Jesus=God?

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Isherwood Got irony? Grasp sarcasm?

Funny, still no reply from you ish on what I have said. hmm.. :rolleyes:

[Jack]

Well, let's see what you said to me:

Ish please read my post on sins Ignorant much? And technically you do not have a religion but a lack thereof

I couldn't read your post since you supplied no link and I don't feel like trying to guess which post you were referring to. So I made a sarcastic remark, the irony of which you seemed to have missed.

Yea, I'm probably ignorant of many things. I do try to stay educated.

You're correct, I have a lack of religion. Yet a court has called atheism a religion, so maybe I do have a religion after all.

Better now?

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Back again with a mix of confusion and annoyance. Is Jesus, God? Can Jesus be God? And what's the trinity about? And if there's a trinity with Jesus and God and the Ghost or something as the same entity, then how did God "create" Jesus? Or why did "Jesus" save us, and not God? If God wanted to send someone down to "save" us, even though we're probably worse in the 2000 years after him, why didn't he come down himself to tell us what was up? And why the separate entity? I'll spare my other thousand questions for the posts.

Long back we had few exchange of thoughts, Soccer. I did well understand that you do not believe in ghosts, soul, supernatural powers etc. Therefore, it surprises me to see your questions all of which relate to what you do not believe in, God in particular!!!!

On a different thread, you might have come cross my conception of God as [SOMETHING], while everything else, Universe in particular, as its one of its infinite properties. Equating this imagination to say, ME. I have properties that I can see, listen, talk, walk, think and the like. I have various internal and external body parts (organs). Then the specific shape, size and form and also specific temper, intellect etc. etc. is clear cut representation of somebody called Kuldeep. Kuldeep exists because his properties exist. Exactly in similar fashion, my imagined God (SOMETHING) exists since, one of its known properties Universe do exist. Secondly, the way I exist everywhere in my body, same way God (SOMETHING) exists in whole universe and also in other properties which are not conceivable to normal human being-------Any comments please???? :(

Let me discuss questions relating to Jesus, after reading your comments!!!! :eek:

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Isherwood Well, let's see what you said to me: I couldn't read your post since you supplied no link and I don't feel like trying to guess which post you were referring to. So I made a sarcastic remark, the irony of which you seemed to have missed. Yea, I'm probably ignorant of many things. I do try to stay educated. You're correct, I have a lack of religion. Yet a court has called atheism a religion, so maybe I do have a religion after all. Better now?

I mean my posts in the middle of page 2 with actual posts not my one sentence posts

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Kuldeep Long back we had few exchange of thoughts, Soccer. I did well understand that you do not believe in ghosts, soul, supernatural powers etc. Therefore, it surprises me to see your questions all of which relate to what you do not believe in, God in particular!!!! On a different thread, you might have come cross my conception of God as [SOMETHING], while everything else, Universe in particular, as its one of its infinite properties. Equating this imagination to say, ME. I have properties that I can see, listen, talk, walk, think and the like. I have various internal and external body parts (organs). Then the specific shape, size and form and also specific temper, intellect etc. etc. is clear cut representation of somebody called Kuldeep. Kuldeep exists because his properties exist. Exactly in similar fashion, my imagined God (SOMETHING) exists since, one of its known properties Universe do exist. Secondly, the way I exist everywhere in my body, same way God (SOMETHING) exists in whole universe and also in other properties which are not conceivable to normal human being-------Any comments please???? :( Let me discuss questions relating to Jesus, after reading your comments!!!! :eek:

Let's clarify, since you clearly took the time not to:

-You exist because you have properties, you are made up of atoms, your electric impulses run your mind and intellect, etc.
-You say that God exists because it also has a property, the universe.

That's where we run into problems; the universe is not a property, nor itself a medium of existence, but instead an environment. Notice how YOUR atoms make up YOU, but the universe CONTAINS atoms that make up other "things" and lifeforms.

*That is like saying the forest is alive, which is false. The trees in the forest are alive. Symbolically, we are like the trees. Thus, you have yet to give a substance or medium for any God's existence. Unless of course you'd scientifically rather enjoy taking it on blind faith. Admitting so is half the battle.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 -You exist because you have properties, you are made up of atoms, your electric impulses run your mind and intellect, etc. -You say that God exists because it also has a property, the universe. That's where we run into problems; the universe is not a property, nor itself a medium of existence, but instead an environment.

