The name of God

[Jack]

I'm curious why you keep referring to The DaVinci Code? It's a novel, a made-up story and not one of the author's better books. (Book sales do not equate to quality in literature.) It's not meant to be a reference text, it's a fantasy, a fable, a tale not composed of the whole cloth. I don't even believe it's historically accurate.

[Amuse]

Quote by: dthmstr254 Easter always falls on Sunday because it is the day after the Sabbath. Easter was originally set according to the Jewish calendar, which is different. as for the doughting Jesus's existence, I say go with the evidence available, which, tainted or not, still points towards Jesus existing. although technically, if you asked Sinner, he would probably tell you that the Turin Shroud was a portrait of Christ, it isn't because Jesus's beard was ripped out. the only part of the Da Vinci Code I agree with is the part about that being done by the painter. the thing you have to remember is that Jesus taught against idolatry, as did his primary followers' original Jewish teachings. making a sculpture of Jesus was recorded only once in the Bible, in the book of Acts, where Paul rebuked a group of pagans who erected a statue of "the unknown god." obviously there would be no sculptures made in the early church period for this reason.

Your explination of the reason Jesus's raising from the dead is celebrated always on Sunday is illogical and typical of christians trying to make things fit into the belief. Jews don't recognize Jesus as savior and they don't celebrate his resurection either so for the christians to use a jewish calander they should also celebrate other jewish holidays too but instead they pick and choose so as to make it fit.
As for no depiction of Christ because of idolitry issues then the fact that Christ came as a man in itself is idolitry because being in a physical body made of earthly compounds like stone statues and buildings called churches and bread and wine as the body/ blood of Christ is also idolirty. These are all symbols of God and Christ. If you go to church or pick up a bible then you are commiting idolitry because those are symbols of God. It is the christians who say that man is seperate from God and can only come to know God through Jesus Christ and then they turn around and use all this symbolisim to sell the idea to the masses. this is the talking in circles I have mentioned in other threads.
It is illogical to to "spread the good news" about a savior whom you can not prove existed just by word of mouth and blind faith.
Paul rebuked the pagans because "they" made the statue and not the christians. The pagans tried to incorporate the the gods of other beliefs just as the Romans tried to do because they were polythiests (equal opportunity worshipers) but the christians being monothiests would have none of that. Theirs was the One True God and they were going to make sure that their beliefs were going to be THE belief system. They were no different then than the talibhan are today with their insistance that we infidels bow down to Allah and Mohamed. The christians killed for their beliefs. They were the terrorist of the day, threatening the the quality of life. ONE MANS FREEDOM FIGHTER IS ANOTHER MANS TERRORIST.

[Amuse]

Quote by: Isherwood I'm curious why you keep referring to The DaVinci Code? It's a novel, a made-up story and not one of the author's better books. (Book sales do not equate to quality in literature.) It's not meant to be a reference text, it's a fantasy, a fable, a tale not composed of the whole cloth. I don't even believe it's historically accurate.

Christians are attaking a fictional book because its easy to debunk fiction over truth, funny thing is christians are so good at believing in fiction why not the "Code"?

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Amuse Your explination of the reason Jesus's raising from the dead is celebrated always on Sunday is illogical and typical of christians trying to make things fit into the belief. Jews don't recognize Jesus as savior and they don't celebrate his resurection either so for the christians to use a jewish calander they should also celebrate other jewish holidays too but instead they pick and choose so as to make it fit. As for no depiction of Christ because of idolitry issues then the fact that Christ came as a man in itself is idolitry because being in a physical body made of earthly compounds like stone statues and buildings called churches and bread and wine as the body/ blood of Christ is also idolirty. These are all symbols of God and Christ. If you go to church or pick up a bible then you are commiting idolitry because those are symbols of God. It is the christians who say that man is seperate from God and can only come to know God through Jesus Christ and then they turn around and use all this symbolisim to sell the idea to the masses. this is the talking in circles I have mentioned in other threads. It is illogical to to "spread the good news" about a savior whom you can not prove existed just by word of mouth and blind faith. Paul rebuked the pagans because "they" made the statue and not the christians. The pagans tried to incorporate the the gods of other beliefs just as the Romans tried to do because they were polythiests (equal opportunity worshipers) but the christians being monothiests would have none of that. Theirs was the One True God and they were going to make sure that their beliefs were going to be THE belief system. They were no different then than the talibhan are today with their insistance that we infidels bow down to Allah and Mohamed. The christians killed for their beliefs. They were the terrorist of the day, threatening the the quality of life. ONE MANS FREEDOM FIGHTER IS ANOTHER MANS TERRORIST.

