God complex

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Let's try an off the beaten path approach to the concept of God. Shall we?

I'm a firm believer that there is not too many people that really go out of their way to genuinely help others for the simply just to help them. It's all give AND take. You've all heard of how they think people own pets because they want to feel like they are God or like they have children to take care of and to nurture. So maybe churches operate the same way. Maybe the "institution" of family also operates the same way. I should repeat the fact that I think that the concept of God is just the pavement that helps us make it to our prime. That helps us raise our children so that they could raise their own children. That helps us survive through all our faults, just like the sheep herder helps to guide the sheep. Think of those flocks of ducks., how they seem to form into a triangle, with the leader in the front that helps to lead them into a safe tommorrow. Damn, Fight Club hit it right in the nail when it said something like "In America our idea of God is shaped by our fathers. What if your father was never around?" This raises the question that maybe there aren't skilled enough leaders to teach and guide our children in the right way. But back to the God complex. Evolution has set it in place for a good reason. It's only the most anxious of us that question it. The concept of God is something that helps to get us into a ripe old age, cause arguing about it wont help to get you food or help you to get a girl for that matter. We arent permanent creatures. I see celebrities as sort of "Gods". The crowd channels their energies into one person, which is beneficial to both parties. We praise our kings(I remember seeing a show on National Geographic where these Africans were passionately bowing to their king. I think this is evolutions way of appropriating energy. The followers make the leaders ego go up, and the leader leads the group into fertile territory. All the while they are all competing for limited space and resources. Fucked huh? Thoughts?

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Jeez, if I would have said something like "God doesnt exist" or some stupid shit like that there would have been twenty replies already.

[LetThereBe]

I disagree that religion would be a mechanism of evolution. You say it helps people grow to a ripe old age, but it seems to me the most zealous end up destroying themselves and others. The evolutionary gears would certainly be hurt when the most devout go off and kill themselves (and the defending zealots) in holy wars. Some religions require celibacy, even if only for clergy.

It seems to me that hedonists would be the most favored by evolution.

[FFT]

The zealots do end up destroying themselves, true. On the other hand, the zealots are typically male, leaving the females at home to raise the children.

Add to that the fact that it's only the clergy that must be celibate, and everyone else has to propogate as quickly as possible, and it's not really inconceivable that religion gives an evolutionary advantage as technology advances. I mean, look at the world today — birth control (and scare tactics :rolleyes: ) are forcing our birth rates downward. What is trying to combat this? Religion. Birth control bad! Procreation good! Those that take this to heart reproduce, the only way evolution works.

[LetThereBe]

Hmmm, but birth control is relatively new. Surely new enough it would have no impact considering the evolutionairy effects. However, many religions support monogamy and absitinence before marriage. Hedenists would have no such restrictions.

[FIFI]

God is a example of what each passing culture worry, fear, value, and admire in themselves, their enviroment, and within their society. With that, it is easy to see how the stories / moral teachings are twisted to reflect the values of those whom learn and re-tell them, let it be in either voice, song or writings. This doesn't say of which he exists or not, because to me, "God" is only what we percieve him / her / it to be within our own set values, morals and experiences.


*whew* Took me a life time to figure this out.

[Jack]

Hedenists would have no such restrictions.

Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. They certainly wouldn't support monogamy and absitinence before marriage for religious reasons (though there's no reason a hedonist couldn't also be religious) but they may for other reasons. I take it you equate hedonist with non-religious?

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Isherwood I take it you equate hedonist with non-religious?

Not necessarily. I do not think all non-religious are hedonists, but I don't think anyone who is religious (and is sincere in their faith) is a hedonist. While a religous person would have the aforementioned restrictions, one who had no faith may or may not. Again, I'm just trying to argue that religion would not be a very effective mechanism of evolution.

[Jack]

I'm just trying to argue that religion would not be a very effective mechanism of evolution.

I agree with that. A philosophy cannot affect a physical process in that manner. Religion has no effect on evolution, except on a social level when it condemns and ridicules those who teach it.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Dam I worship Hedonism and have a lot of faith in it's message of reducing pain and increasing pleasure. Whilst I am not comfortable with Dr John Piper’s perspective; to be Christian Hedonist would be contrary to my absolute belief in Hedonism, I try too religously be alturistic in my missionary zeal to practice Hedonism fully.

LetThereBe your remarks but I don't think anyone who is religious (and is sincere in their faith) is a hedonist. Might be touch on Hedonistic Blasphemy

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel Dam I worship Hedonism and have a lot of faith in it's message of reducing pain and increasing pleasure. Whilst I am not comfortable with Dr John Piper’s perspective; to be Christian Hedonist would be contrary to my absolute belief in Hedonism, I try too religously be alturistic in my missionary zeal to practice Hedonism fully. LetThereBe your remarks but I don't think anyone who is religious (and is sincere in their faith) is a hedonist. Might be touch on Hedonistic Blasphemy

Not sure I see what you are getting at. Do you think that some religions exist solely for the pursuit of pleasure and self-gratification?

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Isherwood - "I agree with that. A philosophy cannot affect a physical process in that manner. Religion has no effect on evolution, except on a social level when it condemns and ridicules those who teach it."