You say "the universe is not a property, nor itself a medium of existence, but instead an environment"; while your body is a property of yourself. This means your various internal organs stationed inside the cantor of your body is not your environment, but is property and medium!!! I was surprised to read from an intellect like you that ''Universe is not a medium of existence". Please do not confuse your ownself with magic of vocabulary. Environment contain medium and both have properties----mixing words won't prove or disprove facts or the reality!!!!!

I would not change my feeling presently. Rather, please have patience and re-think once more what I have said. I would also help you as folllows:

Your all physical materilist systems right up to DNA, RNA, Genes, Chromzomes are run by some unknown force (YOU). The joint physical system in gross form are your inner organs and in more grosser form are outer body parts. After your death that force (YOU) seize to exist (as you think, I do not), the body decays due to certain other nature's properties. Same way millions and millions of stars are like DNA, RNA, Genes, chromzomes are run by some unknown force (SOMETHING), which people call God). Both YOU & GOD are unknown to common man till now. But then YOU exist everywhere in your body while SOMETHING exist in whole Universe. I do not problem anywhere. One should have an intention to solve the problem, but to creat one using word game!!!!

Notice how YOUR atoms make up YOU, but the universe CONTAINS atoms that make up other "things" and lifeforms. .

Your scientists only have proved that the Universe is exanding with a positive acceceleration, thus I would say (SOMETHING) also make up other "things" and lifeforms. :eek:

[/quote]
*That is like saying the forest is alive, which is false. The trees in the forest are alive. Symbolically, we are like the trees. Thus, you have yet to give a substance or medium for any God's existence. Unless of course you'd scientifically rather enjoy taking it on blind faith. Admitting so is half the battle.[/quote]

Your argument is rather with prejudice mind. First you questioned existence of God, now you stress on life of God. Have you not heard Live forest and Dead forest????? :confused:

Please accept a simple answer to your complicated question!!! Rather I am seeing you are trying to find complicated answer to a simple question. :(

Poor Jesus & God both have to wait yet to get the turn. :)

[another day]

The problem comes in your connection of an invented being, God, with the known property of the universe. The universe exists because of it's known properties. This does not mean that your imagined god exists simply because you ATTRIBUTE the quality of the universe to him. You say the universe is gods "known property"...says who? YOU made that assumption based on your idea of what god could be. It's not truth nor is it convincing in the least.

thats a silly argument anyways...are we supposed to accept undeniably that a thinking creator exists simply because the universe exists? It's totally nonsensical. It has no connection to the way you exist because of your known properties, because YOU are actually known to exist.

[LetThereBe]

Hmm, it seems to have gotten a might off topic. I just have one major challenge to the deity of Jesus Christ:

We all agree that a property of God (if one existed) would be omniscience. However, Jesus himself acknowledged that He did not know the time or the hour of the second coming, that only His Father knew.

How could Jesus be God if He lacked a piece of knowledge? How can Jesus and the Father be the same being if they do not even share the same knowledge? The Bible is very clearly monotheistic, how can two beings (obviously seperate in body, mind, and perhaps even personality) both be God?

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: LetThereBe Hmm, it seems to have gotten a might off topic. I just have one major challenge to the deity of Jesus Christ: We all agree that a property of God (if one existed) would be omniscience. However, Jesus himself acknowledged that He did not know the time or the hour of the second coming, that only His Father knew. How could Jesus be God if He lacked a piece of knowledge? How can Jesus and the Father be the same being if they do not even share the same knowledge? The Bible is very clearly monotheistic, how can two beings (obviously seperate in body, mind, and perhaps even personality) both be God?

ok, let's compare this to Smallville (a series about the early days of Superman's life, from high school up. Clark has all these abilities, but he doesn't want them to be known by the rest of the world. so while in the outsides of his home, he chose not to use them. in this sense, he turned them off. now, bringing the movie term into relavence, Jesus came down to earth knowing that He could not come in all His glory. as God said in the book of Exodus, man cannot see the fullness of His glory and live, because it is too much for our sinful bodies to handle and we would literally die from an overload of input. so Jesus "flipped the switch" on some of His abilities, including omniscience (although He flipped it partway on in the parts where He read the minds of the Pharisees) and many other abilities. He retained the ability to switch them back on, but He didn't switch them on but once at the Mount of Transfiguration, where the three closest disciples saw Him in the fullness of His glory.we can consider each one, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, as three parts to a whole. the Father is the mind, Jesus is the body, and the Holy Spirit is the soul.

