Do you live in paradise?

[Boetie]

It can be said the birth of religions is based on the judgement that man does not live in paradise. Almost all religions except for one that I know of blames man for this problem. The exception to this was the Gnostics, they blamed the creator God.

What I find curious is why did western civilization run to the blame man story and not the blame God story?

The blame man story leads to the least amount of sense. Let's take the fall story. If God didn't want man to fall he wouldn't put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden in the first place? It gets even more screwy, God kicked man out of the Garden so that he won't eat the Tree of Life. If God didn't want man to eat the Tree of Life why did he put the tree there in the first place? And what if man ate the Tree of Life before he ate the Tree of Knowledge? Can you now see how this blame man story leads one into a labyrinth.

You can also see why the Christians urges their followers to stay away from reason.

The blame God story is much more simple. With a that story like that you don't need priests or mullahs or rabbis or an organization.

Again which two stories makes more sense?

[Dadoo]

The "Blame Story" itself, sir, is the real ticket to lead a culture into an inevitable "Shame Story".
Shame creates an emotional vaccuum; a poison, once identified, needs the anedote.

Create a problem, illuminate it retrospectively, offer a solution.
This is a classic earthly power play.

Goethe says that "the Fall" symbolizes the human spirit's desire to incorporate itself with
base matter. Whether for the 'best' or 'worst' intentions, souls who yearn for (en) lightening experience inexplicably find themselves burdened here, in this 'fifth world', where water and mountains mix their elemental freely. This world is that of initial encumberment,
and eventual liberation from matter's cup.

Quaffing from said cup, regardless of environmental opinion is a state of mind that nears paradisical.

Paradise is where you find it.

For one, it may be the battlefield.
For another, the poppy field.
For some, at play in the fields of the lord, conviction is not bound to validation by another being.

Those who need religion, need the rules.
Those who don't, don't. What is obviated stands up to that which is hidden.

To the latter, both are in paradise.
To the former, neither are.... "yet".

Donkeys and carrots. May they never meet.
For if the flowers could sing, what a terrible song they would bring.

The 'truth' is all inclusive and somewhat unpallitable to those who choose not to quaff deeply the gifts of matter's cup.
In that, they are simply burdened by the double-edge sword of corporeality.

So says I,
Dadoo

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Dadoo The "Blame Story" itself, sir, is the real ticket to lead a culture into an inevitable "Shame Story". Shame creates an emotional vaccuum; a poison, once identified, needs the anedote. Create a problem, illuminate it retrospectively, offer a solution. This is a classic earthly power play.

One more realistic approach from you, Dadoo!! Reality is well identified and then placed equally well.

What is the harm in taking the things as they exist and enjoy!!! Lot lot of classic earthly power has been played and would continue to play. Alas!! Still the Reality is far far off from the scene or the reach of common man.

Goethe says that "the Fall" symbolizes the human spirit's desire to incorporate itself with base matter. Whether for the 'best' or 'worst' intentions, souls who yearn for (en) lightening experience inexplicably find themselves burdened here, in this 'fifth world', where water and mountains mix their elemental freely. This world is that of initial encumberment, and eventual liberation from matter's cup. Quaffing from said cup, regardless of environmental opinion is a state of mind that nears paradisical.

It is rather un-imaginable to think of the state of mind when liberated from the matter's cup. Would it be really paradisical??? Since that state of mind is not imaginable, is it not wise to derive satisfaction while residing in the matter's cup itself!!!! Worth thinking is how???

Paradise is where you find it. For one, it may be the battlefield. For another, the poppy field. For some, at play in the fields of the lord, conviction is not bound to validation by another being.

