Abolish The Church

[Section 8]

You only want them free so you can brainwash them with Socialist ideas!

FA you have no idea how bad that was for your argument. You admitted that they weren't free under the current church system. I don't want to brainwash them, that would be very capitalist and nazi-esque. (note my using of both of them.) I merely would like them to be taught about socialism and othere ideas deemed bad and evil by the capitalists. (wonder why?) If they got a fair education the number of Socialists would double. Instead everyone teaches that Communism is lack of freedom of speech and poverty. They do this by siting countries that are not truly Communist. Also why should the church leaders teach them authority. This even more limits their will to think. Also parents should educate their children in all religions and when they are older let them choose, instead of forcing a set of beliefs upon them.

Have Fun
Shalom

[Fallen Angel]

No I don't agree with parents educating their kids on all religons, that does not make any sense at all, I'm sure most Hindu parents only teach Hinduism to their kids because that is what they would like them to be.
Islamic kids in the middle east and other parts of the world are basically taught to hate other religons particularly above all Chistianity and Judaeism.
If you educate your children on religon it should only be the faith you follow, if you are educating them about every religon, you may as well admit to being an aethiest, as they have no clear resolution on what exactly is God and why we should worship him.

[Geoff332]

I'm sure most Hindu parents only teach Hinduism to their kids because that is what they would like them to be. Islamic kids in the middle east and other parts of the world are basically taught to hate other religons particularly above all Chistianity and Judaeism.

Can you back up those claims?

[Fallen Angel]

Originally posted by Geoff332@09-29-2003 11:18 PM I'm sure most Hindu parents only teach Hinduism to their kids because that is what they would like them to be. Islamic kids in the middle east and other parts of the world are basically taught to hate other religons particularly above all Chistianity and Judaeism. Can you back up those claims?

Their not claims they are fact, I think you are referring probably too my comment On Islamic children.
I can not show any of the propaganda that is read out in Islamic schools and sold at Islamic newsagents about Christians and Jews, Great wyrm probably could if you ask him, I don't have acess to a scanner to show you the relevant material, or to be honest the know how on putting it together, I'm starting a basics in Computers soon, so I should be able to in future.

[Geoff332]

They are claims. And without evidence, they are unsubstantiated claims. Without the ability to see your evidence, to judge the accuracy of the sources and so on, they are simply what you tell us is the case.

The main point I would contest is that you are describing all Muslims on the basis of your undisclosed sources. Within Christian theology I know that some people favour teaching different things with respect to other religions. To say that "all Christian's teach this" is generally a non-sense (beyond one of two key claims that define Christianity). From conversations with other Muslims, I know that some do teach about other religions (and the doctrine of hate is certainly not part of the core teaching).

Speaking for myself, without any evidence to back-up your claim, I will basically disregard it as rhetoric. I suspect there are other people that would do the same.

[Section 8]

FA, here's an example. As you could've gathered I'm a Communist. I was taught Capitalist propaganda in schools and read about it in newspapers. Yet I turned out to be a Socialist. On your other point; for example say I was a kid and was raised Christian. Then I said wait a minute I don't believe this at all. So I ask my mom if I could practice Buddhism. Your saying she should say "Shut up, I was Christian so you should follow me, I'm your mom and therefore you must obey, because I can't teach you about other religions." This is complete bullshit if you think about it.

Have Fun
Shalom

[Fallen Angel]

I think you should respect your parents wishes why they are housing and clothing and feeding you Section 8, when you leave you have the rest of your life to do what you want.

[fedfem]

I teach my children about other religions. We even have special dinners to celebrate the holy days of other cultures. They also have the opportunity to ask questions of the followers of several different religions and sects. Although my children are young and have not decided on a path yet, they will be well informed when they do. They have Muslim friends, Buddhist friends, Christian friends, Jewish friends, Pagan friends, etc... I have more scriptures in my home than a fundamentalist. I know that if nothing else, I have contributed 3 tolerant American males to the world. If the Fibonacci system is applied there may be some hope.

