The Goddess

[Athena]

Quote by: Technosoul While we await her answers to the above questions (concerning the city of Athens?). As I am not sure which goddess culture is referred too in her comments. The city of Athens is well documented and I am sure a large number of books could be found on that place written by a lot of different people. They had a government that was set up pretty much along the same lines as our own here in the USA. The concepts of a true democarcy is in fact a idealistic one. Then, as now, it remains somewhat of a romantic idea who's time of perfection has never really been reached. Democracy is a work in progress and it is the dream that is so attractive to people who might have faith in its potential. As everywhere you got workers and leaders who do the thinking for most everyone else, so you end up with people who are economically not as wealthy as others. But money and materialism is perhaps not the correct standard to use to determine equality. It is possible that it has to do with respecting one another for our individualistic contrabutions (or whatever). To respect people from all walks of life the same, rather then by how much money they have. I must log off now but will continue this viewpoint later on.

May be I should go with the flow and drop the Goddess and go with democracy. How true, it is an ideal that has never been fully manifested. To achieve this ideal, people must be educated for it, same you can't have Christianity or any other religion without educated the people about it. It is so much more than respecting each other. It is what is happening to our minds as we exchange ideas. This causes a burst of intelligence. When the records of Athens were rediscovered, people thought Athenians were a race of geniuses. Our big problem with some Muslims in backwards places, is religion doesn't do to people minds what democracy does. A big problem in the US is many Christians are trying to achieve the same thing as Muslims.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Amuse Quote by: Technosoul We can have two kinds of worldly environments. In one situation we each would remain individualistic and mostly self-centered, directing our attention towards our own personal goals and needs. We would desire to get ahead of others within the ranking systems of haves and have-nots. To compete for personal status inside that ranking order of the hen pecking barnyard of co-peckers. Taking pleasure when we can boast of our upmanship - cock-a-doodle doo. Or we can put aside our individual ego and think as a collective. To think that everyone is part of that unity of oneness, and that as a unity we make sure each part that united identity is operating as well as our part of it. For example your body is one unit even it it is made up of many individual cells. Now the brain would want the big toe to work as well as the heart or the lungs, so that idealistically the body would be 100 percent healthy and not in want. As a governmental unity we would think that everyone in that united state of being is like the cells that make up the heart, lungs, toes, and all the other parts of the 'body' of people. (in religion it might be called the body of Christ). One for all and all for one was a concept that failed to work well because people could not get into the spirit of unity that is requried to manifest as healthy body politic. Because personal egos became like cancer cells within that body which was distructive to the 'all-ness' structure of unity. Comprendee comrade? I'd choose the second option but this too is self desrtuctive. This sounds like in ideal concept except that if everybody were equal there would be no evolution. The very fact that we have differences IS what allows each of us to understand ourself in relation to everyone else. As you stated, all societies eventually fade into history. As young as American society is I see it begining to fade already.

You stated that if everyone was equal there would be no evolution.

But human evolution might be a false concept. Do you think humans will evolve wings like the birds?
I doubt it. Do you think we can evolve spiritually - from ape to angel, and that we are now in the middle stages of that transformation? I doubt it. It would seem that we are masterminding a evolution in technology and by creative inventions. But those machines are not us, they represent an evolution in ideas that most likely hatch from the imagination. Mental evolution is basically creative evolution, evolution depends on that creator which is in fact our imagination (aka - revelation and insight). It comes from out of the blue and the blue is always blue no matter what you do.
Call it a god or a goddess a rose is still a rose by any name we wish to give it.

In Creek mythology those gods and goddesses represent in storytelling different personality types that could be used as role models for finding our "personality idenity". A number of PH.D people have written books on that topic. Such as the book "women who run with wolves" which is an evolution of ideas partly originated by Carl Jung.

So if a culture is founded on the importance of creativity, such as the arts, and inventing things, then it would have a better chance of progress then one based on military power and industrail greed. (my opinon) - and Athens would be a good role model as our "God Country" prototype. And as a founding father for creative democary. Keeping in mind that creativity is more of a female personality type then male.

Equality within diversity is not really a paradox, it is a workable solution. And others have written about that concept as a realistic objective.

Creativity should focus on beauty, and nature should be what we vision as that beauty, as well as the grace of a woman who is movements are in tune to the music of the universe.

Our uban cities are ugly and the do not reflect nor inspire grace nor creative thoughts that raise the consciousness up to our evolutionary protentals. So depression brings it down and out and distruction can manifest from such environmentally provoked states of mental abuse.

Idealism is seperated from reality only by human choice.

Khristimuti said " if you want world peace, you must have a radical change of mind, individually and collectively". He gave that message to the United Nations many many years ago. It is only the pride of man that desires to overshadow that right of choice, if that beam is removed form the eyes of culture then we would no longer be blinded by our stupidness.

[Amuse]

[quote=Technosoul]You stated that if everyone was equal there would be no evolution.