[LetThereBe]

Hmmm, I find the idea that God could blind Himself to His own omniscience rather odd. Also, there are many instances where the father seems to have a body, so its not so simple as Jesus is the "body form" of God. Ezekial saw Him on the throne, and so did Isaiah. He physically walked in the garden of Eden. Also, the Bible says multiple times that Jesus "sits on the right hand of God." If that is to be taken literally, then they exist in two different places at once. Hence, not one being.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Kuldeep You say "the universe is not a property, nor itself a medium of existence, but instead an environment"; while your body is a property of yourself. This means your various internal organs stationed inside the cantor of your body is not your environment, but is property and medium!!! I was surprised to read from an intellect like you that ''Universe is not a medium of existence". Please do not confuse your ownself with magic of vocabulary. Environment contain medium and both have properties----mixing words won't prove or disprove facts or the reality!!!!!

If you really want me to be specific, fine, I will be. Twisting what I meant in an attempted full circle won't help you. The universe contains life, an environment. Your organs are an attachment to life, part of the digestive, endocrine, and cardiac systems; the leader of these systems is the brain, which uses neurons to communicate movements and sensation between cells.

The universe is not a system of life. That's like saying we're in its stomach, or that our stomachs are just as "alive" as we are. There is no communication, no thought pattern, no repetitive motions because of intellect and celluar cooperation that constitute life inside a VACUUM! The universe is chaos. Our abilities to find "beauty" among this chaos is our own humanistic doing, not that of the universe. It doesn't intend for nebulaes to be beautiful. There is no intention, no emotion, no breathing, no sign of life. Did you really think the universe was alive?

Quote by: Kuldeep I would not change my feeling presently. Rather, please have patience and re-think once more what I have said. I would also help you as folllows: Your all physical materilist systems right up to DNA, RNA, Genes, Chromzomes are run by some unknown force (YOU). The joint physical system in gross form are your inner organs and in more grosser form are outer body parts. After your death that force (YOU) seize to exist (as you think, I do not), the body decays due to certain other nature's properties. Same way millions and millions of stars are like DNA, RNA, Genes, chromzomes are run by some unknown force (SOMETHING), which people call God). Both YOU & GOD are unknown to common man till now. But then YOU exist everywhere in your body while SOMETHING exist in whole Universe. I do not problem anywhere. One should have an intention to solve the problem, but to creat one using word game!!!!

Unknown force? What is this, science fiction class? Your DNA is a code, something your cells work off of. It was given to you during conception, and this code began creating your cells using cell division by this code. Even with an imagination like yours, I don't see the need for compulsive ignorance of modern science. If "YOU" were the force, then you would be controlling billions and billions of cells in your head, which we all know your body wouldn't be able to handle the costant neuron movement and your body would probably shut down or something. Oh yeah, and the fact that you actually call your little creation "something" is simply priceless. You're saying, without evidence of course, that the universe is alive as a person and its a something. Like what the hell?

Quote by: Kuldeep Your scientists only have proved that the Universe is exanding with a positive acceceleration, thus I would say (SOMETHING) also make up other "things" and lifeforms. :eek: Your argument is rather with prejudice mind. First you questioned existence of God, now you stress on life of God. Have you not heard Live forest and Dead forest????? :confused: Please accept a simple answer to your complicated question!!! Rather I am seeing you are trying to find complicated answer to a simple question. :( Poor Jesus & God both have to wait yet to get the turn. :)

For one, your first sentence contains a cause and effect, yet both ideas have no correlation with one another. The expanding universe, does not also tell us the universe's composition, other than the fact that we know it's a vacuum, which for some reason you seem to enjoy calling a something, when it is really just an absence of everything as far as we know.

I question the existence of God and every other supernatural thing every made by the human mind. That means, in its essence, that I technically reject millions of made up deities because of different viewpoints of a creator ever made by man, then I reject the thousands of branches of beliefs that stem from them. You accept God's supernatural capabilities, yet, from what I gather, reject any other capabilities of a deity's existence, since only one can exist (one meaning religion). So that's really a lot like me, since that would also be rejecting millions of religions and stems. Basically, your accusation of me being prejudice is like saying a man with 1,000,000 dollars is definitely more rich than a man with 999,999 dollars, since they're finances, like our rejections of beliefs, are so much alike.