Oh, Dadoo you have said that Paradise is where you find it. I would add, One can find paradise anywhere and everywhere. The only problem is one should know what the hell this pradise is!!!! To my mind paradise is the state of satisfied mind. Mind satisfaction comes through fullfilment of desires. When desires are many, satisfaction of all of them is all the more difficult. Therefore, if we can have minimum desires (One), it would be easier to get satisfied. One is minimum as we can not have zero desire!!!! This is because, to have no desire itself would amount to ONE desire i.e. to have no desire!!! So theoritically it is not possible to be desirless and therefore fully satisfied. Hence, I conclude that permanent Paradise is not attainable. :(

However, I have derived a possibility to over power this trick for getting permanent satisfaction (Paradise Situation). In whatever condition we are at any point of time, we should be happy and more than satisfied, thinking that we are not in the worse situation than the situation we are in. :)

Those who need religion, need the rules. Those who don't, don't. What is obviated stands up to that which is hidden. To the latter, both are in paradise. To the former, neither are.... "yet". Donkeys and carrots. May they never meet. For if the flowers could sing, what a terrible song they would bring.

Partially true, but dare not to comment!!!

The 'truth' is all inclusive and somewhat unpallitable to those who choose not to quaff deeply the gifts of matter's cup. In that, they are simply burdened by the double-edge sword of corporeality.

Great!! This is absolute truth. Dadoo, where from do you get such a sentence frame. I am really impressed.

[Sandy]

Religion has taught us not to question authority. It started with the first tribes setting up limits for their members. The more rules the more members. We have evolved into near dunces where we spend half our time searching for the rules (religions) that we can live with. This is the attitude that got Bush elected in 2000. Americans have lost their ability to critically think about what they do and why they do it. Christianity filled the bill for the majority of Americans because the rules are clear and firm.

To me, religion made us weak and unable to handle our own lives or disasters. Katrina is a perfect example of people waiting to die. I worked for years with the Red Cross in California and the people of faith simply prayed rather than head for safe or high ground. During my work with the aftermath of earthquakes, fire storms and floods, the people in charge of the Disaster Team finally came up with some rules for people to follow if a "big one" hit their homes. Most ignored the rules and waited for God or the Government to help them.

[Dadoo]

"Great!! This is absolute truth. Dadoo, where from do you get such a sentence frame. I am really impressed."

-Everything is absolute truth.
Truth cannot be said {to me}
It can only be heard.
We are the very same, impressions aside.

You may ignore it
You may adore it
Either way, you stand before it.

Kuldeep-
"It is rather un-imaginable to think of the state of mind when liberated from the matter's cup. Would it be really paradisical??? "

Paradise is tied to matter. It is the "Quaffing" itself that is paradisical. What is Quaffed is indeed, irrelevance herself! (To he who is quaffing)

A rock band said, "Spit it out, if you don't like it."
In that, the "spitting" is the blossoming, the paradise. It is a liberation from preconception and duty.

You are a great thinker and quite a complementarian. I am glad for the validation, in the proving of singularity.

What is opinion? It cannot be real!
Haha.

Joy,
Dadoo

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Dadoo Paradise is tied to matter. It is the "Quaffing" itself that is paradisical. What is Quaffed is indeed, irrelevance herself! (To he who is quaffing)

I do agree with your this statement partially, provided you consider MIND also as matter only which to me is doubtful. The fact is paradise can not be basically get attached to physical matter and enjoy, unless Mind exists. Actually Pradise is attached to physical matter through mind. Then also mind is mystrically attached to the Singularity (Self, who is quaffing) which, is residing in the matter. The picture is something like this:

MATTER <------->MIND <------->SELF

Therefore I feel quaffing is SURELY paradisical. Yes, what is Quaffed is indeed, irrelevance herself! But it is cent percent relevant to both the mind as well Self. Self is the force behind all enjoyments and miseries but of course via a tool called "Mind". :rolleyes:

What is opinion? It cannot be real! Dadoo

Opinion already given as above!! To repeat, I would say Singularity (Self) is "Real" as long as attached to Matter (Body) through a peculiar tool (Mind). On leaving the body Mind continues to be attached to Self (combination of both has been termed as Soul). No sooner, Self with practice gets detached from Mind, it becomes "Un-real", rather beyound conception by common physical human as the true ONE (SINGLE)!!!!!! :eek:

[Sinner]

Boetie The blame man story leads to the least amount of sense. Let's take the fall story. If God didn't want man to fall he wouldn't put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden in the first place? It gets even more screwy, God kicked man out of the Garden so that he won't eat the Tree of Life. If God didn't want man to eat the Tree of Life why did he put the tree there in the first place? And what if man ate the Tree of Life before he ate the Tree of Knowledge? Can you now see how this blame man story leads one into a labyrinth.

