin." those who have the truth repeatedly shown to them and deny it will be left to their own devices one day. I have seen too many people who have had that happen to them that it isn't funny anymore to me. between all the hazards of this world, and the stupidity of mankind in general, our days are numbered. tomorrow isn't promised. what would happen to you if you walked outside today and got hit by a semi truck, or your heart just stopped beating while you slept. we all know how possible it is that some calamity could occurthat could end one of our lives. what if that someone was you? what would you say to God if He asked you "why should I let you into my heaven?"

Than please stop ignoring my question with repetative garble and try just ANSWERING the effin question, please. ^^ What is Heaven? God can pull it off, but when I'm god, I suddenly run into bizare freedom of choice rules? O.o

Heaven is freedom from sin and a dwelling place in the presence of the Lord. that is where the freedom of choice rules occur. without Jesus's death on the cross, or (for the Old Testament people) the sacrifices and (essential in all the sacrifices) the faith involved, there is no way to get into heaven. throughout history, whether the method of sacrifice was an altar or a cross, salvation has been through one common road. "salvation by grace through FAITH, not of works, lest any man should boast." to show this for the pre-cross times, Abraham lived before the law. it says in Romans that Abraham was saved "by faith." it is no different now. road isn't different, just the method of transportation.

[whoracle]

Quote by: dthmstr254 Hell was made for Satan, not for you or me. it was made for sin.

I'm going to have to interject here that the original "Hell" or "Gehenna" as referred to in the bible originally referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem (in modern-day Israel) where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped.
The idea of an unending Hell for the damned (so judged by God, I'd assume) was added much much later by people like King James for the sake of scaring people into his brood.
I've never understood why devout people of faith never seem to read their history.

[Lullaby Chainer]

look, I am too flawed to get into heaven. DL Moody on his best day is too flawed to get into heaven. shoot, Paul is too flawed to get into heaven on his own works. every single religion has one thing in common. that is that man is sinful. where Christianity splits off is the part where God came down in the form of man and died for our sins, to pay for our sins. Hell was made for Satan, not for you or me. it was made for sin. if a person repents and allows Christ into his heart, He has become a new creature, "old things [sin] are passed away, behold all things are become new." God wants to change you. do you want to change? that is the bottom line. do you want to change?

Dth, this is getting kinda annoying. So I'm just going to ask you this.. Who DOES go to Hell?

no test. salvation is by grace. it is a gift that is given, and not earned. you don't work your way to heaven. if that were the way, not a single person would ever make it.

It doesn't matter what you call it. It is what it is. And nothing you've said has been relevant to the points I made.

Heaven is freedom from sin and a dwelling place in the presence of the Lord. that is where the freedom of choice rules occur. without Jesus's death on the cross, or (for the Old Testament people) the sacrifices and (essential in all the sacrifices) the faith involved, there is no way to get into heaven. throughout history, whether the method of sacrifice was an altar or a cross, salvation has been through one common road. "salvation by grace through FAITH, not of works, lest any man should boast." to show this for the pre-cross times, Abraham lived before the law. it says in Romans that Abraham was saved "by faith." it is no different now. road isn't different, just the method of transportation.

-sigh-

Yes dth.. that's all very interesting. But it doesn't answer my question.

What does Heaven have, that my utopia "idea" doesn't? And why is it that I'm being charged with removing humanity's free will with this "bizzare" "utopia" idea yet Heaven escapes your ridiculous accusations?

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Dth, this is getting kinda annoying. So I'm just going to ask you this.. Who DOES go to Hell?

those who do not accept the gift of salvation from sin and hell.

It doesn't matter what you call it. It is what it is. And nothing you've said has been relevant to the points I made.

you said that we had to "pass the test" I responded by saying there was no test. it was completely relevant to what you said.