the commandment against making a graven image was for man to follow. how does God worship himself? the Old Testament teaches that blood is required for atonement. Jesus fulfilled that prophecy by living a perfect life and dying for our sins, thus atoning our sins, and making salvation accessible. the original Christians were mostly Jews. secondly, Christ preached against idolatry OF ANY FORM. you can't pray to a painting and the painting do anything for you. but praying to a living God can get results. a piece of canvas can't help you. a living God can. and according to the Bible, God is diligent that if we "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and all these things (clothing, shelter, food, water, other various needs) shall be added unto you."

[Amuse]

Quote by: dthmstr254 the commandment against making a graven image was for man to follow. how does God worship himself? the Old Testament teaches that blood is required for atonement. Jesus fulfilled that prophecy by living a perfect life and dying for our sins, thus atoning our sins, and making salvation accessible. the original Christians were mostly Jews. secondly, Christ preached against idolatry OF ANY FORM. you can't pray to a painting and the painting do anything for you. but praying to a living God can get results. a piece of canvas can't help you. a living God can. and according to the Bible, God is diligent that if we "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and all these things (clothing, shelter, food, water, other various needs) shall be added unto you."

It's frustrating when YOU don't read.. I said the very fact that Jesus incarnated in physical form is, according to your bible, man being born a sinner, wich made Christ imperfect and a sinner. It also means the physical body of Christ was in idol that people were supposed to worship and an imperfect one to boot and because a dove (another idol/ symbol) came an landed on his head, was to make him pure through the holy spirit which means he WAS NOT PURE before said event. No atonement here because no blood has been spilled.
1) All men are born sinners- Jesus was born as a man
2) Ahh..but he was born of a virgin.. Sorry but Eve was the original sinner, Adam is guilty by association thus making all humans guilty of sin.
3) Jesus said "No man shall enter into the house of the Lord except through Me... Self idolisation here. Here is an imperfect man who suddenly became pure because the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove lands on his head and annoints him? (I had a dove crap on me once, does that make me a disciple?)
4) And God sent His only begotten Son so that whosoever shall believeth in Him shall have everlasting life... Again this is idol worship as God Himself asks you to believe in His Son instead of coming to God by yourself. God has shut himself off from man and says the only way to get to Him is through his Son whom was a man also.

God worshiped himself by, according to YOUR bible, creating man in is image/ likeness because God was lonely. Then man "sinned" and because of that, all of a sudden, man gets kicked out of Gods grace. God knew this was going to happen of coarse because He knows EVERYTHING but He let it happen anyway. So now, we are no longer good enough to be in God's club as equals and if we want to get back in we are gonna have to jump through hoops to do so. We aren't as good as God so it seems God sees Himself as better than us which is self worship. Remember God created man in his image which is supposed to be perfect and then we sinned and now we are no longer perfect but God knew we were going to be imperfect which means that God created us imperfect in the first place. We were doomed from the start which makes God imperfect. Circles and circles.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Amuse It's frustrating when YOU don't read.. I said the very fact that Jesus incarnated in physical form is, according to your bible, man being born a sinner, wich made Christ imperfect and a sinner. It also means the physical body of Christ was in idol that people were supposed to worship and an imperfect one to boot and because a dove (another idol/ symbol) came an landed on his head, was to make him pure through the holy spirit which means he WAS NOT PURE before said event. No atonement here because no blood has been spilled. 1) All men are born sinners- Jesus was born as a man 2) Ahh..but he was born of a virgin.. Sorry but Eve was the original sinner, Adam is guilty by association thus making all humans guilty of sin. 3) Jesus said "No man shall enter into the house of the Lord except through Me... Self idolisation here. Here is an imperfect man who suddenly became pure because the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove lands on his head and annoints him? (I had a dove crap on me once, does that make me a disciple?) 4) And God sent His only begotten Son so that whosoever shall believeth in Him shall have everlasting life... Again this is idol worship as God Himself asks you to believe in His Son instead of coming to God by yourself. God has shut himself off from man and says the only way to get to Him is through his Son whom was a man also. God worshiped himself by, according to YOUR bible, creating man in is image/ likeness because God was lonely. Then man "sinned" and because of that, all of a sudden, man gets kicked out of Gods grace. God knew this was going to happen of coarse because He knows EVERYTHING but He let it happen anyway. So now, we are no longer good enough to be in God's club as equals and if we want to get back in we are gonna have to jump through hoops to do so. We aren't as good as God so it seems God sees Himself as better than us which is self worship. Remember God created man in his image which is supposed to be perfect and then we sinned and now we are no longer perfect but God knew we were going to be imperfect which means that God created us imperfect in the first place. We were doomed from the start which makes God imperfect. Circles and circles.