Is the idea of self-control and self-discipline so foreign to you?

You can also see why the Christians urges their followers to stay away from reason.

Unfounded statement. Firstly what christians, secondly what commandement, rule, dogma urges to stay away from reason?

Sandy Religion has taught us not to question authority.

What religion is that? There are many examples when religion was a good enough reason to rebel against authority. Read up on Christian martyrs, they not only questioned the authority of Roman Emperors but completly opposed it.

Katrina is a perfect example of people waiting to die. I worked for years with the Red Cross in California and the people of faith simply prayed rather than head for safe or high ground.

This statement would only make sense if you gave us evidence that praying was less effective during the disaster then other actions.
Besides giving in to animal instincts to me is weaker then ignoring the possibility of death for faith.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Fascinating, here was I thinking this was paradise and things could only get worse for those of us whom a lot of people call sinners

[rez]

Quote by: Sinner Is the idea of self-control and self-discipline so foreign to you? Unfounded statement. Firstly what christians, secondly what commandement, rule, dogma urges to stay away from reason? What religion is that? There are many examples when religion was a good enough reason to rebel against authority. Read up on Christian martyrs, they not only questioned the authority of Roman Emperors but completly opposed it. This statement would only make sense if you gave us evidence that praying was less effective during the disaster then other actions. Besides giving in to animal instincts to me is weaker then ignoring the possibility of death for faith.

I think the point of Boetie's thread was to establish that there is no paradise. Ironically Utopia really means "No place", in which anybody who tries to create an utopian society only creates a dystopian society (hell). In a paradise there is no bad things that can harm or hurt the human being, therefore, should be no "tree of knowledge" in the first place. You see, god putting the tree of knowledge in the garden of eden disabled the garden itself from being a paradise from the start.

There never was and never will be a paradise on earth. The only thing that is stoping this is human nature itself. It started when people started making up fairy tale myths of magical supreme beings in the sky (god).

[Sinner]

rez I think the point of Boetie's thread was to establish that there is no paradise.

I realised this. Which of course is a lie.

There never was and never will be a paradise on earth. The only thing that is stoping this is human nature itself. It started when people started making up fairy tale myths of magical supreme beings in the sky (god).

I agree with the first half of your statement. However the assumption that paradise doesn't exist at all is unproveable.

[another day]

It is not a lie at all.

You can't prove paradise doesn't exist, but you also cannot proof that hogwarts school of witchcraft and wizardry does not exist. But with the proper rational one can easily discern that paradise is no more then hopeful thinking by creatures that have difficulty coping with pain. Paradise does not exist on any level and I am 100% sure of this. It is wishful thinking at it's worst.

[rez]

Quote by: Sinner I agree with the first half of your statement. However the assumption that paradise doesn't exist at all is unproveable.

I guess it would be unprovable to propose that man is imperfect, no? Although you would agree with this statement, it would make your asseration that "paradise is possible" - ignorant.

[PatrickHenry]

Religious speculation from the anti-God crowd is amusing... :eek:

[rez]

When god created the tree of knowledge he disabled the garden from being a paradise.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: rez When god created the tree of knowledge he disabled the garden from being a paradise.

Without knowing what Paradise is, we have been scratching our heads to know whether paradise is there and where it exists. :)

Would anybody take the trouble of defining Paradise first??????? Other things would be automatically cleared!!!! :eek:

[Sinner]

another day It is not a lie at all. You can't prove paradise doesn't exist, but you also cannot proof that hogwarts school of witchcraft and wizardry does not exist. But with the proper rational one can easily discern that paradise is no more then hopeful thinking by creatures that have difficulty coping with pain. Paradise does not exist on any level and I am 100% sure of this. It is wishful thinking at it's worst.

There is absolutely no evidence that paradise does not exist.

rez I guess it would be unprovable to propose that man is imperfect, no? Although you would agree with this statement, it would make your asseration that "paradise is possible" - ignorant.

Certainly man is imperfect, this is evidenced by existence of good and bad people, obviously this is a simplification, at the same time you cannot deny the fact that people have different degrees of moral perfection. There are known instances of both self-sacrifice as well as betrayal.