What? Philosophy is like the operating system that our minds operate on. Think of all the wars that have been fueled by religion. Surely the deaths affected the evolution of our species. I mean, it might be something that seems insignificant, but think about the way that people around the world devote so much to these philosophies. It has to count for something.


FIFI - "God is a example of what each passing culture worry, fear, value, and admire in themselves, their enviroment, and within their society. "
You summed up it in a beautiful package. Except replace culture with generation.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Quote by: LetThereBe Not sure I see what you are getting at. Do you think that some religions exist solely for the pursuit of pleasure and self-gratification?

I think pleasure and self-gratification is set up like this: Our minds are conditioned to do the things that achieve desirable results. Maybe there are chemicals that reward us with happiness in our brains after we do certain things, may it be building a nest, hunting an animal, beating someone at something, finding a sexual partner, you know all these things take work. The so called morally upright are just doing rituals and behaviors that achieve good("good" as in desirable mind you) results. The bible is full of morally upright advice. Take a look at the seven deadly sins. Imagine you were living with a bunch of roommates, but there was one that ate up all the food in the house. Wouldn't you be mad at him for some instinctual reason? The bible calls it gluttony. Or like the "wise ass" that thinks he is "the shit". The bible calls it vanity. Or the really jealous husband. you get the point. You see how these things all help in your survival within a group setting?

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Plasma Snake[D] Isherwood - "I agree with that. A philosophy cannot affect a physical process in that manner. Religion has no effect on evolution, except on a social level when it condemns and ridicules those who teach it." What? Philosophy is like the operating system that our minds operate on. Think of all the wars that have been fueled by religion. Surely the deaths affected the evolution of our species. I mean, it might be something that seems insignificant, but think about the way that people around the world devote so much to these philosophies. It has to count for something. .

Again, I think you still need to answer my challenge. Those with an increased likelihood to be religious would have a decreased chance of reproducing. Those very wars you mentioned, celibacy, abstinence, monogomy, or just bugging people with your zealousness. These possible hurdles would not necessarily be in the way of the non religious. It seems to me that evolution would tend to eliminate religion.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

"It seems to me that evolution would tend to eliminate religion."
Oh, what about the fact that those that followed christianity seemed to spread all across the globe so nicely?


I think more that now that we have scinece to help us understand our environment we no longer need religion to tell us to wash our hands or what have you.
Alright, let's suppose this:
theres two clans living in some forest somewhere. One has no firm beliefs in anything, while the other worships some type of sun god or something. I think the one that worships the sun would have more pride and more morale than the other. If they ever got into a quarrel, the one that is more motivated would most likely win the war. I mean, a religious person isnt always a "passive" person, if thats what you are getting at. Religion always has clauses to protect itself, like "Thou shalt not kill", but you may do so only if it is "defending your" country(which is a common thing among animals to defend/offend over limited territory).

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

LetThereBe No!

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Plasma Snake[D] "It seems to me that evolution would tend to eliminate religion." Oh, what about the fact that those that followed christianity seemed to spread all across the globe so nicely? I think more that now that we have scinece to help us understand our environment we no longer need religion to tell us to wash our hands or what have you. Alright, let's suppose this: theres two clans living in some forest somewhere. One has no firm beliefs in anything, while the other worships some type of sun god or something. I think the one that worships the sun would have more pride and more morale than the other. If they ever got into a quarrel, the one that is more motivated would most likely win the war. I mean, a religious person isnt always a "passive" person, if thats what you are getting at. Religion always has clauses to protect itself, like "Thou shalt not kill", but you may do so only if it is "defending your" country(which is a common thing among animals to defend/offend over limited territory).

I would say that such religions spread primarily because of converts, not because of births into the religion. And most of those converts were probably of other religions. About the war, I will admit that religion can play a factor, but not as large of one as you assign. One does not need religion for morale. It seems to me that the defender usually had the higher morale, regardless of relgious preference.

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel LetThereBe No!

Care to elaborate?

[FIFI]

Quote by: Plasma Snake[D] Isherwood - "I agree with that. A philosophy cannot affect a physical process in that manner. Religion has no effect on evolution, except on a social level when it condemns and ridicules those who teach it." What? Philosophy is like the operating system that our minds operate on. Think of all the wars that have been fueled by religion. Surely the deaths affected the evolution of our species. I mean, it might be something that seems insignificant, but think about the way that people around the world devote so much to these philosophies. It has to count for something. FIFI - "God is a example of what each passing culture worry, fear, value, and admire in themselves, their enviroment, and within their society. " You summed up it in a beautiful package. Except replace culture with generation.

Thank you, and yes, when I posted it I realized it should of said generation, that would of been more recent. But on a broader scale, I believe culture. Look at the religious values of Native Africans, S. and N. Americans, then look at Greek / Roman, Europe, Asia, etc. Very different, as are the original cultures.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: LetThereBe Care to elaborate?

LetThereBe The comment was a form of satire which eluded to a view that hedonism can be practiced religiously. Though there was no suggestion that these would not only seek pleasure but do so selfishly. This was not a comment on Satanic Hedonism, easily confused