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Mozart1220 · Apr 14, 2004, 05:40 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (commonsense,)
Anyone who values "education" a "national priority" should be advocating the immediate dissolution of public education as we know it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No, I say let's get it back the way it was when it WORKED. No ACLU. Teachers allowed to teach. Teachers allowed to discipline students. Any student not making the grade at the end of the year held back. And hold parents responsible for children's behavior.

And get rid of the damned Pledge of Allegiance. It's a distraction teachers don't need, and the founders of this country never heard of it anyway.

Mozart1220 · Apr 14, 2004, 05:41 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
decades of defense cuts, intelligence cuts, walls between intelligence agencies...

if the shoe fits...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

$300 toilet seats, officers homes remodeled at taxpayers expense...nice shoes there...

commonsense · Apr 14, 2004, 08:29 pm

I agree Mozart, in spirit.
Its just the era we need to define:

I say bring back Miss Crabtree!

Times tables by rote.... Recitation of literature... Penmanship!!!!

Remember....
All this clamor for "technology" in the classroom is a smokescreen for a power-grab at never-to-be-sufficent funds and an excuse for incompetent young teachers who know all about invented "causes" like deforestation and global warming but who are barely literate and have spent the last 20 of their 22 years with their ears glued to the headphones of a Sony walkman....

Remember...
The world's most monumental structures, still standing and still beguiling us today had their plans scratched out in the sand with a stick....without even benefit of a numerical system with an expression for zero....
That mankind's grandest and most abstract concepts and mathematical as well as philosophical ideas were invented, conveyed and subsequently taught to eager minds.... with merely chalk and blackboard!!!
What does it really cost to pay a dedicated, capable teacher what he's well worth?
A fraction of what our present system sucks and bleeds out of working parents who in turn, toil to feed in the form of taxes, with only an illiterate, emotionally-starved imbecilic slut to show for in return!
The american taxpayer is being suckered, once again.
Thanks Jimmy Carter! In these scant few decades, the cabinet position (and the funnelling vortex of tax dollars it represents)
U.S. Dept of Education has become as sancrosanct as a cow is in India.... only worth a whole lot less.

commonsense · Apr 14, 2004, 08:32 pm

Oh, sorry Suburbanite, to keep on topic:

I don't have a bias. I have experience and observation.

Mozart1220 · Apr 14, 2004, 09:20 pm

My best friend is a Math teacher. He spends upwords of $300 of his own money for school supplies like constuction paper, pens, and math games that keep his students interested. You can't teach the "MTV" generation with stone knives and bearskins. Sad but true. He makes decent money but the janitor in his school makes more. That's part of the tragedy. Kids in grade school are REQUIRED to have calcualtors! And just TRY holding your kid back a grade if he's not cutting it. The ACLU will have you up for "ruining his self-esteem"!!
Some schools are considering doing away with grades completely because they are "not fair". Standardised testing is being called racist of all things! (As if saying black kids can't pass because they aren't smart enough isn't).

The Republicans have a point that public education cost to value ratio is way off. Why then do they funnel tax dollars into private schools via vouchers? Won't that just make private schools "public" schools? Won't that allow the ACLU to tell the private schools what they can and can't teach?

I know I sound paranoid, but the Republicans have been undermining the American education system every chance they get.(I truly believe it's because an educated public is harder to fool and control. Didn't Newt Gingrich call intellectuals "public enemy number one"?) Kill JTPA, kill or lower grants, make it harder to get student loans, ridicule and kill Bill Clinton's program where high school grads do public service to earn college tuition (I don't remember what it's called). And that's just the government Republicans. Republican citizens act like tax dollars paying for education is a "handout" and should be stopped. ("I put myself through school shoveling manure with a plastic spoon 23 hours a day and still had time to get my PHD at Harvard")

We should make education of EVERY citizen of this country a national priority. These kids are going to be running this country some day! They need an education. Computers are the wave of not only the future, but the presant as well. Schools need to have the resourses to educate kids about them. (Had I known computers would be so popular, I'd have at least taken typing!)

