Consciousness

[dthmstr254]

I have seen a lot of threads where the topic of consciousness has popped up, but hasn't been enough in the topic range to be fully discussed. So I created this thread with a few of my own comments and questions as to what consciousness really is. Consciousness is something in the psychology realm that is not understood. it can be likened to other realms of science as well. Physics has the whole issue of matter and energy being connected in some wierd way, although they don't completely understand it, as fundamental as it is. Likewise, Consciousness is a fundamental concept that eludes fundamentally simple explanation. Psychologists and scientists can tell better what UNconsciousness is than they can tell you what conscoiusness. which leads to a perplexing question, other than being alive, what is consciousness? is it characterised by the ability to act of one's own will? maybe further than that, does one need to be able to feel emotion to truly be fully conscious? where is the line drawn in the sand (proverbially) between being conscious and unconscious? are there stages between being conscious and being unconscious? can REM sleep be considered as being conscious?
I guess I just want to see where people stand on this subject, because I don't really know the answer to these questions. well, good luck.

[tman_ndsu08]

You can't use language to express what consciousness feels like any more than you can use language to discribe color or any other qualia.

Outside observers can use machines to measure a person's brainwaves to determine if they're conscious.

[SteveA]

Yes, there seems to be a wall in our ability to understand what it is but here are some things to think about:

1) Consciousness doesn't seem to be tied to matter specifically. The atoms in your body are replaced all the time. Though consciousness might be tied to the general structure of the brain and disrupting this structure too quickly might not allow consciousness to retain a hold ... just a possibility ... like you can slowly bend some things but if you do it too rapidly, they snap.

2) I think there's a lot of evidence that consciousness is connected with the quantum "noise" we see in everything. I've read some other research along these lines and there appear to be very very fine arrays of structures inside most all living cells that could provide a mechanism, like an array of radar dishes to coherently detect quantum energies.

Something interesting is that single celled organisms can swim gracefully, eat, mate, avoid preditors and seek out food, all without the benefit of a single neuron! That's rather impressive considering humans even have a tough time doing half those activities. The interesting part is that though they lack a nervous system and are only single cells, they still contain elements of this fine array of tiny structures. The hypothesis I read was that they cold operate along the lines of a laser tuned to a specific frequency by synchronized firings along this array, so this could provide a mechanism that's "tuned" to communicate in a certain manner.

3) Free will is an interesting subject that could differ from consciousnss. Perception and action might be separate components of consciousness. I used to think the universe could repeat over time, but this has some problems - 1) if it repeated, that would mean no new information is being added to it, which would mean free will is only an illusion but I don't think free will is only an illusion not simply because it doesn't appear to be an illusion, but there was some creative force that had to at least have been present once to create the universe we currently experience and that must have always been present, and my guess is that it likely still is continuing 2) Also, life can only be experienced by changes. If things simply repeated, you could view the entire span of existance as simply a rigid crystal. There would be nothing to differentiate one moment from the next. Some new input is necessary to keep things evolving and allow changes to exist and be sensed. To me, this implies a form of "free will" outside the existance we experience that's effectively the energy source (likely limitless) driving these changes. My guess is that the expansion of the universe will prove to not be a one way trip to a cold and lifeless universe but representative of a continual growth (evidence seems to point toward a trend in this direction - everywhere we look, there's always more detail).

4) There's a lot of evidence pointing toward the brain not simply operating as a network of discrete neurons, but as having holographic traits with waves of information propogating through it being correlated with other waves passing through it.

I bring this up because there seems to be other characteristics to the universe that operate along these lines also. It's possible there's much more interconnectedness in a large number of things, including consciousness than we really understand. (Maybe "intelligent design" is the only thing that exists in the universe?)

5) Consciousness has traits that appear to be discrete and digital instead of analog and continous. Our attention jumps between things instead of smoothly glading around. There might be two states involved, possibly perception and then action.

Something not too obvious about consciousness is how it actually observes a very compressed set of information. You might look at a tree and think you're seeing all of it, all the time you're looking at it, but actually most the tree you're perceiving is more of a sense of the general tree "texture" or characteristics. Consciously the mind tends to follow specific thoughts and you really one perceive a small amount of information in any specific moment of time - though when you refocus your attention elsewhere new details are extracted, so subjectively it appears that you're able to perceive all of it at once, but that's not really true. Even people with a photographic memory don't actually perceive the entire tree, they're simply able to store it (likely physically in the brain somehow) and then later go over this image consciously and extract information from it.

