What Is A Religion?

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

marion
I will answer you first because not only is your reply first, but it is the easist to refute. :)

#1 What is easier to believe? Give me a break. Which came first God, or the physical laws that allow a God to exist. That is what you are basiclly saying. I do not see how that is an imporvement on' "The chicken or the egg."

#2 Life was given as a gift? In that case why is payment expected, gifts do not require payment.

#3 If man was created in His image, exactly what are His genitalia for??

#4 Er, apparently you did not understand my point since you just agreed while contradicting yourself...

#5 If it is God desire that no one go to hell, then either none of us are going are your perfect being isn't perfect...

Suggestion:
Do not enter a debate on the existence of God with scripture, this is like me writing on a piece of paper "I am God" and when anyone disagrees I point at the paper as proof...

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Fallen Angel
I take it you have read Mort by Terry Pratchett? That is one of the pivotial assumptions of that book. It is satire...

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Ismael
Are you telling me that taking that breath was not in the self-interest of the baby? Last time I checked survival weighed heavily in self interest.

On the other hand, why do you assume that self-interest is short-sighted? A morons self-interest is likely to only concern his next meal, but the genius may very well be thinking about making the world a better place for his great... grandchildren. Everyone else falls in between.

Also, why does a higher being have to be a part of it. I do not reject the existence of a God because I want to take credit for everything I do right. I reject God because I demand credit for all I do good or ill. God is not responsible for my mistakes, but He did not fix them either!

[Fallen Angel]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@Sep 1 2003, 12:14 AM Also, why does a higher being have to be a part of it. I do not reject the existence of a God because I want to take credit for everything I do right. I reject God because I demand credit for all I do good or ill. God is not responsible for my mistakes, but He did not fix them either!

Why should he fix them, you made them, God did'nt put you here to judge him.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

If he demands my tribute, then that is exactly why he put me here...

[Fallen Angel]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@Sep 1 2003, 01:31 AM If he demands my tribute, then that is exactly why he put me here...

He does'nt demand anything of you, demanding is what spoilt undisciplined children do.
He just wants due recognition and your humility to see this.

[marion]

GreatWyrm of Babylon what do you base your beliefs on? Your too smart for your own good. You can twist logic to your own end even if how you arrive at your assumption is bogus. You tell me not to use scripture, however, that scripture is where my faith is based upon, and I will always use it. What do you base your faith upon?

Have you read any of the scripture that I've posted? Did you read the 3 chapters in Romans? You looked at my respones assumed you knew what I was talking about, and refuted them with a tap on your keyboard.

1. Listen to scientist talk. They speak of the way things are designed in nature. If the world was created in an explosion... well what happens when something explodes. There's not much left. The fact that there is a complex design to nature proves (to me) that God does indeed exist. You've avoided the question and didn't answer it.

2. What payment are you talking about? Salvation is simple:
1. Confess your sins
2. Belive that Jesus was the son of God and you will be saved.
You keep talking about payment and demands, but it's not clear to me what you're getting at?

3. Again your just searching for justification. God created both man and woman. So is God a hermaphrodite? This is irrelavant. I believe Freud would say you have penis evny.

4. I didn't contradict myself. You said why didn't he know the end result? He did. You didn't read Acts 15:18.

5. de·sire
1. To wish or long for; want.
2. To express a wish for; request.
You're adding to the definition of desire because your looking at Him as a diety. Because he desires that none goto Hell doesn't mean he won't send you there. It doesn't change his perfectness. Again you avoided the my response with your cynicism.

[fedfem]

With all due respect, Marion, don't you think basing your faith on Scripture can lead to violence? The Bible, while having some wonderful points regarding philosophy, encourages violence and genocide. It is obvious the "God" written of in the old testament is not a god of love. I am not saying there is no god, only that the god written about in Scripture is not worthy of being a Creator. How can anyone disregard the violence and accept the few good philosophical points and call the complete works "Holy"? Perhaps you have never read the bible except for the few passages you mention and I apologize if that is the case. I have studied for over 25 years and have found no correlation between the diety in the OT and the Jesus in the gospels and the one preached by Saul/Paul. If you would like to debate this we could do so in a seperate thread.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

marion
No, I used logic to prove that an "omni-anything" could have no justification to produce mankind. Either from a mechanical standpoint or a psychological one. I have no need to listen to your explainations of what scientists say, I can argue on their level and see what they see.

