Knowledge

[zynner]

Inspired by the FSM thread, and at Amuse's suggestion, this is a thread on the nature of knowledge. What is it, how do we know that we know, etc. It is the realm of Epistemology (study of knowledge) within philosophy. I think it is the misunderstood branch of philosophy and this misunderstanding, more than anything else, is the reason so many people disagree about so many things in the world. Quite a statement, huh?

Let's start by asking one simple question:

What is "reality?"

~ zynner

[Kite]

The simple answer is that it's the world around us, the world we live and die in. It is basically everything if you are looking with a broad perspective. However, upon closer inspection, you will find that there are many sub-realities that our mind can preceive. The internet, for example, could be considered an alternate reality. A place where one can be totally anonymous but at the same time have a persona nothing like their actual self.

[Athena]

Robin Williams said reality is an interesting concept.

Many people have reality confused with truth.

The ancient Greeks determined that truth is that which does not change. Such as the laws of math and physics do not change, but our understanding of the laws can change.
Clearly to know truth, we must study math and science. However, they also said, that which we observe changes, and also our perceptions change, therefore, truth is not what we observe. The only way we can come to truth is though discussion until we have agreement on the best reasoning, and even then we must question our truths, because a new finding can dramatically change our understanding of truth. While there may be absolute truths, we can not be absolutely sure we know them.

Back to the concept of reality, that is culturally defined. We must practice awareness of this. Those or us brought up in Christian dominated countries will naturally understand the Christian point of view, but not the Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim point of view, and visa versa. It is so easy to have war, when people do not understand what their cultures have to do with their perception of reality, and therefore, their perception of others.

[tman_ndsu08]

Perception creates reality.

[Quismo]

And when our perceptions change so does our reality. Thus creating a conflict within those who are apt toward perceptual stability. This is where, I believe, intolerence is born: the inherent nature of some to be less susceptible toward societal changes i.e. slavery, rascism, homophobia, male and female roles, etc.... The timeline of our reactions to these changes in reality closely follows:

Denial ----> Anger ----> Bargaining ----> Depression ----> Exploration ----> Acceptance

[zynner]

Hey, guys, don't be dancing around the question or going off on tangents.

The question is simple: What is reality? Define the word.

Kite said, "It is basically everything" (the world around us). Anybody disagree with that?

~ zynner

[Amuse]

Thanks zynner for starting this new thread.

Reality from a scientific view is any phenom which can be tested any number of times by seperate persons or groups and still come up with repeatable results, can be explained mathmaticly and follows known laws of physics.
Its more than the world around us. I would also include the known universe.
Now if you start adding things like perception, individual knowledge/ understanding and emotion then reality gets harder to define.

[Amuse]

I'd like to add: Reality is irrelevant if know one is around to experience it.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: zynner Hey, guys, don't be dancing around the question or going off on tangents. The question is simple: What is reality? Define the word. Kite said, "It is basically everything" (the world around us). Anybody disagree with that? ~ zynner

Reality is your perception of what your senses are sensing.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Reality is your perception of what your senses are sensing.

In that definition, reality would be in respect to only one human mind. It definitely fits, but I wonder if one could be applied outside the mind and can be "proven" to fit everyone, such as my reality being the same as your reality. We can't trust our senses all the time, and who knows what we haven't uncovered about what we don't know, since we don't know yet.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Amuse I'd like to add: Reality is irrelevant if know one is around to experience it.

In that case reality would really be everything I suppose, since no other thoughts exist to misinterpret what reality is really presenting.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 We can't trust our senses all the time

You can't trust your senses all of the time.

There's no point in trying to discover some objective truth that all people perceive because you can't even prove if what you're perceiving is true.

It could be some demon playing a trick on you.

[Jack]

Perception is tied to our understanding of reality.
A dog's opinion of the reality of scents would be vastly different than a human's.
A blind person's reality is different, too.
How we perceive physical reality is dependent on our ability to perceive it.

Or are we discussing a reality beyond physical reality?

As to knowledge, my own take has always been knowledge is the accumulation of data. Wisdom is the use you make of that data.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

knowledge is more like the famiriality with the laws of physics. the older an animal the more acquainted it is with the way things react and cause and effect and all that. Like would "knowledge" be the knowledge of building a boat? well it has to be a tried and true philosophy and way of doing things. People had to experiment with how things floated on water first. But is knowledge really power? It is more like the ability to apply this knowledge efficiently.

[LetThereBe]

Reality is meaningless without a reference point. For most of humanity, the reference point is the mind, an internal force that has no choice but to perceive through five, very limited, senses. In order to express reality to others, we are forced to assume that they perceive in the same manner we do, and draw the same conclusions about the data their senses take in. Thus we could not know reality to be constant

The appeal of the God concept is that it allows a reality that exists independant of the human mind. God, being a constant, absolute, and infinite reference point, would allow reality to transcend any single human being. It takes reality beyond the individual.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

So you mean God has a sort of objective view of your reality since your father probably saw you growing up? So your own subjective reality is only a collection of experiences held together by a corporal integrity of your membranes?

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 You can't trust your senses all of the time. There's no point in trying to discover some objective truth that all people perceive because you can't even prove if what you're perceiving is true. It could be some demon playing a trick on you.

Right, but it's always useful to find a vast majority.

Technically, there is no such thing as color, only the concept exists really; everything is in shades of black and white, or the absense and presence of light. So there definitely no proof, but for organization I think it's safe to assume the average human sees colors a specific way.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: LetThereBe It takes reality beyond the individual.

That's called the unreal, that is, when you go beyond what the human mind percieves, unless you'd like to prove me wrong...

Irrational concepts like God have little use in objective agreements over the definition of reality, what we've figured to be the perception through senses. Limited? Yes. Trustworthy? Usually. Since you can't trust your brain to percieve objects like you said, why should you trust it to go beyond what you can even know? Knowledge is about what we know, how we can measure it, and how we can figure out reality for ourselves, to say the least. There is no "beyond."

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Right, but it's always useful to find a vast majority.

Yes.

Without a useful convention for what we think ought to be correct, communication is pointless.

Technically, there is no such thing as color, only the concept exists really;

Look up "qualia".

everything is in shades of black and white, or the absense and presence of light.

No. Our eyes sense red, green, and blue wavelengths of light. Combinations produce all other colors, white is everything, and black is nothing.

So there definitely no proof, but for organization I think it's safe to assume the average human sees colors a specific way.

Yes.

This is useful.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Athena Robin Williams said reality is an interesting concept. Many people have reality confused with truth. The ancient Greeks determined that truth is that which does not change. Such as the laws of math and physics do not change, but our understanding of the laws can change. Clearly to know truth, we must study math and science. However, they also said, that which we observe changes, and also our perceptions change, therefore, truth is not what we observe. The only way we can come to truth is though discussion until we have agreement on the best reasoning, and even then we must question our truths, because a new finding can dramatically change our understanding of truth. While there may be absolute truths, we can not be absolutely sure we know them.

I would add that causality also does not change.

What you say about our being unable to know absolute truths with absolute certainty is the basis for the scientific method, which is all about uncertainty. Yet this implication is oftentimes counterintuitive, since people have an innate desire for security and certainty in their lives.

This uncertainty applies to causality as well. The reason why people can often interpret a chain of events differently is because no one can take the entire chain of causality into account. For one thing, that chain, taken to its logical conclusion, extends all the way back to the beginning of the universe; for another, the chain encompasses more variables and more information than any one (or, perhaps, million) human mind can account for.

- Rob