I say this because l think an old analog modem probably has a higher bandwidth than our conscious perceptions. The difference is that we have incredible mental algorithms for compressing a lot of data into a small available channel of information. (If we had compression algorithms that good for a DVD, you could probably fit 100 movies on a single disk).

6) Likely a large part of what we perceive as consciousness is due to the operation of the body and the brain. Consider that probably most people think thoughts in their native language, whereas language skills are likely part of the brain. There are structures we know are associated with language ... and, I've said it before, but who would envision English or some other human language as being the language of the "soul"?

One the other hand, patterns seem to be a rather universal language. There are many things that are beautiful or aesthetic pleasing and my guess is that part of this is that consciousness enjoys extracting and processing patterns and correlations. Recognition of music is partly mental, but the enjoyment of it would seem something that's part of the conscious experience. Music tends to be very mathematical with patterns.

Quantum computers have a trait novel to all other forms of mechanical computation - they can process in parallel merged sets of data quickly and generate a probabilistic result that tends to correlate with the most likely answer for this merged set - sort of like being able to calculate many things at once, in parallel and then randomly select one of the best results. This seems to correlate well with how consciousness works. Quantum computations also occur in phases (though I've heard there's some debate over this) where you expose a quantum system to a merged set of inputs and then let it settle down to the "selected" result.

From an evolutionary point of view, if quantum computations have the expected level of computation power for some problems, then likely nature would have taken advantage of this already so it would make sense that forms of life would use this.

Also quantum properties aren't specific to any particular of matter but can be passed between them as they interact, so this could be correlated with the ability for consciousness to remain "attached" to a body, though specific atoms or matter in the body are only temporarily present and are "passed through the system" over time.

Sidenote: These quantum computations only provide an advantage for some types of computations, not all. A classical computer could likely do at least as well as a quantum computer for many types of calculations.

[SteveA]

A couple more quick comments:

Other evidence that seems to suggest consciousness isn't a physical part of any specific part of the brain is that brain damage doesn't seem to reduce the perception of consciousness - if you go blind, you're still there. You just can't perceive things the same way.

Now also consider the unconscious mind. It seems that at least personally there are biases I have that aren't really part of my conscious decision making. There may simply be trained mental responses in the brain but a more novel possibility is that consciousness has multiple hidden aspects that aren't immediately obvious. Some of the more novel possibilities are collective aspects to consciousness, or a collective unconscious aspect.

The unconscious mind might have some interesting secrets in store too.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 You can't use language to express what consciousness feels like any more than you can use language to discribe color or any other qualia. Outside observers can use machines to measure a person's brainwaves to determine if they're conscious.

true, but does the state of being alive guarantee that a person has consciousness? certainly instincts are not part of consciousness, because they run like programs on a computer, and we say that no computer has ever reached consciousness. a person who is brain-dead will still send out brain waves. I don't want to get too scientific, because this truly is a psychological and philosophical question. one question I have that stumps evolutionists is: how can consciousness rise from brute matter? how could it evolve when no such thing has ever existed prior to it? evolution has to build from the bottom on up. so where were the components of consciousness before they became the collective consciousness? hell, what are the components of consciousness?

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: SteveA A couple more quick comments: Other evidence that seems to suggest consciousness isn't a physical part of any specific part of the brain is that brain damage doesn't seem to reduce the perception of consciousness - if you go blind, you're still there. You just can't perceive things the same way. Now also consider the unconscious mind. It seems that at least personally there are biases I have that aren't really part of my conscious decision making. There may simply be trained mental responses in the brain but a more novel possibility is that consciousness has multiple hidden aspects that aren't immediately obvious. Some of the more novel possibilities are collective aspects to consciousness, or a collective unconscious aspect. The unconscious mind might have some interesting secrets in store too.

exhibit A: the REM (Rapid Eye Movement) stage of sleep.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 You can't use language to express what consciousness feels like any more than you can use language to discribe color or any other qualia. Outside observers can use machines to measure a person's brainwaves to determine if they're conscious.

Quote by: Wikipedia Red is any of a number of similar colors at the lowest frequencies of light discernible by the human eye. Red light has a wavelength range of roughly 630-760 nm.

Any other questions? :)

[luke virtual kh]

Consciousness has been explained materialistically. It's merely activity in the brain. Simple.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: luke virtual kh Consciousness has been explained materialistically. It's merely activity in the brain. Simple.