And couldn't I say that you are prejudiced for accepting the belief of God? Prejudice is an opinion, so throwing that in a heated, detailed, scientific vs. supernatural discussion seems redundant. Also, I never stressed on "life of God," whatever that means. I'm only talking about the inexistence of life of God and your childish theories that you've created in its wake.

I am a very reasonable person. If the answer were simple I would not have responded to your initial post with so many rejections and questions on everything you've put in them. There are so many certainties in science that you just love to ignore. Please don't be so ignorant.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: LetThereBe Hmmm, I find the idea that God could blind Himself to His own omniscience rather odd. Also, there are many instances where the father seems to have a body, so its not so simple as Jesus is the "body form" of God. Ezekial saw Him on the throne, and so did Isaiah. He physically walked in the garden of Eden. Also, the Bible says multiple times that Jesus "sits on the right hand of God." If that is to be taken literally, then they exist in two different places at once. Hence, not one being.

no, He knew it was there, He just didn't access it. just like if you knew you could jump a hurdle, and didn't, it doesn't mean you can't. the ability to NOT do something comes with the ability to DO something.

secondly, the places where God walked in the garden of Eden was a form of Christology, literally a point in time prior to the New testament that Jesus came down. they never gave a name, but it was Jesus they were seeing, not God Himself. at that point though, He had not turned off His omniscience, for He already knew that they had sinned and made a promise only possible through omniscience: that the serpent would bruise (crush) the heel of the "woman's seed" but that He would bruise (crush) the serpent's head. and the right hand would refer to position in a hierarchy. that is the source of the phrase "right-hand man." is your right hand man always on your right?

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 If you really want me to be specific, fine, I will be. Twisting what I meant in an attempted full circle won't help you. The universe contains life, an environment. Your organs are an attachment to life, part of the digestive, endocrine, and cardiac systems; the leader of these systems is the brain, which uses neurons to communicate movements and sensation between cells. The universe is not a system of life. That's like saying we're in its stomach, or that our stomachs are just as "alive" as we are. There is no communication, no thought pattern, no repetitive motions because of intellect and celluar cooperation that constitute life inside a VACUUM! The universe is chaos. Our abilities to find "beauty" among this chaos is our own humanistic doing, not that of the universe. It doesn't intend for nebulaes to be beautiful. There is no intention, no emotion, no breathing, no sign of life. Did you really think the universe was alive?

As much as I hate to perpetuate the off-topicness, I feel the need to disagree with you here. First, there are many who consider the Earth to be one grand organism. The human body is no more than a collection of cells, each in its own right living. Our stomachs are just as alive as we are, but each part of the system depends on the whole.

You say there is no repetitive motions or thought pattern within the universe? Again, you only make this statement of absolute due to your own athiestic bias. As a thiest, I find not only beauty in the cosmos, but also order. There could be order in the way galaxies come together, order in the way the fusion of stars permits life, order in the precise mechanics of gravity which allow our Earth to be where it is. You say there is no intention in the universe. The thiest observes such things and sees the will of God.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: LetThereBe As much as I hate to perpetuate the off-topicness, I feel the need to disagree with you here. First, there are many who consider the Earth to be one grand organism. The human body is no more than a collection of cells, each in its own right living. Our stomachs are just as alive as we are, but each part of the system depends on the whole.

I agree with you here and thanks for pointing that out. That has little effect on the overall argument though because the Earth contains living things, but "Earth" is not a live. The universe contains living things, but the "universe" is not alive. If you kept that mentality, I suppose it boils down to the DNA that constitutes life. That is the code for cell production and the basis of life.

Quote by: LetThereBe You say there is no repetitive motions or thought pattern within the universe? Again, you only make this statement of absolute due to your own athiestic bias. As a thiest, I find not only beauty in the cosmos, but also order. There could be order in the way galaxies come together, order in the way the fusion of stars permits life, order in the precise mechanics of gravity which allow our Earth to be where it is. You say there is no intention in the universe. The thiest observes such things and sees the will of God.

How do trillions of different sized random star positions, all at different distances, all with unique characters, all being born different ways, dying different ways, and still totally unknown for the most part, sound like order? It's Chaos! Obviously we have different ideas of what order is, so to discontinue off topic debate, let's agree to disagree.

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: dthmstr254 no, He knew it was there, He just didn't access it. just like if you knew you could jump a hurdle, and didn't, it doesn't mean you can't. the ability to NOT do something comes with the ability to DO something.

That is certainly not always the case. Just as often someone has an ability to not do something, it is because they can't do it.