But human evolution might be a false concept. Do you think humans will evolve wings like the birds?
I doubt it. Do you think we can evolve spiritually - from ape to angel, and that we are now in the middle stages of that transformation? I doubt it. It would seem that we are masterminding a evolution in technology and by creative inventions. But those machines are not us, they represent an evolution in ideas that most likely hatch from the imagination. Mental evolution is basically creative evolution, evolution depends on that creator which is in fact our imagination (aka - revelation and insight). It comes from out of the blue and the blue is always blue no matter what you do.
Call it a god or a goddess a rose is still a rose by any name we wish to give it.

In Creek mythology those gods and goddesses represent in storytelling different personality types that could be used as role models for finding our "personality idenity". A number of PH.D people have written books on that topic. Such as the book "women who run with wolves" which is an evolution of ideas partly originated by Carl Jung.

So if a culture is founded on the importance of creativity, such as the arts, and inventing things, then it would have a better chance of progress then one based on military power and industrail greed. (my opinon) - and Athens would be a good role model as our "God Country" prototype. And as a founding father for creative democary. Keeping in mind that creativity is more of a female personality type then male.

Equality within diversity is not really a paradox, it is a workable solution. And others have written about that concept as a realistic objective.

Creativity should focus on beauty, and nature should be what we vision as that beauty, as well as the grace of a woman who is movements are in tune to the music of the universe.

Our uban cities are ugly and the do not reflect nor inspire grace nor creative thoughts that raise the consciousness up to our evolutionary protentals. So depression brings it down and out and distruction can manifest from such environmentally provoked states of mental abuse.

Idealism is seperated from reality only by human choice.

Khristimuti said " if you want world peace, you must have a radical change of mind, individually and collectively". He gave that message to the United Nations many many years ago. It is only the pride of man that desires to overshadow that right of choice, if that beam is removed form the eyes of culture then we would no longer be blinded by our stupidness.[/QUOTE

Well said, That clears it up for me. I very much agree about the arts and creativity. As one who has moved form the city to the country I can relate first hand to the problems of city dwelling. My views on the masculine / femanine is they are to balance each other. They are yin and yang, equal yet opposite. I don't think humans have been around long enough to evolve into anything substantial yet. I mean no offense to anyone. I just see us as still in infancy as evolution goes. Democracy is even younger and it will take a much longer learning curve to achieve the "ideal" of democracy than you or I have time left in this life time.
History is important but it tends to be romantisized sometimes by the historsizers that long for the "good ol days". In my case, I'm a woodworker and I often deal with historical review boards who insist things be done "the old fashion way" to preserve history as if the woodworker of yesteryear knew how to build something to last and did so with utmost integrity. Guess what, the guy was working for a living just as I am now and if he had a nail gun avalible don't think he wouldn't have used it! We fantasize about what it must have been like with longing but I bet if those people were alive today they would be envious. (there I go romantisizing)

[Amuse]

Quote by: Athena Let's try this again. Equal does not mean the same. We are equal under the sun. We are equal under the law. If we were on a sinking ship, we would be in equal trouble. Yet, we are all different.

Laws attempt to make people equal meaning that without laws people are not equal. Laws are passed by a select few and most of the time without public consensus to control certain individuals or groups. People are not treated equal under the law. That is a falicy perpetrated by the very people making the laws. Porhabition is a very good example of how one group (religious) decided to legislate how the rest should live according to their godly convictions.
We are equal under the sun but laws don't equal equality, laws equal division.

[Technosoul]

I think we created man made laws because we surely cannot depend upon God to insure that everyone is born with quality rights. Example: If a mother wanted to toss her infant away in a trash can God would not send down a guardian angel to prevent it in order to insure it has the right to life, and the pursuit of happyness. Unless someone passing by should discover the infant in time to save it, it would die. Because we cannot trust the gods to show compassion and we cannot trust all mothers to do the same, we make laws to state that such things are unlawful and punishable.

If a infant is born missing one leg it would not have the equal advantages of a two legged kid. That truth is even more self evident then the Consitution (which requires expert interpretations).

Yet we know in our hearts of hearts that equality is important, yearned for, and desired as a potential manifestation of human intelligence. To call it romantic is not much of a disagreement because who would not also desire a little romance in their life?

Equality is a sense of fairness. A sense of security also, for example a infiant would like to feel secure that it has a breast to fed upon when hunger occurs. It is might be true that some poor folks believe that Uncle Sam has tits. Should we expect Uncle Sam to spend money so we can have security from terrorism but not for security from hunger? Hmmm?

Martin King Jr had a dream. That is the point of equality. We can vision it. Why can our human intellect envison something if that vision has absolutly no purpose for us? What is the point of knowing what is right if we cannot put it into pratical useage. How come such visonary ideals cannot be user friendly?

Here is a anology for you men, if you looked at a Playboy publication and saw the playmate of the month and those big "you know whats" - would you not want those as part of your reality? Okay, a romanic dream eh? Fantasy eh? Yet, you know Miss perfect is out there and likewise we know that equality is out there, for someone. But not for you.... hey, whats up with that?

So is equality just a big tease? Not so for the rich man you might think, but only for the poor guys.
A poor boy dreaming about a rich mans girl. Sort of like a poor boy fighting a rich mans war.