It's a fact that we are going to be taxed no matter who's in charge, I'd rather have MY taxes go to education than bombs and rockets. Ignorance leads to fear. Knowledge leads to understanding. Maybe if we had some people smart enough to SOLVE the problems (and maybe avoid new ones along the way) we wouldn't NEED bombs and rockets. Maybe if our kids were educated about their bodies and how to use birth control, we wouldn't NEED abortions. Maybe if people were better educated they would be better able to adapt to a rapidly changing world, and there wouldn't be so much unemployment.

Just a thought. Maybe I'm nuts. Maybe only the wealthy should be allowed an education. Keep the rich rich and the poor poor, That's always worked in the past right?

Mozart1220 · Apr 14, 2004, 09:25 pm

Oh yeah, and what is it about Republicans ALWAYS blaming the Democrats for their mistakes. Bill Clinton didn't cause the Trade center Bombings, and Jimmy carter didn't ruin the public education system. The Bush family was in charge for both WTC bombings, and Reagan, and the Bush's cut education funding.

commonsense · Apr 14, 2004, 09:34 pm

Harvard, huh?

It seems you're confusing "becoming educated" with "being schooled"

Mozart1220 · Apr 15, 2004, 07:20 am

By "educated" I mean learning the TRUTH about how our bodies work, how the world works, basic skills like math, reading, and science AND making sure kids pass the grade level they are in BEFORE moving to the next.
I also notice that Republican's who complain about the "liberal bias" of our collages, don't complain much about the armed forces recruiters and ROTC programs all over college campuses.

And the "Harvard" refence was a satirical example, if that's the only thing you got from my post, why bother replying?

commonsense · Apr 15, 2004, 11:38 am

You still cannot see the difference between being "educated" and being "schooled".

Someone please try to explain it to him.

tusaki · Apr 15, 2004, 12:30 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mozart1220,)
Oh yeah, and what is it about Republicans ALWAYS blaming the Democrats for their mistakes. Bill Clinton didn't cause the Trade center Bombings, and Jimmy carter didn't ruin the public education system. The Bush family was in charge for both WTC bombings, and Reagan, and the Bush's cut education funding.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No, no, no.. you should consider how convenient this is. Whenever there is a democratic president in charge, you can just blame the previous republican government. And whenever something good happens, you can claim it was your democratic policies which made it possible. Easy, non? This happens here (in the Netherlands) too, the current coalition government says it will 'clear up' everything which went 'wrong' before them. And of course, some of it might -shock- even be true, it's just that party freaks have the tendency to overstretch themselves and claim ALL good came from them while blaming ALL the worlds wrongs on the opposition. It's really fun, and since some seem to better at it than others, you could even make a sport of it.

Mozart1220 · Apr 15, 2004, 05:23 pm

The only problem is, it's the other way around here. The Republicans are now trying to blame Bill Clinton for the World Trade Center, which probably couldn't have been prevented by ANY president.
President Bush, while not directly responsible, should shoulder the responsibility as in:

"I was the president, and it happened on my watch. I take responsibility, not for the action itself, but to bring the perpetrators to justice".

As it happens he's done neither. He's blaming the past president, and he's gone to war in a country that had nothing to do with the bombing.

THAT is my problem with the way Bush has handled the WTC disaster. Billions spent and hundreds of American lives lost to bring in Sadaam Hussein, while the mastermind behind the bombing is still at large, and remains a lesser priority than Bush's personal vendetta in Iraq.

castille · Apr 16, 2004, 09:13 am

I'm biased in my favour.

Everyone is biased. Those who say they are not biased, are perhaps the most biased of all people.

**Sean** · Apr 16, 2004, 02:17 pm

Your biased in your favor?...what

Suburbanite · Apr 18, 2004, 06:30 am

He is a greedy pragmatist, he posted a whole topic on it.

Impenitent · Apr 18, 2004, 09:30 am

he is an admitted ego centrist as am I... everyone is, they just don't admit it because it destroys their hopes for utopia...

imperialprincess · Apr 21, 2004, 07:00 pm

Why do you aggressively defend a certain political party?/Ideology

This is such a hard question for me to answer. Do I "aggressively" defend a political party? I probably wind up doing that but I don't intend to or start out that way. (Usually I vote with the Democrats (I am realist--this is a two party system. But I like Jessie Ventura and the liberal on civil rights but conservative on financial stuff parties the best--but I won't support them if I don't think they can win or if it means the Repubs get elected by default.) Do I aggressively defend an ideology? Maybe, but I think it is pretty much my own. (Although I sorta like the ideology set out by computer hackers about consensus and individual freedom without governments or corporations or organizations, I just don't think it is "doable".)