[Fallen Angel]

Did you encourage them to question any of their beliefs, or just blindly accept anything.
Tolerance is a very over rated word.

[fedfem]

Originally posted by Fallen Angel@10-01-2003 05:20 AM Did you encourage them to question any of their beliefs, or just blindly accept anything. Tolerance is a very over rated word.

I think I was pretty clear; I encourage them to question. I would encourage you to do the same.

[Fallen Angel]

Don't worry I do.
Especially the Muslims.

[Section 8]

FA, it was you that posted in the your religion forum "I was born a Roman Catholic, so I will die a Roman Catholic." Doesn't exactly sound like your questioning your beliefs. Oh, and after your done stereotyping Islam to death, you should start to question your own beliefs, not someone elses.

People aren't expendable, government is
Shalom

[Fallen Angel]

Originally posted by Section 8@10-02-2003 10:15 AM FA, it was you that posted in the your religion forum "I was born a Roman Catholic, so I will die a Roman Catholic." Doesn't exactly sound like your questioning your beliefs. Oh, and after your done stereotyping Islam to death, you should start to question your own beliefs, not someone elses. People aren't expendable, government is Shalom

Please Section 8, I don't see any need to question my beliefs, hence my saying I would die a RC.
If the Pope was to announce Gay marriage was now acceptable in the RC church, then I would question my beliefs.
Sterotyping, another PC buzzword used to turn away anyone with views that another culture is bad in any way.
Sorry, but where ever there are Muslims in large numbers in the world, there is violence brought against anyone that is'nt a Muslim.
A lot of the Toran's scripture towards non muslims is hate filled.
So yes, I do question Islam as a faith, and quite sensibly too.

[Section 8]

FA, 1st only 18% percent of all muslims are Arabs.
2nd what the hell is a Toran, I think you're thinking of a Qu'ran
(have you ever read the Qu'ran by chance, it's hard to take your posts about the Qu'ran being hate filled when you can't get the name right.)
3rd when the Muslims conquered new lands they allowed Jews and Christians to continue to practice their religions. Unlike the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades.
4th Also saying that followers of all other religions will burn in hell might be considered violent.

FA, do you even know what country has the most Muslims, I doubt that you do.

P.S. next time do some research before posting

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by Fallen Angel@09-29-2003 06:23 AM Well I can give you afew examples of the Christian missionary Stanley in Africa, breaking up the Islamic slave trade in the 19thC, but if its adebate you want I'll go do some research, I can tell you one thing but if you think Christianity was the only participant in Black slavery you had better go investigate the Arabs. And do you think Christianity has much to do with the running of the modern day rackets in slavery, millions of women all over the world in Eastern Europe, Africa, asia and even the US are today, slaves. Is that Christianitys fault, or a Godless societys fault, that is only interested in one thing and that is money.

William Wilberforce, the most famous of the 19th century opponents to slavery and the reason it ended in the British Empire (it was after his death though), argued his position from a Christian platform.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by Fallen Angel@09-29-2003 11:12 PM No I don't agree with parents educating their kids on all religons, that does not make any sense at all, I'm sure most Hindu parents only teach Hinduism to their kids because that is what they would like them to be. Islamic kids in the middle east and other parts of the world are basically taught to hate other religons particularly above all Chistianity and Judaeism. If you educate your children on religon it should only be the faith you follow, if you are educating them about every religon, you may as well admit to being an aethiest, as they have no clear resolution on what exactly is God and why we should worship him.

Children are not the property of the parents, to be moulded as they see fit. The parents are responsible for bringing up their children to the best of their ability, and unless you are from some backwater community that doesn't know anything of other religions, that includes educating them on other religions and cultures.

In the city I come from, Middlesbrough, there is an area called South Bank, that is dominated by muslims, about 6000 of them. And they don't spout the crap you sguuest they do. When I went to Turkey the Muslims I met there were the friendliest people I have ever met. So don't stereotype a people purely on your Fox News education.