Now I am not sure where I am going with this random viewpoint, I might be getting a bit confused my self.

Equality seems now to have something to do with the "right to feel motivated" because you have a fair chance as anyone else to become rich so that you can feel secure and so you can even join the playboy club. Something like that? If we feel that we do not have a fair and equal chance then we feel our rights have been blocked.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: Athena May be I should go with the flow and drop the Goddess and go with democracy. How true, it is an ideal that has never been fully manifested. To achieve this ideal, people must be educated for it, same you can't have Christianity or any other religion without educated the people about it. It is so much more than respecting each other. It is what is happening to our minds as we exchange ideas. This causes a burst of intelligence. When the records of Athens were rediscovered, people thought Athenians were a race of geniuses. Our big problem with some Muslims in backwards places, is religion doesn't do to people minds what democracy does. A big problem in the US is many Christians are trying to achieve the same thing as Muslims.

"To achieve this ideal, people must be educated for it" & "It is so much more than respecting each other. It is what is happening to our minds as we exchange ideas. "

Athena I fully endorse these (albeit edited out of context) views. We need to educate respect of self and respect for others. With the ability to debate argue and attempt levels of understanding. Recognising the evolution of thought with the influx of ideas and information and being prepared to be fluid in our views.

[Amuse]

Quote by: Technosoul I think we created man made laws because we surely cannot depend upon God to insure that everyone is born with quality rights. Example: If a mother wanted to toss her infant away in a trash can God would not send down a guardian angel to prevent it in order to insure it has the right to life, and the pursuit of happyness. Unless someone passing by should discover the infant in time to save it, it would die. Because we cannot trust the gods to show compassion and we cannot trust all mothers to do the same, we make laws to state that such things are unlawful and punishable. If a infant is born missing one leg it would not have the equal advantages of a two legged kid. That truth is even more self evident then the Consitution (which requires expert interpretations). Yet we know in our hearts of hearts that equality is important, yearned for, and desired as a potential manifestation of human intelligence. To call it romantic is not much of a disagreement because who would not also desire a little romance in their life? Equality is a sense of fairness. A sense of security also, for example a infiant would like to feel secure that it has a breast to fed upon when hunger occurs. It is might be true that some poor folks believe that Uncle Sam has tits. Should we expect Uncle Sam to spend money so we can have security from terrorism but not for security from hunger? Hmmm? Martin King Jr had a dream. That is the point of equality. We can vision it. Why can our human intellect envison something if that vision has absolutly no purpose for us? What is the point of knowing what is right if we cannot put it into pratical useage. How come such visonary ideals cannot be user friendly? Here is a anology for you men, if you looked at a Playboy publication and saw the playmate of the month and those big "you know whats" - would you not want those as part of your reality? Okay, a romanic dream eh? Fantasy eh? Yet, you know Miss perfect is out there and likewise we know that equality is out there, for someone. But not for you.... hey, whats up with that? So is equality just a big tease? Not so for the rich man you might think, but only for the poor guys. A poor boy dreaming about a rich mans girl. Sort of like a poor boy fighting a rich mans war. Now I am not sure where I am going with this random viewpoint, I might be getting a bit confused my self. Equality seems now to have something to do with the "right to feel motivated" because you have a fair chance as anyone else to become rich so that you can feel secure and so you can even join the playboy club. Something like that? If we feel that we do not have a fair and equal chance then we feel our rights have been blocked.

The whole idea of inequality is a state of mind. If a person feels they lack something, be it money, education, real estate, food or Playboy girl with big... and observes another with the desired objects then the feeling of envy brings about low esteem. At this point lacking person has a choice to blame somebody else for holding them back, keeping them surpressed or what ever, or they can say to themselves "I deserve that and I'm going to make it happen and quit waiting for someone else to do it for me"! No one can take your power away unless you give it to them. We all get tired of the hustle once in awhile and it feels like we are being overwhelmed by the other rats out there but in the end each of use is responsible for ourselves. NOW GET OUT THERE TEAM AND WIN!!!!

[Athena]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel "To achieve this ideal, people must be educated for it" & "It is so much more than respecting each other. It is what is happening to our minds as we exchange ideas. " Athena I fully endorse these (albeit edited out of context) views. We need to educate respect of self and respect for others. With the ability to debate argue and attempt levels of understanding. Recognising the evolution of thought with the influx of ideas and information and being prepared to be fluid in our views.

Thank you for acknowledging the most important reason I argue for democracy- what it does to our minds, and then in turn, how our minds evolve our civilization. Religions do not have the same effect on our thinking, and therefore tend to hold people back, instead of help them adjust to the present and future.

[Athena]

The argument on equality is disappointing. We are all equal under the sun. Why is there argument about equality? Think of a perfect mother who loves all her children equally. Those children can be very different, but they are equal.

Especially statements that suggest equality or inequality is about money are disappointing. Money is not the only desirable thing in life. Mostly women are working for low wages because they find their work meaningful. They are not inferior, only their wages are inferior.

And about evolution- if you google "humans still evolving", you will find explanations of why it is believed we are still evolving.