Besides, omniscience is hardly an ability, so I find it to be a poor analogy regardless. Omniscience is more a state of being. It is more like being strong, or tall. Not something one just "turns off"

Regardless, there are countless examples of times the Father and Son are clearly seperated. "No one comes to the Father but through the Son." By your logic this means no more than no one comes to God's mind unless they come through God's body. Honestly ask yourself this, if you had read the Bible without ever having been indoctrinated, what would you believe about Jesus? His deity is suggested a very few times, (John 1, a few others) while the separation of the Father and Son comes up again and again.

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 How do trillions of different sized random star positions, all at different distances, all with unique characters, all being born different ways, dying different ways, and still totally unknown for the most part, sound like order? It's Chaos! Obviously we have different ideas of what order is, so to discontinue off topic debate, let's agree to disagree.

Heh, the order I witness has more to do with the physics and mechanics to allow such a universe to exist. If not for the perfect balancing of forces, the universe would be a very different place, certainly one in which we could not live to view it.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: LetThereBe Heh, the order I witness has more to do with the physics and mechanics to allow such a universe to exist. If not for the perfect balancing of forces, the universe would be a very different place, certainly one in which we could not live to view it.

Yeah, to which neither of us can successfully add an argument because we're not sure what the origin of these forces are, no what what we believe.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: LetThereBe That is certainly not always the case. Just as often someone has an ability to not do something, it is because they can't do it. Besides, omniscience is hardly an ability, so I find it to be a poor analogy regardless. Omniscience is more a state of being. It is more like being strong, or tall. Not something one just "turns off" Regardless, there are countless examples of times the Father and Son are clearly seperated. "No one comes to the Father but through the Son." By your logic this means no more than no one comes to God's mind unless they come through God's body. Honestly ask yourself this, if you had read the Bible without ever having been indoctrinated, what would you believe about Jesus? His deity is suggested a very few times, (John 1, a few others) while the separation of the Father and Son comes up again and again.

if you don't exercise, or play sports, or other things that require strength, what matters if you have strength. "I and the Father are one." "you have seen me, so you have seen the Father. he who has seen me has seen the Father." these two quotes straight from Jesus. and the seperation is the seperation of ROLES, not persons.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: another day It has no connection to the way you exist because of your known properties, because YOU are actually known to exist.

My dear, I fully agree with you that "YOU are actually known to exist" but with reference to and because of all the materialist properties associated with you. What makes you disagree that universe as property is similarly associated with SOMETHING? Do you not think "YOU" are as abstract as my imagined SOMETHING???? If you do not it is you wish!!!!

I must thank you for terming my idea SILLY because it is simple!!! :) But I request you to read the imaginary experiment suggested to SoccerfreakAB2 as follows:

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 I am a very reasonable person. If the answer were simple I would not have responded to your initial post with so many rejections and questions on everything you've put in them. There are so many certainties in science that you just love to ignore. Please don't be so ignorant.

Thanks a lot for being so! Well, one last imaginary experiment I may suggest, which might remove your bunble of questions, What Hell of force (YOU) in particular, because like you, I am also a reasonable person. Supposing, I am magnifying your body by special techniques (to be invented) to the size of universe. Would you not behave like a another universe only having at some regions life, some dead material, somewhere vacuum existing, somewhere order, somewhere disorder and what not. :rolleyes:

In that case YOU would become SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!! This might help you what the hell of unknown force (YOU), I am talking about.

This is my last statement asking you to think about!!! After that leave the ignorant, childish, silly what not Kuldeep alone!!!

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Kuldeep Thanks a lot for being so! Well, one last imaginary experiment I may suggest, which might remove your bunble of questions, What Hell of force (YOU) in particular, because like you, I am also a reasonable person. Supposing, I am magnifying your body by special techniques (to be invented) to the size of universe. Would you not behave like a another universe only having at some regions life, some dead material, somewhere vacuum existing, somewhere order, somewhere disorder and what not. :rolleyes: In that case YOU would become SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!! This might help you what the hell of unknown force (YOU), I am talking about. This is my last statement asking you to think about!!! After that leave the ignorant, childish, silly what not Kuldeep alone!!!

Why consider an experiment that is supposed to go in your favor of the argument when we already know its impossible. We don't know what's on the edge of universe nor can anything be as large as the universe and be "alive." Otherwise we would see it. Unless you're trying to imply that we've all been swallowed by some giant sea creature on planet Bacon Bits.