For exactly this reason there are minority of people who would be accepted in paradise. Salvation and eternal life is for select few. The only thing is that we ourselves make this choice.

rez When god created the tree of knowledge he disabled the garden from being a paradise.

No, He didn't. He disabled the garden from being a prison by providing a way out.

[Dadoo]

Kuldeep, You typed,

"I feel quaffing is SURELY paradisical. Yes, what is Quaffed is indeed, irrelevance herself! But it is cent percent relevant to both the mind as well Self. Self is the force behind all enjoyments and miseries but of course via a tool called "Mind". "

You have cent percent uncommon sense, to me!
Thank you and namaste.

I thought words just... go away.
"Paradise" a word.
A symbol of a thought.

"Mind" a word
The thought of a symbol.

Neither can be without the other.
Lest neither be either quotient nor divider.

But when I look very close, "He" is buried inside "Her"

Paradise is where you find it.

Thanks for the wonderful insights.

Soon,
Dadoo

[Athena]

Quote by: Sandy Religion has taught us not to question authority. It started with the first tribes setting up limits for their members. The more rules the more members. We have evolved into near dunces where we spend half our time searching for the rules (religions) that we can live with. This is the attitude that got Bush elected in 2000. Americans have lost their ability to critically think about what they do and why they do it. Christianity filled the bill for the majority of Americans because the rules are clear and firm. To me, religion made us weak and unable to handle our own lives or disasters. Katrina is a perfect example of people waiting to die. I worked for years with the Red Cross in California and the people of faith simply prayed rather than head for safe or high ground. During my work with the aftermath of earthquakes, fire storms and floods, the people in charge of the Disaster Team finally came up with some rules for people to follow if a "big one" hit their homes. Most ignored the rules and waited for God or the Government to help them.

Protestants questioned authority big time, that is why the US is a democracy. Unfortunately, the power of ancient Athens has been lost with the forgetting of their philosophical considerations that lead to Naturalism and democracy. Religion has hurt us not because of the failure to question authority, but the failure to question to reality. The Greeks looked at nature and asked their questions of what is so about the universe and humanity, and when literacy in their documents spread, so did Naturalism and democracy.

In the US the biggest problem is not religion, but replacing liberal education with education for technology. Christianity without the past education for a liberal democracy, is what Germany had. The US replaced Hitler's New World Order with their own, and that makes Christianity in the US the problem it was in Germany. This God is not the wise God of old, but is the autocratic God of Germany. :) It would nice if we could discuss Germany and religion, more fully, or Athens and philosophy and what made Athens different from the rest of the world.

[Athena]

Quote by: Kuldeep Without knowing what Paradise is, we have been scratching our heads to know whether paradise is there and where it exists. :) Would anybody take the trouble of defining Paradise first??????? Other things would be automatically cleared!!!! :eek:

Paradise, as in the Garden of Eden, is like Mount Olympus where the Greek Gods lived, except it is where the Sumerian Gods lived, and it is in Iran where four rivers once flowed. It would be great if people looked at reality for truth, instead of holy books. Sacred stories begin with a foundation in reality, but the reason for the original telling gets lost in time, and the analogies become mistaken for literal truths, and the result is believing something removed by time and place from "truth". The original truth was a about a flood and draught and a return to favorable conditions, when people settled in valley and became farming it.

[another day]

"There is absolutely no evidence that paradise does not exist. "

There is absolutly no evidence that god is NOT actually a purple monkey with a rainbow colored tail and eyes made out of cream cheese. Therefore you must believe this also. Also, there is no evidence that there does not live a race of green mice that have developed time travel on a far away planet. You must believe this also.

See? simply inventing silly things and saying "You can't prove them" is worthless because the person who invented them MADE IT THIS WAY. There is absolutly NO possible way to EVER prove that paradise exists ANYWAY. Just like with my purple monkey with the cream cheese eyes. Yet, you can easily see that my purple monkey god claim is bullshit, just like how I see your paradise claim is total, utter BULLSHIT.

But it's always funny when people think they are going to paradise when they die. Actualy more sad really...too bad they will never appreciate their short time of existance on life because you will cease to exist after you die buddy.