-sigh- Yes dth.. that's all very interesting. But it doesn't answer my question. What does Heaven have, that my utopia "idea" doesn't? And why is it that I'm being charged with removing humanity's free will with this "bizzare" "utopia" idea yet Heaven escapes your ridiculous accusations?

it has nothing that your utopia doesn't have, but yours has one more thing added: flaws. God is perfect and holy, and perfect and holy God cannot have communion with sin.
for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: whoracle I'm going to have to interject here that the original "Hell" or "Gehenna" as referred to in the bible originally referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem (in modern-day Israel) where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. The idea of an unending Hell for the damned (so judged by God, I'd assume) was added much much later by people like King James for the sake of scaring people into his brood. I've never understood why devout people of faith never seem to read their history.

correction, there are over 54 verses in the Bible that mention hell as a place, one of which was written by Moses, who never went into the promised land, and another written in Job, which is quite possibly the oldest surviving piece of literature we have in our possession today, older even than the pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible.). Job was around prior to the building of the city of Jerusalem, most likely a predecessor of Abraham even. he, or one of his friends, are the likely authors. that dates the origin of hell to much later than that. plus the fact that it is mentioned extensively in the New Testament, wich is much older than king James.

[whoracle]

No offense intended, but don't you think it's had a bit of cut and paste over the years? why else would that ditch around jerusalem have been given that name...of all names? i said people LIKE king james. i can't even count the number of publishers who've put the bible out with their own copywriters/editors. do you honestly believe that's a new thing?
Job most certainly predates that occurence...but do you really believe that no one ... no one in the course of time ... ESPECIALLY during the crusades had their hand in the cookie jar?
Even tithing has been contaminated from it's original purpose. And for what? Money. I refuse to believe they'd hold the book of Job sacred when they raped so many others over profit. I'd even assert that those 54 verses were added after the fact.
Just my opinion...

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: whoracle No offense intended, but don't you think it's had a bit of cut and paste over the years? why else would that ditch around jerusalem have been given that name...of all names? i said people LIKE king james. i can't even count the number of publishers who've put the bible out with their own copywriters/editors. do you honestly believe that's a new thing? Job most certainly predates that occurence...but do you really believe that no one ... no one in the course of time ... ESPECIALLY during the crusades had their hand in the cookie jar? Even tithing has been contaminated from it's original purpose. And for what? Money. I refuse to believe they'd hold the book of Job sacred when they raped so many others over profit. I'd even assert that those 54 verses were added after the fact. Just my opinion...

Jewish scribes were held in high esteem because of the seriousness of copying God’s Word. Jewish tradition demanded a precise method of preparing themselves, preparing the materials, and the copying process; failure to adhere to God's standard of copying without error had serious consequences. The copying of any error was considered a sin. In recognition of this, a process was developed and codified in the Hebrew Talmud. The following is just a sample of the regulations.

* There was a specific way to prepare and dedicate the manuscript material so that it would be pure to receive God’s Word.

* There was special and dedicated black ink for copying Scripture.

* Each word was read alone and aloud from an authentic copy before it was written.

* When the word GOD was encountered, the scribe’s pen had to be wiped clean. When YHWY was encountered, the scribe had to wash his body before he could write it.

* Each letter and word had a certain distance from each other and could not touch.

* Each letter and word was counted.

* Each column of text could only permit 48-60 lines.

* Each page could only permit a certain number of letters and words.

* Each page was rigorously checked (in addition to counting, finding the beginning, mid-point, and ending letter, etc.)

* Any mistake on a page, the page was condemned.

* 3 mistakes on one page condemned the whole manuscript.

would you like the job? this is the extremely rigorous method by which scribes copied holy manuscripts then. so, in answer to your underlying question, "is the copy we have today reliable?" by the historical facts concerning the process of copying, especially concering the focus on quality, yes it is. for years, the argument that people had changed the Old Testament over the years had been used. however, upon the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the copies made by the Essenes are translated exactly the same as ours. there was 1000 years between the copy we had after that and them. that is the essence of the quality of the copying demonstrated. 1000 years, and not one change. on a second count, the spiritual count, I say yes as well, for all scripture is "theopnuestos" or "God-breathed." God literally dictated each word of the gospel in it's original form, and there are enough copies of the New Testament to cross-reference, and enough quality to the copies of the Old Testament, that I count them as completely reliable copies.


edit: there are also enough copies prior to the Crusades, including the Dead Sea Scrolls, to see what was changed and then deposit the altered ones into the "deuterocanonical section."