that only worked if Joseph was the natural father, which he was not. God was the natural Father. Jesus was all man and all God at the same time.

edit: please wait and let me finish this post from a stronger computer. this computer keeps freezing

[Amuse]

Quote by: dthmstr254 that only worked if Joseph was the natural father, which he was not. God was the natural Father. Jesus was all man and all God at the same time. edit: please wait and let me finish this post from a stronger computer. this computer keeps freezing

Mary was still a decendant of Adam and Eve making her a sinner an unpure also.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Amuse Mary was still a decendant of Adam and Eve making her a sinner an unpure also.

this gave the human side to it. all of Jesus's choices were still His own. in the garden of Gesthemene He prayed "not MY will but THINE be done." there was still the human nature that Jesus had to battle every day. according to Paul, Jesus was tempted in every way that we are tempted. this means everything from lust to hate to anger were part of the temptations. you couldn't say that Satan wouldn't tempt Jesus, who was human as well as deity, to lust after a good-looking woman. in fact, I submit that Jesus was tempted every day. the difference is, Jesus never succumbed to those temptations. He was faithful to God's will all the way to the cross. this is all much more complicated than we ever could have imagined. traits of God AND human combined into one. given current science and DNA findings, evidently God must have made us more in His image than we could imagine. how could God combine with man in Jesus's birth? the only thing I can think of is that His DNA is the same build as ours. now that is a thought. anyways, a human was under the law, which means that Jesus was under the law in His actions up to His physical death. in the case that someone never committed a sin in their life, they were free from the law and the chains breaking the law gives. those chains are what keeps us from getting to Heaven. Jesus never could be found at fault for anything, and his order of execution by Pilate was nothing more than a political decision. He gave His life, as prophecied in the Old testament, and established a new covenant (as prophecied in the book of Zechariah) of grace. the chains of sin keep us from heaven, and now Jesus offers to cut those chains off so we can enter heaven. he lived a sinless life, and at the cross, he carried not his own sins, but the sins of the entire world. the sins of every murderer, rapist, child molester, you, me, my pastor, and even people like Bin Laden, were nailed to the cross, and all you have to do is sign the dotted line. tell me, could any offer possibly be better?

[another day]

What a silly story.

[Amuse]