Right. I think all of the confusion over consciousness is just because we have such a high ability to think and wonder, unlike any other creature we've encountered.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: luke virtual kh Consciousness has been explained materialistically. It's merely activity in the brain. Simple.

then how come brain damage doesn't lessen consciousness? if it is activity of the brain, you remove 40% of the brain, 40% of the consciousness should be gone as well. this has never occurred. and if you want to test that, go ahead. if you go blind, you are still a person. a mentally handicapped person is no less of a person than you or I. they are as conscious as you or I. it is not that simple. the brain=consciousness theory DESTROYS free will. that would make every action we take, however random, an action of instinct, and thusw, no consciousness.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Right. I think all of the confusion over consciousness is just because we have such a high ability to think and wonder, unlike any other creature we've encountered.

and if we didn't think and wonder, we would still be in the stone age. face it, most of the scientists that are praised today were ridiculed in their day. people who thought the world was flat ridiculed the few who thought it was round. how many more people would have died if it hadn't have been for the wonderers who discovered that bleeding did not cure diseases, but instead deprived the person of the white blood cells needed to defeat the illness? I can draw a few more parallels, but dinner is about to start and I need to get to the dining hall.

[another day]

BS!...Blind people are still as conscious, but Mentally handicapped people are not even close to as conscious as you or I....They still have conscioiusness yes, but it's severely diminished, more comparable to a dog or other animal. Same with babies, they have a lower level of consciousness compared to adults because there brain has not yet developed fully. I mean, do you remember ever being consciously aware as a baby? Of course not because your level of consciousness was much lower. Consciousness and brain damage are directly related, which is why severely brain damaged people such as Terri Schiavo HAVE NO CONCIOUSNESS AT ALL. Blindness is often not the result of brain damage, which is why blind people are still fully conscious. And if it is the result of brain damage it is small and specific. Consciousness is holistic, but if you destroy 40% of the brain as you say I can guarantee that person will have a severely reduced level of consciousness. Your spewing complete falsehoods.

and if we didn't think and wonder, we would still be in the stone age. face it, most of the scientists that are praised today were ridiculed in their day. people who thought the world was flat ridiculed the few who thought it was round. how many more people would have died if it hadn't have been for the wonderers who discovered that bleeding did not cure diseases, but instead deprived the person of the white blood cells needed to defeat the illness? I can draw a few more parallels, but dinner is about to start and I need to get to the dining hall.

Exactly. Consciousness and thinking/wondering are the result of EVOLUTION, exactly as you say. They were developed to further the human race. Don't you see how everything makes complete sense? God has no place in any of this. We are simply animals who have evolved complex minds to further our race. Some animals evolve complex defense systems, some evolve complex wing structures etc. It's all evolution and adaption. And I say this because I know what you are leading to, your trying to assert that consciousness is the soul independant of the physical brain - complete crap.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: another day BS!...Blind people are still as conscious, but Mentally handicapped people are not even close to as conscious as you or I....They still have conscioiusness yes, but it's severely diminished, more comparable to a dog or other animal. Same with babies, they have a lower level of consciousness compared to adults because there brain has not yet developed fully. I mean, do you remember ever being consciously aware as a baby? Of course not because your level of consciousness was much lower. Consciousness and brain damage are directly related, which is why severely brain damaged people such as Terri Schiavo HAVE NO CONCIOUSNESS AT ALL. Blindness is often not the result of brain damage, which is why blind people are still fully conscious. And if it is the result of brain damage it is small and specific. Consciousness is holistic, but if you destroy 40% of the brain as you say I can guarantee that person will have a severely reduced level of consciousness. Your spewing complete falsehoods.

do they hear the same things we do? do they have thought processes? do they have their own opinions? do they feel emotions? by your own opinion, a person with autism who is excelling in all his classes (some of which are AP courses) is not as conscious as a dog. the result of your beliefs is a widespread discrimination against special needs students, who, given an individualized teaching method, can sometimes outdo the most intelligent people in their grade. one of my friend's dad suffered sever brain damage when he cracked his head open in a pool and chlorine water washed his brain. that was before she was born. he is now back in the work force, repairing cars and building plane, car, and semi engines. according to his doctor's report, he should have died ten years ago. now his new doctor says that he will be a valuable asset to the community. his brain was washed in the same exact way that Terri's was. I can look up several more stories of people who are brain-damaged and AS CONSCIOUS as you and I. your assumption is a lie created to make yourself feel superior to them. I am ADHD. does that mean that I am less conscious than you? I have friends that are deaf from a problem with the auditory section of their brain. are they less conscious than you? I have friends that are autistic that can solve math problems it takes the professor ten minutes to solve in a few seconds. are they less conscious than yourself oh grand king of the world? :rolleyes: hell, no we aren't.