If you mean more what is my guiding philosophy? here goes:

I want to live my life in a way that I think is the best for all concerned and that is spiritually, morally and ethically the best I can make it. I want to live in a country whose laws and system of government best reflects that. I think the ideals that are set out by the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution are a wonderful starting place and I am glad that I am an American (I don't have to try to move to a "better country"). I think we have learned some ways to improve that system that have not been tried, i.e. ranked voting, consensus building, using technology and the Internet. I hope we get to try them to see if we can fix want has gone wrong in our country. I think there is great number of things in our country that need fixing. I could probably say this a little better if I weren't in the middle of dinner and homework but you get my drift.

 Policy wise, what is this party doing that you agree with

In rough order of importance:
1-looking for a realistic exit plan for Iraq and turning over the nation building to the UN while maintaining (or rather regaining order),
2- reducing, then eliminating the deficit and most of the national debt
These are less important than the first two:
-fixing and financing education
-reforming our sick care system to a "healthcare" one
-figuring out how to help people get along with their neighbors across the world (best security)
-securing nuclear stuff all around the world
-protecting my civil liberties from further erosion
- doing tax cuts in a sane way (lower them the for the poorest first and the wealthiest last),
- trying to treat people from all walks of life fairly before the law,
- reforming the system (campaign finance, lobbying, etc.)
-protecting the biosphere for human life
-feeding, clothing and sheltering those without it
 Historically, what has this party done that you agree with
Of course that all depends on how far one goes back doesn't it? In the last fifty years I'd say it (the Democratic Party) has been traveling in a better direction than the Repubs on most things except, Vietnam and spending control.
 What is this party doing that you don't agree with?
Needs more independence from labor unions and teacher unions. Not serious enough about minorities and women (still an old white, christian male party) Not willing to find a way to reform the social safety net (SS, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) before it bankrupts the country while not abandoning the most needy among us. So far- I don't like any of the Republican proposals to fix this stuff either. In fact their solutions are worse than the problems!

Mozart1220 · Apr 21, 2004, 08:34 pm

The only part that really scares me is the "I won't support them if I don't think they can win" part. I used to be on talk radio (KTKK Salt Lake City, AM 630) and I always hated to hear people say "I would have voted for him, but I didn't think he could win and I didn't want to waste my vote".
Voting for the "loser" if he's the guy you liked best is NOT wasting your vote! I voted Perot twice. I always felt that of more people voted their conciaence and not for the "guy they thought would win" he might have had a shot. Or he may have GOTTEN shot, who knows? He wanted to change too many things for the better.
I'll probably vote Libertarian this year, just to give them more support. either way, Bush has GOT TO GO!!!

samsara15 · Apr 22, 2004, 10:08 pm

I am a liberal. Because I find liberal values is what I think of as logical and beneficial to all. Do I compromise those values? Yes, on occassion. Nothing is absolute. Which is Not a value, but a statement of fact, in human affairs. I muddle along, in other words. I distrust and even dislike those who view the world in terms of absolutes.

castille · Apr 24, 2004, 08:05 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Sean,
Your biased in your favor?...what

Well most political ideologies don't give a damn about their people (when was the last time the Kremlin took note of peoples complaints?), so I don't join up with any ideology.

"Better to be a live freelancer than a dead fanatic."

Sandy · Apr 25, 2004, 07:10 pm

I am biased in favor of a limited government with more individual liberties and personal responsibilities! I used to have a political party but the neo cons took it over and I am out in the cold. I will go with the LP this year as I did for the last several elections.

Kerry? No!
Bush? No!
Any Libertarian? Hell Yes!!!

Apr 14, 2004, 05:40 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
Mozart1220 Igneous Magma Posts: 687	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (commonsense,) Anyone who values "education" a "national priority" should be advocating the immediate dissolution of public education as we know it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No, I say let's get it back the way it was when it WORKED. No ACLU. Teachers allowed to teach. Teachers allowed to discipline students. Any student not making the grade at the end of the year held back. And hold parents responsible for children's behavior. And get rid of the damned Pledge of Allegiance. It's a distraction teachers don't need, and the founders of this country never heard of it anyway. Big Jr is watching you!