Quote by: dthmstr254 this gave the human side to it. all of Jesus's choices were still His own. in the garden of Gesthemene He prayed "not MY will but THINE be done." there was still the human nature that Jesus had to battle every day. according to Paul, Jesus was tempted in every way that we are tempted. this means everything from lust to hate to anger were part of the temptations. you couldn't say that Satan wouldn't tempt Jesus, who was human as well as deity, to lust after a good-looking woman. in fact, I submit that Jesus was tempted every day. the difference is, Jesus never succumbed to those temptations. He was faithful to God's will all the way to the cross. this is all much more complicated than we ever could have imagined. traits of God AND human combined into one. given current science and DNA findings, evidently God must have made us more in His image than we could imagine. how could God combine with man in Jesus's birth? the only thing I can think of is that His DNA is the same build as ours. now that is a thought. anyways, a human was under the law, which means that Jesus was under the law in His actions up to His physical death. in the case that someone never committed a sin in their life, they were free from the law and the chains breaking the law gives. those chains are what keeps us from getting to Heaven. Jesus never could be found at fault for anything, and his order of execution by Pilate was nothing more than a political decision. He gave His life, as prophecied in the Old testament, and established a new covenant (as prophecied in the book of Zechariah) of grace. the chains of sin keep us from heaven, and now Jesus offers to cut those chains off so we can enter heaven. he lived a sinless life, and at the cross, he carried not his own sins, but the sins of the entire world. the sins of every murderer, rapist, child molester, you, me, my pastor, and even people like Bin Laden, were nailed to the cross, and all you have to do is sign the dotted line. tell me, could any offer possibly be better?

This story has been tweeked and perfected over the last two thousand years and most of the time easily acceptable in the mind of a child. There was a time when religion was more powerful than monarcies and kingships, in fact kings never went to war before consulting their holy man. Bishops and cardinals were given judicial power and nothing could be done without express permission from them first. They ruled everything. Commoners were not allowed to own books, not even a bible, books were burned, it was a sin to read. Crusades were taking place throughout the known world to aquire converts and wealth through bloody conquest. Any one who questioned the church was branded a heretic and was considered lucky if he only had his or her eyes gouged out and tounge cut out. This was done as a warning to anyone that had any independant thinking. This period of history when the "religious right" ruled every facet of our lives was known as THE DARK AGES. Isin't it funny that when the governments handed over power to the "Church", the "Church" became just as barbaric and ruthless if not worse than the very government that the "Church" fought so hard to gain their independace from?
While the story you tell sounds warm and fuzzy the facts are in print of a very different ascention to power over history. The ideoligy that you and the other "soldiers" are trying to push on the ignorant has a very dark and evil begining. While your intentions may be pure the dogma that you are spreading is very ungodly. You are no different than any soldier who because they are told it's "right" goes out and kills others of a different belief system for what they believe in. Make no mistake about this- your intentions " may" be pure but the goal of your programers is all about the power of rule and nothing to do with God or Jesus.
The religious man always thinks that his zeal for making converts is a virtue. It is not a virtue at all, but a vice, because this zeal is due to his egoism.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Amuse This story has been tweeked and perfected over the last two thousand years and most of the time easily acceptable in the mind of a child. There was a time when religion was more powerful than monarcies and kingships, in fact kings never went to war before consulting their holy man. Bishops and cardinals were given judicial power and nothing could be done without express permission from them first. They ruled everything. Commoners were not allowed to own books, not even a bible, books were burned, it was a sin to read. Crusades were taking place throughout the known world to aquire converts and wealth through bloody conquest. Any one who questioned the church was branded a heretic and was considered lucky if he only had his or her eyes gouged out and tounge cut out. This was done as a warning to anyone that had any independant thinking. This period of history when the "religious right" ruled every facet of our lives was known as THE DARK AGES. Isin't it funny that when the governments handed over power to the "Church", the "Church" became just as barbaric and ruthless if not worse than the very government that the "Church" fought so hard to gain their independace from? While the story you tell sounds warm and fuzzy the facts are in print of a very different ascention to power over history. The ideoligy that you and the other "soldiers" are trying to push on the ignorant has a very dark and evil begining. While your intentions may be pure the dogma that you are spreading is very ungodly. You are no different than any soldier who because they are told it's "right" goes out and kills others of a different belief system for what they believe in. Make no mistake about this- your intentions " may" be pure but the goal of your programers is all about the power of rule and nothing to do with God or Jesus. The religious man always thinks that his zeal for making converts is a virtue. It is not a virtue at all, but a vice, because this zeal is due to his egoism.