Exactly. Consciousness and thinking/wondering are the result of EVOLUTION, exactly as you say. They were developed to further the human race. Don't you see how everything makes complete sense? God has no place in any of this. We are simply animals who have evolved complex minds to further our race. Some animals evolve complex defense systems, some evolve complex wing structures etc. It's all evolution and adaption. And I say this because I know what you are leading to, your trying to assert that consciousness is the soul independant of the physical brain - complete crap.

ok, we know what you say is true. now, since you claim it is science, PROVE IT. prove that consciousness came out of brute matter.

[Dadoo]

Both the brain and conscious experience are holographic. Any part bilinearly becomes the whole.
What is "origin"?
If a tree falls in an imaginary forest, can you make it make a sound?
Were consciousness to begin, it would involve a phenomenon and a phenomenon "sensor". One sense for the world, and the world becomes itself as it is sensed.
The experience, I'd suppose could exist with being experienced.
Is the unperceptable a part of conscious experience?

? dadoo

[SteveA]

Quote by: luke virtual kh Consciousness has been explained materialistically. It's merely activity in the brain. Simple.

Even if it is solely tied to activities in the brain, then that still means it can't be explained because we don't know a lot about how the brain actually operates and activity in the brain and consciousness aren't identical. You can train yourself over time to do things unconsciously. That's still part of brain activity but isn't consciously noticed. When you sleep and aren't dreaming, there's no conscious recollection of anything, yet activities still occur in the brain so consciousness excludes at least some forms of brain activity. There are sounds occuring all the time that we don't pay attention to, yet the nerves in the ear still pick them up.

I recognize that the brain is able to filter out unnecessary data, so we can consciously pay attention to the important parts but obviously consciousness isn't something that encompasses the entire nervous system. It's attached to elements of it. So there are likely specific features of the brain associated with consciousness but there aren't any visible strings ... so what holds your consciousness to one specific spot and what aspects of brain activity are being consciously detected?

And this still leaves the gaping hole of what connects the two together. Why are you in a specific body and not another? What physical mechanism can account for this when cells and atoms are being continually recycled through the body? There's isn't a specific spot in which consciousness resides (as far as I know). It's distributed in operation. If it's distributed, then it would seem to be a product of energy/forces which travel and radiate and have characteristics we're still exploring that aren't easily equated with our typical understanding of matter.

Consider this: If consciousness is simply part of a physical system in the brain, then where does it go when you're unconscious? When you're unconscious, the brain and all the matter it's composed of is still there ... but YOU aren't. Matter doesn't disappear, yet consciousness does. So consciousness would seem more likely associated with the properties and/or energies of matter, than the matter itself.

I guess the point is that even if consciousness is simply a product of the material world. Here are some of the things the material world has to offer:

Quantum Entanglement and Teleportation (physical properties can be shared and move between discrete units)

Bose-Einstein condensates (matter doesn't have solid edges but is blurred and even multiple atoms can under certain circumstances effectively merge into one)

Holographic/Fractal characteristics to the universe (A bit harder to explain, but the overall complexity that we see to the universe is quite likely more a product of our inability to understand how small sets of interactions evolve into complexity over time and on larger physical scales)

Also, matter and energy can be transformed between each other and most views in science seem to be heading toward simply saying everything is energy and then trying to explain how on a macroscale view we see the approximations of matter.
My guess is that even with all the possible findings of these, consciousness still lies outside the universe we know. It just seems as though we'll never likely be able to really point to something and say "that's you", though we might be able to at least understand how you communicate with the universe and find some interesting possibilities along the way.

[SteveA]

Quote by: another day BS!...Blind people are still as conscious, but Mentally handicapped people are not even close to as conscious as you or I....They still have conscioiusness yes, but it's severely diminished, more comparable to a dog or other animal. Same with babies, they have a lower level of consciousness compared to adults because there brain has not yet developed fully. I mean, do you remember ever being consciously aware as a baby? Of course not because your level of consciousness was much lower. Consciousness and brain damage are directly related, which is why severely brain damaged people such as Terri Schiavo HAVE NO CONCIOUSNESS AT ALL. Blindness is often not the result of brain damage, which is why blind people are still fully conscious. And if it is the result of brain damage it is small and specific. Consciousness is holistic, but if you destroy 40% of the brain as you say I can guarantee that person will have a severely reduced level of consciousness. Your spewing complete falsehoods.

There are two views - the view from outside and the view from inside. The view from outside would see the person as being mentally handicapped, but from inside, my assumptions are that the person would still feel conscious and though they might know their thinking faculties aren't 100% of what they were, this would simply be an impression but not consciously recognized as being any less conscious than before.