[Fallen Angel]

Originally posted by G. Adams+10-03-2003 06:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (G. Adams @ 10-03-2003 06:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Fallen Angel@09-29-2003 11:12 PM No I don't agree with parents educating their kids on all religons, that does not make any sense at all, I'm sure most Hindu parents only teach Hinduism to their kids because that is what they would like them to be. Islamic kids in the middle east and other parts of the world are basically taught to hate other religons particularly above all Chistianity and Judaeism. If you educate your children on religon it should only be the faith you follow, if you are educating them about every religon, you may as well admit to being an aethiest, as they have no clear resolution on what exactly is God and why we should worship him.

Children are not the property of the parents, to be moulded as they see fit. The parents are responsible for bringing up their children to the best of their ability, and unless you are from some backwater community that doesn't know anything of other religions, that includes educating them on other religions and cultures.

In the city I come from, Middlesbrough, there is an area called South Bank, that is dominated by muslims, about 6000 of them. And they don't spout the crap you sguuest they do. When I went to Turkey the Muslims I met there were the friendliest people I have ever met. So don't stereotype a people purely on your Fox News education. [/b][/quote]


Sterotyping, there we it have one of the dummest word's bleated by PC tools such as yourself ever to be widely put into use.
Children are not property as you so blandly put it, I never said they were, your saying if Parents don't educate their kids on every religon in the world, they are bad parents, your talking PC drivel now, get a tissue, and wipe your mouth.
My education on Muslims comes from alot wider sources than your Fox network, I only have to look at the way they treat other religons today, and throughout history to know they are a brutal religon.
Do you like the way they treat women G.Adams, in alot of parts in the Middle East, they rock women in the face if they see them without a veil covering the lower half of their face, I assume probably rightly you have feminist's as friends, what do they think of your acceptance of a religon that is so cruel to women.
Turkish moslems are also part of Turkey, the most western friendly moslem nation in the world, and usually co operate with western governments, rather than Middle eastern ones, I thought you would have realised that by now.
I for one would love to visit Turkey, for Gallipoli rememberance, a battle my country fought the Turks in 1915 and lost after nine months of incredible bravery and rotten decisions from English armchair generals.

[Fallen Angel]

Originally posted by Section 8@10-03-2003 12:43 AM FA, 1st only 18% percent of all muslims are Arabs. 2nd what the hell is a Toran, I think you're thinking of a Qu'ran (have you ever read the Qu'ran by chance, it's hard to take your posts about the Qu'ran being hate filled when you can't get the name right.) 3rd when the Muslims conquered new lands they allowed Jews and Christians to continue to practice their religions. Unlike the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades. 4th Also saying that followers of all other religions will burn in hell might be considered violent. FA, do you even know what country has the most Muslims, I doubt that you do. P.S. next time do some research before posting

Heres some research I have for you to read Section 8, Fedfem is advised to read as well.
enjoy:
THE ARAB CONQUESTS. In a remarkable wave of conquests, Arab and Muslim troops occupied territories extending from Spain to India. The Sassanian Empire (See 636–651) was brought to an end, and the Byzantines lost most of their possessions in the Middle East and North Africa. The conquered populations came under Muslim rule, although it took several centuries of conversion to Islam to change their religious identity. The majority of the inhabitants of the conquered Byzantine territory in Syria and Egypt remained Christian for centuries, just as the majority of those who lived in territories once controlled by the Sassanians in Iraq and Iran retained their Zoroastrian creed. 7
The conquests began as an attempt to bring all the Arab tribes of the Middle East under the control of the Islamic polity established at Medina. Their scope expanded with each success. The first expeditions against Syria were organized in Medina under the able direction of the Meccan Quraysh, an elite with great organizational and tactical skills. It is estimated that about 24,000 men were engaged in the conquest of Syria, with fewer still occupied in the later conquest of Iraq. Many of these recruits were prompted not by the new faith of Islam, but by the lure of booty and government stipends (’ata). 8
The tactics of the Arab armies included surprise and laying siege to the garrisons of opponents ill-prepared for the new invaders. Arab military success was enhanced by the relative weakness of their two major imperial opponents in the Middle East: the Byzantines and Sassanians. Throughout the 6th and 7th centuries these two great powers had fought each other in a series of wars that had left both economically and strategically vulnerable to surprise attacks from the south. Both powers had also persecuted their Monophysite and Nestorian Christian citizens as heretics, thus undermining the support of their people. 9