Apr 14, 2004, 05:41 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
Mozart1220 Igneous Magma Posts: 687	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) decades of defense cuts, intelligence cuts, walls between intelligence agencies... if the shoe fits...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> $300 toilet seats, officers homes remodeled at taxpayers expense...nice shoes there... Big Jr is watching you!

Apr 14, 2004, 08:29 pm	#23 (permalink) (top)
commonsense Igneous Magma Posts: 335	I agree Mozart, in spirit. Its just the era we need to define: I say bring back Miss Crabtree! Times tables by rote.... Recitation of literature... Penmanship!!!! Remember.... All this clamor for "technology" in the classroom is a smokescreen for a power-grab at never-to-be-sufficent funds and an excuse for incompetent young teachers who know all about invented "causes" like deforestation and global warming but who are barely literate and have spent the last 20 of their 22 years with their ears glued to the headphones of a Sony walkman.... Remember... The world's most monumental structures, still standing and still beguiling us today had their plans scratched out in the sand with a stick....without even benefit of a numerical system with an expression for zero.... That mankind's grandest and most abstract concepts and mathematical as well as philosophical ideas were invented, conveyed and subsequently taught to eager minds.... with merely chalk and blackboard!!! What does it really cost to pay a dedicated, capable teacher what he's well worth? A fraction of what our present system sucks and bleeds out of working parents who in turn, toil to feed in the form of taxes, with only an illiterate, emotionally-starved imbecilic slut to show for in return! The american taxpayer is being suckered, once again. Thanks Jimmy Carter! In these scant few decades, the cabinet position (and the funnelling vortex of tax dollars it represents) U.S. Dept of Education has become as sancrosanct as a cow is in India.... only worth a whole lot less. The Porcupine is a great symbol. READ THOMAS PAINE, "RIGHTS OF MAN" TO A KID

Apr 14, 2004, 08:32 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
commonsense Igneous Magma Posts: 335	Oh, sorry Suburbanite, to keep on topic: I don't have a bias. I have experience and observation. The Porcupine is a great symbol. READ THOMAS PAINE, "RIGHTS OF MAN" TO A KID

Apr 14, 2004, 09:20 pm	#25 (permalink) (top)
Mozart1220 Igneous Magma Posts: 687	My best friend is a Math teacher. He spends upwords of $300 of his own money for school supplies like constuction paper, pens, and math games that keep his students interested. You can't teach the "MTV" generation with stone knives and bearskins. Sad but true. He makes decent money but the janitor in his school makes more. That's part of the tragedy. Kids in grade school are REQUIRED to have calcualtors! And just TRY holding your kid back a grade if he's not cutting it. The ACLU will have you up for "ruining his self-esteem"!! Some schools are considering doing away with grades completely because they are "not fair". Standardised testing is being called racist of all things! (As if saying black kids can't pass because they aren't smart enough isn't). The Republicans have a point that public education cost to value ratio is way off. Why then do they funnel tax dollars into private schools via vouchers? Won't that just make private schools "public" schools? Won't that allow the ACLU to tell the private schools what they can and can't teach? I know I sound paranoid, but the Republicans have been undermining the American education system every chance they get.(I truly believe it's because an educated public is harder to fool and control. Didn't Newt Gingrich call intellectuals "public enemy number one"?) Kill JTPA, kill or lower grants, make it harder to get student loans, ridicule and kill Bill Clinton's program where high school grads do public service to earn college tuition (I don't remember what it's called). And that's just the government Republicans. Republican citizens act like tax dollars paying for education is a "handout" and should be stopped. ("I put myself through school shoveling manure with a plastic spoon 23 hours a day and still had time to get my PHD at Harvard") We should make education of EVERY citizen of this country a national priority. These kids are going to be running this country some day! They need an education. Computers are the wave of not only the future, but the presant as well. Schools need to have the resourses to educate kids about them. (Had I known computers would be so popular, I'd have at least taken typing!) It's a fact that we are going to be taxed no matter who's in charge, I'd rather have MY taxes go to education than bombs and rockets. Ignorance leads to fear. Knowledge leads to understanding. Maybe if we had some people smart enough to SOLVE the problems (and maybe avoid new ones along the way) we wouldn't NEED bombs and rockets. Maybe if our kids were educated about their bodies and how to use birth control, we wouldn't NEED abortions. Maybe if people were better educated they would be better able to adapt to a rapidly changing world, and there wouldn't be so much unemployment. Just a thought. Maybe I'm nuts. Maybe only the wealthy should be allowed an education. Keep the rich rich and the poor poor, That's always worked in the past right? Big Jr is watching you!