can't help the sins of the Catholics cloud the Protestants. that is why I refer to the versions produced through the use of copies not produced by the Catholic church. in case you didn't know, the first church was in Jerusalem, not Rome. the KJV falls under that category, as does the Latin Vulgate. those derived most of their information from 75 different full copies of the New Testament. if the dogma we are spreading, which includes the God is a loving, holy, and pure God, are ungodly, and that God is giving us a way to heaven through His Son Jesus Christ, then I am glad I can leave that up to Him, and not you. unless you are God, you can't judge what is godly and what isn't. that is not your jurisdiction. the Holy Spirit moves in the heart of every Christian, as promised by Jesus in Acts and John, and also in many of the Epistles (the "renewing of the Holy Spirit in you").

secondly, a true Christian has no ego. "amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a WRETCH LIKE ME." all my righteousness is as filthy rags. no belief has ever been so centered on God's grace. every other religion that included a god(s) has required the person to work his way to heaven. I am eternally grateful that my salvation is not based on my works, because I would have lost it within an hour off waking up each day. Billy Graham could never keep his salvation through his own works on his best day. DL Moody, Paul of tarsus, Simon Peter, none of these could keep their salvation no matter how holy they tried to be. zeal is not what saved me. it is "salvation by grace, not of yourselves it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

[Jack]

secondly, a true Christian has no ego.

That statement itself is egotistic. Just because you can cite gospel passages that say you shouldn't be egotistic doesn't automatically mean you aren't. I'm not accusing you of personal egotism; it's your religion that sets itself so high above those not "in the club". It's religion that's fostered seperations between human beings (second only to geography), and takes great pride in having done so. Christians are proud to be christians.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Isherwood That statement itself is egotistic. Just because you can cite gospel passages that say you shouldn't be egotistic doesn't automatically mean you aren't. I'm not accusing you of personal egotism; it's your religion that sets itself so high above those not "in the club". It's religion that's fostered seperations between human beings (second only to geography), and takes great pride in having done so. Christians are proud to be christians.

the name wasn't created by Christians, just ascribed to them by the citizens of antioch.

[Sinner]

Amuse Here is a question for you biblical scholars- We always celebrate Jesus's birth on Dec.25 no matter what day of the week it falls on but his death which is supposed to be Easter is always on Sunday?? Because I dought Jesus existed as a physical being I also question christianity as a whole. I think of Christ as a concept rather than a real person. There is no physical description of Jesus in the bible. Beyond the bible there are no records, sculptures, portraits or anything that were created during His supposed earthly existance that depict what he looked like which I find very odd for someone who was "so well known" and "seen by multitudes".

Firstly, The True Church celebrates Jesus's birth on 7th of January. Easter is different every year because it is calculated to the formula. Moreover, there are two Easters, the heretical one and the true one.

The formula for Easter—"The first Sunday after the first full moon on or after the vernal equinox"—is identical for both Western and Orthodox Easters, but the churches base the dates on different calendars: Western churches use the Gregorian calendar, the standard calendar for much of the world, and Orthodox churches use the older, Julian calendar.

That much is straightforward. But actually calculating these dates involves a bewildering array of ecclesiastical moons and paschal full moons, the astronomical equinox, and the fixed equinox— and that's in addition to the two different calendar systems.

When is A Full Moon Full?

The two churches vary on the definition of the vernal equinox and the full moon. The Eastern Church sets the date of Easter according to the actual, astronomical full moon and the actual equinox as observed along the meridian of Jerusalem, site of the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

Relation to Passover

The Eastern Orthodox Church also applies the formula so that Easter always falls after Passover, since the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ took place after he entered Jerusalem to celebrate Passover. In the Western Church, Easter sometimes precedes Passover by weeks.

It is in fact known what Jesus looks like. The Shroud of Turine is an accurate image which evidenced by its likeness to numerous icons.

Your explination of the reason Jesus's raising from the dead is celebrated always on Sunday is illogical and typical of christians trying to make things fit into the belief. Jews don't recognize Jesus as savior and they don't celebrate his resurection either so for the christians to use a jewish calander they should also celebrate other jewish holidays too but instead they pick and choose so as to make it fit.

You see untill the Jesus's execution jews were God's choosen people so their calendar was relevant. Obviously ones they staged Jesus's execution they become God's cursed people, so celebrating their holidays is opposing The Christ and co-operating with servants of the devil which is impossible for a Christian.