634–40

Conquest of Palestine and Syria. After defeating the Byzantines at Ajnadayn in southern Palestine (634), the Arabs advanced into Palestine and Syria. Damascus surrendered in 637, and Jerusalem surrendered shortly after. 10

634–44

UMAR IBN AL-KHATTAB, THE SECOND CALIPH. Umar directed the first phase of the Islamic conquests in Egypt, Syria, and Mesopotamia. To keep Arab troops separate from newly conquered populations, he ordered the creation of garrison settlements (amsar), which became the foundation of several new Islamic cities, such as Kufa and Basra in Iraq and Fustat in Egypt. Muslims entitled to salaries from the state were recorded on a list (diwan), with the earlier converts enjoying higher pay. Umar established the system of Islamic taxation by which Jews and Christians, as “People of the Book” (Ahl al-kitab), paid a special poll tax (jizya) and a land tax (kharaj), as a form of tribute in return for being allowed to practice their faith. 11

IMAGINE how it would be like when 25 million people vanish from a projected population of 39 million.
This is the story of the Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, and the ethnic minorities of Bangladesh -- a story of slow genocide, a story of violence and betrayal by their own government, a testament of hard-line Islamic politicking designed to minority cleansing, a continuing saga that has played out since 1947 to the present day Bangladesh.

In another recent incident of mass forced conversion over 1,150 Christian men and boys from the town of Bacan were forcibly circumcised and a minister tortured and killed. Elsewhere in Indonesia’s Moluccas islands over 5,000 Christians have been forced to convert to Islam and many Christian women made to marry Muslim men, thus forcing their conversion in the eyes of their Islamic extremist tormentors.

Dressed in traditional Islamic-style clothes and caps the Christians of Keswui endure a conversion ceremony in a mosque whilst Islamic warriors stand guard. One said “We agreed because we were concerned for the safety of our children”.

The horrific violence began on Tuesday 28 November when four Christian villages came under attack from Islamic extremists. Eight villagers were killed outright and over 3000 fled into the jungle to hide. However, the Islamic raiders chased them through the trees capturing the 700 Christians. Stories of indescribable terror and fear are beginning to emerge from the very few Christians who were fortunate enough to escape the island.

Chased through the jungle and surrounded by Islamic extremists, many Christians had no option but to seek refuge in nearby Muslim villages. One group was found in the jungle by local Muslims who persuaded them to come to the Muslim village of Tanah Baru for their own safety. Once there they were seized and questioned by Imams outside the mosque who told them “By the order of the Jihad, now you have come down from the woods, this means you have to embrace Islam. If you are not willing to do so, we have to separate you from the others and you will be killed.”
genocide of Hindus by Muslim invaders is without parallel. The conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000, was followed by the annihilation of the entire Hindu population there; indeed, the region is still called Hindu Kush, 'Hindu slaughter'. The Bahmani sultans in central India, made it a rule to kill 100.000 Hindus a year. In 1399, Teimur killed 100.000 Hindus in a single day. Professor K.S. Lal has estimated that the Hindu population decreased by 8O million between the year 1000 and 1525, probably the biggest holocaust in history. Surely, many of present day Indian Muslims' ancestors must have been among those slaughtered.