Look at it this way. People already differ mentally, yet I'm certain noone feels any less conscious because of it. The only yardstick you have to measure consciousness is yourself, so it doesn't the size, everything you experience is 100% consciousness.

From the outside we recognize if someone experiences brain damage, that they can't function as well as before but they aren't less conscious from their perspective. They might feel disoriented or groggy etc. but that's still an experience that fills up the entirety of their consciousness.

I do agree that people can be unconscious though but that's more of a state change. You're either there, or you're not - you had an experience or you didn't.

[SteveA]

Quote by: Dadoo Both the brain and conscious experience are holographic. Any part bilinearly becomes the whole. What is "origin"? If a tree falls in an imaginary forest, can you make it make a sound? Were consciousness to begin, it would involve a phenomenon and a phenomenon "sensor". One sense for the world, and the world becomes itself as it is sensed. The experience, I'd suppose could exist with being experienced. Is the unperceptable a part of conscious experience? ? dadoo

Yes, the entire universe is part of ones senses.

It's not just your eyes and brain that allow you to see, but the Sun and Moon etc.

Your body didn't grow all by itself but is a product of nature and the materials you've utilized to life. Food is as important as a brain etc. And it's interesting that quantum mechanics is seeing this relationship as an unavoidable interaction between everything. You can never isolate anything from the rest of the universe and examine as a single distinct thing in itself. It always retains characteristics passed on to it from other things and the mere that it's observed, changes it in the process to reflect that observation.

Gravity appears to operate instantly. Whether or not there's some lightspeed mechanism in which it communicates is irrelevant in that orbits only remain stable when gravity at least acts as though it operates instantly. So wave your arm for a second and realize you have just affected the entire universe.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Dadoo Both the brain and conscious experience are holographic. Any part bilinearly becomes the whole. What is "origin"? If a tree falls in an imaginary forest, can you make it make a sound? Were consciousness to begin, it would involve a phenomenon and a phenomenon "sensor". One sense for the world, and the world becomes itself as it is sensed. The experience, I'd suppose could exist with being experienced. Is the unperceptable a part of conscious experience? ? dadoo

well, many people count God as a part of conscious experience. however, none of the five senses can sense Him. many of these people are doctors in science, so the belief in God isn't limited by scientific knowledge. if the unperceptable were not a part of conscious experience, would that mean that God would not exist? we can't see, smell, hear, taste or feel Him. so He is not a perception of the five senses. does that mean that those who believe in Him have a "sixth sense."
some might explain the belief in a divine entity as a result of genetic predisposition. however, genetic predispositions only go into effect if there is something for it to act on or something to act on it. for example, a person with a genetic predisposition to become addicted to something quicker will not become an addict if he never goes to get a drink or drag on a cigarette. people don't become drunkards because they were genetically predisposed to it, otherwise there would be no such thing as free will. there has to be the choice to take that first drink. homosexuality can't be the result of a genetic predisposition because natural selection would have long ago destroyed it. natural selection works to weed out genes that will not aid in the furthering of that species. homosexuality does not further the species, because it removes the ability to reproduce. unless there was some kind of way for a human to reproduce asexually, there would be no gene for it. thus homosexuality is a mix of social influence and the choice of that person, and not a result of genetics. the genetic defense for homosexuality destroys the free will that is inherent in humans. people who support the defense point to experiments in which a scientist messed with a bunch of rats and caused them to attempt to mate homosexually. however, there has never been a documented experiment in which an animal has ever attempted homosexuality when parented by two un-screwed-around-with parents. well, that is my 25 cents. enjoy!

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Quote by: Wikipedia Red is any of a number of similar colors at the lowest frequencies of light discernible by the human eye. Red light has a wavelength range of roughly 630-760 nm. Any other questions? :)

Ah. How foolish of me.

Now all I have to do is tell a blind person that "red" is a photon having a wavelength between 630 and 760 nano meters and they'll know what it's like to see red, right?

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: dthmstr254 does the state of being alive guarantee that a person has consciousness?

I know of many people who have a pulse but are unconscious.

a person who is brain-dead will still send out brain waves.

But not all brain waves are the same.

You can tell the difference between the brain waves of someone who is conscious and someone who isn't.

one question I have that stumps evolutionists is: how can consciousness rise from brute matter? how could it evolve when no such thing has ever existed prior to it? evolution has to build from the bottom on up. so where were the components of consciousness before they became the collective consciousness? hell, what are the components of consciousness?

We don't know.

It must be that when certain proteins happen to arrange in the shape of a brain, consciousness is a product.