Apr 14, 2004, 09:25 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
Mozart1220 Igneous Magma Posts: 687	Oh yeah, and what is it about Republicans ALWAYS blaming the Democrats for their mistakes. Bill Clinton didn't cause the Trade center Bombings, and Jimmy carter didn't ruin the public education system. The Bush family was in charge for both WTC bombings, and Reagan, and the Bush's cut education funding. Big Jr is watching you!

Apr 14, 2004, 09:34 pm	#27 (permalink) (top)
commonsense Igneous Magma Posts: 335	Harvard, huh? It seems you're confusing "becoming educated" with "being schooled" The Porcupine is a great symbol. READ THOMAS PAINE, "RIGHTS OF MAN" TO A KID

Apr 15, 2004, 07:20 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
Mozart1220 Igneous Magma Posts: 687	By "educated" I mean learning the TRUTH about how our bodies work, how the world works, basic skills like math, reading, and science AND making sure kids pass the grade level they are in BEFORE moving to the next. I also notice that Republican's who complain about the "liberal bias" of our collages, don't complain much about the armed forces recruiters and ROTC programs all over college campuses. And the "Harvard" refence was a satirical example, if that's the only thing you got from my post, why bother replying? Big Jr is watching you!

Apr 15, 2004, 11:38 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
commonsense Igneous Magma Posts: 335	You still cannot see the difference between being "educated" and being "schooled". Someone please try to explain it to him. The Porcupine is a great symbol. READ THOMAS PAINE, "RIGHTS OF MAN" TO A KID

Apr 15, 2004, 12:30 pm	#30 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mozart1220,) Oh yeah, and what is it about Republicans ALWAYS blaming the Democrats for their mistakes. Bill Clinton didn't cause the Trade center Bombings, and Jimmy carter didn't ruin the public education system. The Bush family was in charge for both WTC bombings, and Reagan, and the Bush's cut education funding.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No, no, no.. you should consider how convenient this is. Whenever there is a democratic president in charge, you can just blame the previous republican government. And whenever something good happens, you can claim it was your democratic policies which made it possible. Easy, non? This happens here (in the Netherlands) too, the current coalition government says it will 'clear up' everything which went 'wrong' before them. And of course, some of it might -shock- even be true, it's just that party freaks have the tendency to overstretch themselves and claim ALL good came from them while blaming ALL the worlds wrongs on the opposition. It's really fun, and since some seem to better at it than others, you could even make a sport of it. Hope & Dream

Apr 15, 2004, 05:23 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
Mozart1220 Igneous Magma Posts: 687	The only problem is, it's the other way around here. The Republicans are now trying to blame Bill Clinton for the World Trade Center, which probably couldn't have been prevented by ANY president. President Bush, while not directly responsible, should shoulder the responsibility as in: "I was the president, and it happened on my watch. I take responsibility, not for the action itself, but to bring the perpetrators to justice". As it happens he's done neither. He's blaming the past president, and he's gone to war in a country that had nothing to do with the bombing. THAT is my problem with the way Bush has handled the WTC disaster. Billions spent and hundreds of American lives lost to bring in Sadaam Hussein, while the mastermind behind the bombing is still at large, and remains a lesser priority than Bush's personal vendetta in Iraq. Big Jr is watching you!

Apr 16, 2004, 09:13 am	#32 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	I'm biased in my favour. Everyone is biased. Those who say they are not biased, are perhaps the most biased of all people. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Apr 16, 2004, 02:17 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	Your biased in your favor?...what So it goes

Apr 18, 2004, 06:30 am	#34 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	He is a greedy pragmatist, he posted a whole topic on it.