What are your views on Islam being such a peacefull religon now Section 8?
Maybe Parents can also start teaching their children about this too, good idea you think?
I'm well aware, because I live in Australia you silly goose that Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world, some 250 million, this may help you understand that yes I know 18% of all Muslims are Arabs, what that had to do with Islam being a religon driven by hate, besides Muhammed making Islam a force first in Arabia is anyones guess.
The Qu'ran is what I meant not Toran which I mixed up with the Torah, the first 5 books of the Old Testsment, I'll let you have that one 0K.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by Fallen Angel+10-03-2003 11:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fallen Angel @ 10-03-2003 11:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by G. Adams@10-03-2003 06:48 AM <!--QuoteBegin-Fallen Angel @09-29-2003 11:12 PM No I don't agree with parents educating their kids on all religons, that does not make any sense at all, I'm sure most Hindu parents only teach Hinduism to their kids because that is what they would like them to be. Islamic kids in the middle east and other parts of the world are basically taught to hate other religons particularly above all Chistianity and Judaeism. If you educate your children on religon it should only be the faith you follow, if you are educating them about every religon, you may as well admit to being an aethiest, as they have no clear resolution on what exactly is God and why we should worship him. Children are not the property of the parents, to be moulded as they see fit. The parents are responsible for bringing up their children to the best of their ability, and unless you are from some backwater community that doesn't know anything of other religions, that includes educating them on other religions and cultures. In the city I come from, Middlesbrough, there is an area called South Bank, that is dominated by muslims, about 6000 of them. And they don't spout the crap you sguuest they do. When I went to Turkey the Muslims I met there were the friendliest people I have ever met. So don't stereotype a people purely on your Fox News education.

Sterotyping, there we it have one of the dummest word's bleated by PC tools such as yourself ever to be widely put into use.
Children are not property as you so blandly put it, I never said they were, your saying if Parents don't educate their kids on every religon in the world, they are bad parents, your talking PC drivel now, get a tissue, and wipe your mouth.
My education on Muslims comes from alot wider sources than your Fox network, I only have to look at the way they treat other religons today, and throughout history to know they are a brutal religon.
Do you like the way they treat women G.Adams, in alot of parts in the Middle East, they rock women in the face if they see them without a veil covering the lower half of their face, I assume probably rightly you have feminist's as friends, what do they think of your acceptance of a religon that is so cruel to women.
Turkish moslems are also part of Turkey, the most western friendly moslem nation in the world, and usually co operate with western governments, rather than Middle eastern ones, I thought you would have realised that by now.
I for one would love to visit Turkey, for Gallipoli rememberance, a battle my country fought the Turks in 1915 and lost after nine months of incredible bravery and rotten decisions from English armchair generals. [/b][/quote]
Fine, you don't like the word stereotyping? Instead I'll expand it to 'you make generalisations of the people of an entire religion based upon the actions of some of its adherants'. And you certainly do that.

My education on Muslims comes from alot wider sources than your Fox network, I only have to look at the way they treat other religons today, and throughout history to know they are a brutal religon.

Just one of your many generalisations of an entire religion. So Muslims are a brutal people. Except for the Turks. And the Malaysions. And the West Africans. And the Iraqi's. And the tens of millions scattered throughout the Western World. Thats a lot of none brutal muslims.

Can you not realise that when people use the Muslim religion, or any religion in fact, as a tool of oppression against anyone, be it Jews, Women, Gays etc that it is not religious, but political? People have used and continue to use religion as a means to further their own ends, but that doesn't mean the religion itself is brutal.

[Fallen Angel]

The majority of Muslims do not speak out enough against this minor part of the Muslim world as you think of it, why is that do you think, probably because they support it, or are too cowered themselves to say anything.
Indonesia is a very large part of the Muslim world, and very anti western, Malaysia a much smaller nation, is also becoming more anti western since the East Timor Massacres.
As for your generalisations, that is just another PC buzz word for covering up anything unsightly that makes you feel uneasy, I note none of you have even tried to really question the research on Muslim aggression, I pasted in, for the last 1500 years against other religons and nations, that is still happening everywhere today..
Whether religon or politics are the main force behind Muslim aggression is irrelevant, the people that want to stay in power will use either to stay in control.