Isherwood That statement itself is egotistic. Just because you can cite gospel passages that say you shouldn't be egotistic doesn't automatically mean you aren't. I'm not accusing you of personal egotism; it's your religion that sets itself so high above those not "in the club". It's religion that's fostered seperations between human beings (second only to geography), and takes great pride in having done so. Christians are proud to be christians.

I agree with you to some degree. Christians are people as everyone else, so we can be egotistic. We also believe we are choosen. And the most important task for us is personal salvation.
However, the nature of Christianity is such that this apparent egotism transfers to unprecedented self-sacrifice and love towards others.

You see to achieve personal salvation one must serve others and give live for others.

[Amuse]

Quote by: dthmstr254 can't help the sins of the Catholics cloud the Protestants. that is why I refer to the versions produced through the use of copies not produced by the Catholic church. in case you didn't know, the first church was in Jerusalem, not Rome. the KJV falls under that category, as does the Latin Vulgate. those derived most of their information from 75 different full copies of the New Testament. if the dogma we are spreading, which includes the God is a loving, holy, and pure God, are ungodly, and that God is giving us a way to heaven through His Son Jesus Christ, then I am glad I can leave that up to Him, and not you. unless you are God, you can't judge what is godly and what isn't. that is not your jurisdiction. the Holy Spirit moves in the heart of every Christian, as promised by Jesus in Acts and John, and also in many of the Epistles (the "renewing of the Holy Spirit in you"). secondly, a true Christian has no ego. "amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a WRETCH LIKE ME." all my righteousness is as filthy rags. no belief has ever been so centered on God's grace. every other religion that included a god(s) has required the person to work his way to heaven. I am eternally grateful that my salvation is not based on my works, because I would have lost it within an hour off waking up each day. Billy Graham could never keep his salvation through his own works on his best day. DL Moody, Paul of tarsus, Simon Peter, none of these could keep their salvation no matter how holy they tried to be. zeal is not what saved me. it is "salvation by grace, not of yourselves it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

First, I'd like to thank you for finally adressing my comments with some reasoning skills instead of only spouting bible verses. Second, Rome was the ruling government in Jeruselem at that time of Jesus not that the church was in Rome. Third, it is my understanding that the "1st church" was the Roman Catholic Church made up of both Roman converts and the jewish followers of Christ including the deciples that stayed around after Christs crucifiction and any other of the various "faithful" of that day. As the "church" grew in power and numbers, various groups within the "church" began to disagree with ideologies being set down as "Gods will" which at times resulted in a blood bath among the "choosen" and the losers that weren't killed were branded heretics and banished. Those that were banished would then start their own "church" using the original core beliefs and adding to those core beliefs the ideolgies that got them banished in the first place creating a "reformed" church and taking with it those belivers that could embrace the "new beliefs". As this happened over and over again through the ages we now have many denominations in western organized christian religion that are offshoots of the "original church" (catholic) each with their own ideas of who God is and what His will is and theirs is the "One True Way" to salvation. That's where the EGO part comes in, christians, now matter what ideoligy they adhere to, they believe they are God's chosen ones no matter whether they are catholics, protestanst( pronounced pro-testants), presbyterian, baptist, lutheran, seventh day adventist, latter day saints (mormons) etc.
Their Ego says "Ours Is The Only Way" to salvation and the rest are doomed. These various "churches" have made God in mans image not the other way around. attributing to God, the traits of man. Fear, hate, jealousy, envy, lack, vengence and conditional love are the aspects of God that christians as a whole ( no matter what denomination and I'm not singling you out dthmastr) use to gain converts (because killing as coersion is no longer acceptable or legal) and to seperate themselves apart from the "nonbelivers". It is the responsibility of each christian to ask themselves their INTENT behind "spreading the good word" to nonbelivers. Is it through love or fear? For your love for God or the fear of God's judgment and punishment against you for not doing His work? If you told no one about God from the day you became a christian til the day you die what would your reward be? It isn't important for me to know YOUR anwser to these questions as much as it is important for you to understand YOUR INTENT behind your actions as a christian. My belief is- if a nonbeliver comes to you seeking and you share, then you are doing Gods work but if YOU seek out nonbelivers then it is your Ego at work.