[marion]

Scripture has been taken out of context before, and has led to violence. Certain muslim parties have decalred war on Christians. Anything has the potential to lead to violence. It's perversion of the scripture that leads to problems. I have offered scripture to let it stand for itself.

The old testament is full of bloodshed. The Israelites destoryed many nations. In the battle of AI God told them to destory everthing: man, woman, child and the animals. God destoryed Sodom and Gommora, the walls of Jericho fell. God's chosen people are the Jews. The jews rejected God. God then made provision for the gentiles. It's a difference of being under the Law then and under Grace now.

"If God is a God of love then why would he....?". He's also a Just God, a Vengeful God, a Merciful God, a God of Peace. People have a hard time because they judge God as though he is a man. He's above men. I have no right to question or judge him because my knowledge finite, whereas, His is infinte.

Someone earlier commented that "... we are abandoned...". The truth is that we have abandoned God, and justify oursleves for doing so by judging God on our level.

The Bible is my reference. I believe it by faith to be true.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Scripture only applies to arguements between religious sects, it is drivel to those that do not accept the existence of a deity, because it assumes that certain arguements are already accepted. But if you want to debate in drivel that is your right.

[Black Fox]

Originally posted by Exis@Aug 28 2003, 02:40 PM I think that there is a difference between religeon and faith. Religeon seems to be more ritualistic, where as faith seems more personal.

I think the substitution of the word 'faith' for 'religion' seems to be a modern trend... however, both faith and religion are still based on a belief in the scientifically untestable.

Exis, can you please expand on your distinction between religion and faith? Are you saying that if one person practices it then it is faith, but if millions do then it is a religion? If so, this would account for your observations that religions tend to be ritualistic. This is because when you are in the midst of many people doing the same thing, there is strong pressure to join them in doing that thing without asking why, and this becomes habit that persists even when away from the group.

[Gwala]

A quickkie that answers the topic's question
"The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion."
- L. Ron. Hubbard
Founder of the Scientology Religion

-Gwala

Gwala,
If you believe that crap you should get help. The only reason some religion is corrupt is because on non-believers or unfaithful people doing bad deeds. But you shouldn't accept that crap that Hubbard says. He started a cult not a religion. If you get the chance as him why most of the leading scientist in the world are finding more compelling evidence of an Intelligent Designer.

[PhanthomOps]

marion:
Quote: "To be a Christian and to accept & worship Christ is not a religion it's a decision. To become engrossed in denomination and loose the true meaning of whom you serve is religion."

Excellent and to the point :) :)
Personally, I am a Born-Again Christian / Pentecostal. To take your explination a step further, being a "Christian" is having a personal daily relationship with Jesus (God), through prayer, reading the Scriptures, and witness Him through your daily life.

Fallen Angel:
Quote: "He does'nt demand anything of you, demanding is what spoilt undisciplined children do. He just wants due recognition and your humility to see this."

Great point !!

fedfem:
Quote: "With all due respect, Marion, don't you think basing your faith on Scripture can lead to violence?"

Well, haven't those who do not recognize nor read the Bible lead us to violence???

Quote: "It is obvious the "God" written of in the old testament is not a god of love."
And: "I have studied for over 25 years and have found no correlation between the diety in the OT and the Jesus in the gospels and the one preached by Saul/Paul."

You are very mistaken in this statement!!!!! If you want, I can give you Scriptures that will prove the very opposite.