Apr 18, 2004, 09:30 am	#35 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	he is an admitted ego centrist as am I... everyone is, they just don't admit it because it destroys their hopes for utopia... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Apr 21, 2004, 07:00 pm	#36 (permalink) (top)
imperialprincess Sedimentary Rock Posts: 20	Why do you aggressively defend a certain political party?/Ideology This is such a hard question for me to answer. Do I "aggressively" defend a political party? I probably wind up doing that but I don't intend to or start out that way. (Usually I vote with the Democrats (I am realist--this is a two party system. But I like Jessie Ventura and the liberal on civil rights but conservative on financial stuff parties the best--but I won't support them if I don't think they can win or if it means the Repubs get elected by default.) Do I aggressively defend an ideology? Maybe, but I think it is pretty much my own. (Although I sorta like the ideology set out by computer hackers about consensus and individual freedom without governments or corporations or organizations, I just don't think it is "doable".) If you mean more what is my guiding philosophy? here goes: I want to live my life in a way that I think is the best for all concerned and that is spiritually, morally and ethically the best I can make it. I want to live in a country whose laws and system of government best reflects that. I think the ideals that are set out by the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution are a wonderful starting place and I am glad that I am an American (I don't have to try to move to a "better country"). I think we have learned some ways to improve that system that have not been tried, i.e. ranked voting, consensus building, using technology and the Internet. I hope we get to try them to see if we can fix want has gone wrong in our country. I think there is great number of things in our country that need fixing. I could probably say this a little better if I weren't in the middle of dinner and homework but you get my drift.  Policy wise, what is this party doing that you agree with In rough order of importance: 1-looking for a realistic exit plan for Iraq and turning over the nation building to the UN while maintaining (or rather regaining order), 2- reducing, then eliminating the deficit and most of the national debt These are less important than the first two: -fixing and financing education -reforming our sick care system to a "healthcare" one -figuring out how to help people get along with their neighbors across the world (best security) -securing nuclear stuff all around the world -protecting my civil liberties from further erosion - doing tax cuts in a sane way (lower them the for the poorest first and the wealthiest last), - trying to treat people from all walks of life fairly before the law, - reforming the system (campaign finance, lobbying, etc.) -protecting the biosphere for human life -feeding, clothing and sheltering those without it  Historically, what has this party done that you agree with Of course that all depends on how far one goes back doesn't it? In the last fifty years I'd say it (the Democratic Party) has been traveling in a better direction than the Repubs on most things except, Vietnam and spending control.  What is this party doing that you don't agree with? Needs more independence from labor unions and teacher unions. Not serious enough about minorities and women (still an old white, christian male party) Not willing to find a way to reform the social safety net (SS, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) before it bankrupts the country while not abandoning the most needy among us. So far- I don't like any of the Republican proposals to fix this stuff either. In fact their solutions are worse than the problems!

Apr 21, 2004, 08:34 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
Mozart1220 Igneous Magma Posts: 687	The only part that really scares me is the "I won't support them if I don't think they can win" part. I used to be on talk radio (KTKK Salt Lake City, AM 630) and I always hated to hear people say "I would have voted for him, but I didn't think he could win and I didn't want to waste my vote". Voting for the "loser" if he's the guy you liked best is NOT wasting your vote! I voted Perot twice. I always felt that of more people voted their conciaence and not for the "guy they thought would win" he might have had a shot. Or he may have GOTTEN shot, who knows? He wanted to change too many things for the better. I'll probably vote Libertarian this year, just to give them more support. either way, Bush has GOT TO GO!!! Big Jr is watching you!

Apr 22, 2004, 10:08 pm	#38 (permalink) (top)
samsara15 I'm the camel Location: Maryland Posts: 657	I am a liberal. Because I find liberal values is what I think of as logical and beneficial to all. Do I compromise those values? Yes, on occassion. Nothing is absolute. Which is Not a value, but a statement of fact, in human affairs. I muddle along, in other words. I distrust and even dislike those who view the world in terms of absolutes. Economic Left/Right -8.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian –6.97

Apr 25, 2004, 07:10 pm	#40 (permalink) (top)
Sandy Igneous Magma Posts: 257	I am biased in favor of a limited government with more individual liberties and personal responsibilities! I used to have a political party but the neo cons took it over and I am out in the cold. I will go with the LP this year as I did for the last several elections. Kerry? No! Bush? No! Any Libertarian? Hell Yes!!!