[Amuse]

Quote by: dthmstr254 can't help the sins of the Catholics cloud the Protestants. that is why I refer to the versions produced through the use of copies not produced by the Catholic church. in case you didn't know, the first church was in Jerusalem, not Rome. the KJV falls under that category, as does the Latin Vulgate. those derived most of their information from 75 different full copies of the New Testament. if the dogma we are spreading, which includes the God is a loving, holy, and pure God, are ungodly, and that God is giving us a way to heaven through His Son Jesus Christ, then I am glad I can leave that up to Him, and not you. unless you are God, you can't judge what is godly and what isn't. that is not your jurisdiction. the Holy Spirit moves in the heart of every Christian, as promised by Jesus in Acts and John, and also in many of the Epistles (the "renewing of the Holy Spirit in you"). secondly, a true Christian has no ego. "amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a WRETCH LIKE ME." all my righteousness is as filthy rags. no belief has ever been so centered on God's grace. every other religion that included a god(s) has required the person to work his way to heaven. I am eternally grateful that my salvation is not based on my works, because I would have lost it within an hour off waking up each day. Billy Graham could never keep his salvation through his own works on his best day. DL Moody, Paul of tarsus, Simon Peter, none of these could keep their salvation no matter how holy they tried to be. zeal is not what saved me. it is "salvation by grace, not of yourselves it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

It's your choice to believe you are a wretch. I don't see you as one. You are God's creation and I would never say God created anything less that perfect. You can believe you are born a sinner if you want and try to live your life to attone for your sins but I choose to see you experiencing life FOR God not because OF God. I choose to see you as part of God not seperate from God. The only sin I see is that you don't love yourself, as God loves you. That you see yourself living conditionaly to achieve His Unconditional love. Gods love doesn't require anything from you. Unconditional love means there are NO conditions. True salvation is for us to learn unconditional love as God knows it. That is the concept behind the story of Jesus. He as man learned unconditional love, Hence "no man shall enter the kingdom of heaven/ God except through Me (my example).

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Amuse It's your choice to believe you are a wretch. I don't see you as one. You are God's creation and I would never say God created anything less that perfect. You can believe you are born a sinner if you want and try to live your life to attone for your sins but I choose to see you experiencing life FOR God not because OF God. I choose to see you as part of God not seperate from God. The only sin I see is that you don't love yourself, as God loves you. That you see yourself living conditionaly to achieve His Unconditional love. Gods love doesn't require anything from you. Unconditional love means there are NO conditions. True salvation is for us to learn unconditional love as God knows it. That is the concept behind the story of Jesus. He as man learned unconditional love, Hence "no man shall enter the kingdom of heaven/ God except through Me (my example).

what did Paul say? "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" I am God's adopted child, giving me all rights to God's kingdom. all I had to do is accept the offer of salvation and repent my sins. salvation is a gift. to receive a gift, one must ACCEPT the gift.

[Chris the Chees]

You forgot Option 4: I dont believe Jesus ever existed, based on the lack of contemporary evidence to suggest otherwise.

Not that I agree with it, but it is a perfectly valid view.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Chris the Chees You forgot Option 4: I dont believe Jesus ever existed, based on the lack of contemporary evidence to suggest otherwise. Not that I agree with it, but it is a perfectly valid view.

so, you want the source to be an eyewitness that had a bias aainst Him. hat is the most absurd thing I ever heard. you have plenty of stuff written about Him in the Bible and writings of the early church. if you want contemporary sources from an unbiased source, you will be searching forever, because there wasn't a single person that knew Jesus and had no opinion of Him.

[samsara15]

I think Jesus never existed, and that the evidence of his existence is non-existent. I don't even think the apostle Paul saw Jesus as any more than a heavenly spirit. The Romans didn't know who Jesus was. None of their literature (rife with frauds) attests to his existence.

There also is little evidence that the Bible is any more than a book of ancient myths and inaccurate history.