For those in doubt:

http://www.proofgodexists.org/anthropic_principle.htm
THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE: SCIENTIFIC PROOF THERE IS A CREATOR
The Anthropic Principle points out that there are over one hundred variables to this universe, that would have made life as we know it impossible, if they were even slightly different. This Universe had to be finely tuned to the conditions that make the evolution of life possible. Could this have happened by chance? Consider the following analogy. If you went down the street and saw a quarter on the sidewalk, you would think, naturally, "someone dropped a quarter." If you went down the street and saw a handful of quarters on the sidewalk, you would think, "Someone had a big hole in their pockets, or dropped a roll of quarters."
But if you went down the street and saw one hundred quarters on the sidewalk, and they were all carefully balanced precariously on their edges, you would have to think somebody did this deliberately." The Universe as we know it, is that carefully balanced. This theory is known as the Strong Anthropic Principle. The only other possibility other than that this Universe was created, is that there are so MANY universes, that the equivalent of one hundred quarters falling out of someone's pocket and ALL of them ending up balanced on their edges occurred, completely by random chance. This theory is known as the, "Weak Anthropic Principle. So if you are a rational thinker here are your only two choices. Believe this Universe was created, or that there are multitudes of universes.

http://www.proofgodexists.org/experiment.htm
ARE YOU BRAVE ENOUGH TO TRY AN IMPORTANT EXPERIMENT?
There is one way to know for YOURSELF that God exists and that Christ is God. Suspend disbelief for a few moments, and take a leap of faith and have the courage to pray the following prayer. Now you suspend disbelief for hours at a time to watch a movie or read a novel. You can surely do it for 60 seconds to perform an important experiment!
Leaps of faith are necessary in everything, even science. We wouldn't have made it to the Moon if Humanity hadn't taken a leap of faith that the technology to make it possible would be inventible and put in the effort to invent it. Nothing ventured nothing gained
If Christ is not real, you will be no worse off than you were before. If Christ is real you will have gained eternal life.

BEFORE, IF YOU ARE WILLING TO SAY THIS PRAYER - REMEMBER IT IS NOT AN EXERCISE IN JUST READING AND SAYING JUST WORDS - YOU MUST BE SINCERE IN YOUR HEART AND MIND AS TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING - TRUELY REPENT OF YOUR SINS, AND DETERMINE TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY TO READ HIS WORD AND FOLLOW ITS' GUIDANCE.

Dear Lord Jesus, I have trouble believing in you. Please help my unbelief. if you are real, please forgive me for my faults and help me to forgive others. Thank you for taking responsibility for my faults yourself by dieing on the cross for me, and help me to overcome my faults. Please come live inside of me and enjoy life with me and through me. Be My Lord and Savior. Help me to live for you and help others find you, Amen

If you pray that prayer, soon you will know for your that God is real, and that Jesus Christ is God, but if you don't pray it, you may or may not believe in Him, but you won't have his sweet Presence in your personal life. It is not enough just to believe. Even demons believe. No one learns anything without performing experiments. If you don't try to find God, you never will, because He won't go where He is not invited. Why should He waste His time on those that don't want Him, when there are millions that do? The Kingdom of Heaven is for volunteers. No one is ever dragged there kicking and screaming against their will.

[Pooeypants]

I like your sources, and it even dares to cite that there is scientific proof for God...even though strictly speaking, science does not really prove and the principal itself cannot be considered "proof" without more data.

[PhanthomOps]

Pooeypants:
Quote: " like your sources, and it even dares to cite that there is scientific proof for God...even though strictly speaking, science does not really prove and the principal itself cannot be considered "proof" without more data."

Thank you, I'm attempting to do more than just express my belief without some resources beyond the Scriptures.

Here are a couple more sources that you might consider.

This is too large and would take up tone of space, so here is the reference.
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html
A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD

This also is too large, however the major questions are listed below.
http://everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
1. Does God exist? Throughout history, in all cultures of the world, people have been convinced there is a God.
2. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
3. Does God exist? Mere "chance" is not an adequate explanation of creation.
4. Does God exist? Humankind's inherent sense of right and wrong cannot be biologically explained.
5. Does God exist? God not only has revealed Himself in what can be observed in nature, and in human life, but He has even more specifically shown Himself in the Bible.
6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God.