What Is A Religion?

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

JESUS WAS AN ELITIST!

Then mayb he was not so bad. (lol)

[Exis]

I take it that you two (GWOB and Jay) are not Christians, yet you do acknowledge that Jesus did exist. Interesting...

[An Infinite Number Of Monkeys]

eos

and even if someone claims to have no religion, there's still a thought in their head questioning whether or not there IS a supreme being out there...

Thats one hell of an assumption. I`ve spent twenty years studying faith(s) from an atheist viewpoint and Im pretty damn sure there aint no `supreme being`

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

If God does exist and is what the religions claim he is, we would not get along anyway. More likely someone with a warped sense of humor, simular to mine, wrote the bible anyway...

[CallMeIshmael]

As Far a i'm concerned, from the point of view of a soft-skeptic Existentialist (Sartre and Heidiger(sorry spelling)) I believe firmly that though religion can be a good thing, what it stands for is the ability of man to generate an ultimate justification for our actions, i asked a friend the other day, why drink milk? she replied, so i dont get osteioperosis, i continuted, aren't we all just gonna die anyway? what difference should it make? (that being the opinion of the Narcisist (spelling again) not mine) she continued that she wanted to keep on living as long as she good.

Now being a religious person, i know that many people would say at the end of this portion of the chain of justifcation that they wished to keep on living because it was in their nature given to them by god, most religions believe this. But cant we simply question the nature of god in the same way we did the seriousness of drinking milk? why does god exist? what is his nature? how can god be infinte?

The idea of religion simply prolongs human's ability to justify their nature, even though there can still be no end to the justification. That seems to be human instinct, we try and prolongue the agony and abandonment that comes if we have no nature from god to fall back on.

"...but if i have excluded god the father, who will create our values?" -Sartre

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

I see it as your typical paradox. We cannot answer the question who created man, so many are upset by it. So we invent God to explain where man came from, which satisfied us when we were savages with not enough time to think much about it. Then we got a little more organized, and had a little more time to think, so religion was born to make the issue complex enough to make people not have the time to see through the additional layers of smoke. The trend continues. The more organized man gets the more complex he has to make religion, to keep the average man from realizing that no matter how deep the smoke the original question was never actually answered...

[CallMeIshmael]

I agree Wyrm in some ways, religion has been used to control the masses (Marx) but outside of religious hiererarchy, isn't there that posibility that there is a god? i mean as far as i'm concerned, our lives (and astrophysics, theories on the orgin of the universe, evolution, etc) could all be governed by a logical fate, we say we have free will, but at the same time, there is the possibility that it's just some mass coensidence (spelling, yet again) and that there really is a god, but that it's just not in his nature to reveal his ways to us?

Yes, religion can be a beacon from which we create our nature, but at the same time, there is the posibility of religious fate, which controls everything in our lives, we just dont notice it because we have no other "freedom" by which to judge, everything is relative, our ideas of freedom, happiness, truth, black, red, yellow, 2+2=5

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Of course it is possible that a God exists, but it is also possibile that we are judged solely by how many jackrabbits we tie blue ribbons to. Since I am not equipped to determine if a God exists and what He would want of me, I do not worry about it and simply react to life with the responses I am equipped to deal with.

I personally do not care of a God exists, but if He wants to judge me about things He did not equip me to understand... He needs to have His head examined.

[CallMeIshmael]

ok then, you're right, we can't determine what god wants us to do, and because of that, it's going to be very difficult for an agnostic to find a nature in life,

let's assume there is no god, where do we go then? from where do we take our values if not from the basic principals of religion, then is there some kind of natural human ethics? some natural, ultimate truth? some people believe that there are universal basic rights, i for one do not think so, because i believe our nature does not come with instincts other than eating, sleeping, reproduction, and survival. Where do we get our ideas of truth if there is no god?

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Actually there is only one instinct amoung humans, self interest. The government wants you to believe that you exist to serve society. Religion wants you to believe you serve God. Your job wants you to believe that you serve them. Therefore they are practicing self-interest and if it is Evil so are they.

Of course, there is a lot of bad press about self-interest, I suspect it is circulated by your job, government, and church. (lol) Personally I see no advantage of irrational attempts to change humanity, other than continued employment for psychiatrists, and prison guards. Long term self interest is natural and would produce simular results, have fewer dissidents, as well as the fact that we could have a single mindset rather than cluttering our minds thinking in two opposite directions. Therefore a greater portain of the human mind could be free for daily problem solving, including what to do to improve the system.

Truth is a relative term among us mere mortals, all we can do is follow what appears to be the truth until we find a better one. Religion actually obscures truth by adding a load of unsolvable answers, rituals, and silly taboo's as if the search was not hard enough already. It is far more rational to solve the questions we can handle before adding additional variables, that we cannot even measure.

Ethics: How about free market? We all have needs and desires and those that provide them gain trade to purchase other services. A corrupt businessman with no forgiving church to defend him is not going to set an examples others wish to follow. If our society were to change today it would be bloody, I do not pretend otherwise, but in the long run people learn to plan ahead when their continued existence depends on it.

Morality: Who are we to judge that any system that allows children to be raised and the future to be planned for is immoral. I have no idea what morality would be adopted if irrational philosophy were to vanish, but I would not call it immoral.

Charity: The greatest 'charity' you can give to the world is to produce more than you take. If everyone actually did this we would not have shortages. Religious and State charity is the ridiculous notion that giving your resources to somebody else will acomplish the same end, even though they just added the additional work of moving all those resources. In other words if 2+2 does not equal 5, we should subtract 1 until we get 5.

[marion]

2. Jesus dictated what we should and should not do, see, if we don't do as he says, we go to Hell, hence he is forcing ppl to join the movement.

There is only one sin that Jesus listed that would send you to Hell, and that's rejecting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. Other sins will only bring death (Romans 6:23). Jesus didn't dictate anything to us. He gave us commands to be followed, and consequences for our actions, as a Father to his child. The difference is punishment is delivered in love and correction, not to intimidate or cause fear to bring others to submission.

To be a Christian and to accept & worship Christ is not a religion it's a decision. To become engrossed in denomination and loose the true meaning of whom you serve is religion.

[marion]

Here's another thought. If you classify Christianity as a religion, then there are really only two religions in the world.

1) Christianity who claims Jesus is the son of God.
2) And the rest that say he's not.

That can't both be right so either Jesus is the son of God or all "relgion" is vain because only one can be true.

[Fenix]

I always defined Christianity not as a religion but a type of religion. Being christian makes you a believer in Christ, then it breaks down into religions. For instance, Catholics, Baptists and Jehova's Witnesses would be considered Christians because of their belief in Christ and his teachings. Alot of religions would have to fall under Christianity, for instance even those paths of teaching that boast the worship of Satan/Devil would be considered a form of Christianity. Because as radical or "wrong" it may be Satanists or the like would have to belive in a Christ to consider themselves Anti-Christ or Anti-God so to speak.

But we all have our own beliefs, I'm skeptical of all of them. I myself am a Roman Catholic who believes the church has contradicted themselves through their teachings and habits (i.e "Thou Shall Not Worhip Any Idols", yet we have patrons praying to statues of saints). I'm fascinated by all religions.

Don't flame me for what I'm writing its just something I believe and I hope someone shares this way of thinking with me.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

marion
By the same logic I can say there are only two religions, mine and everbody elses. So what is your point???

BTW: Saying that failing to recognize Jeses as God is the only sin to send you to hell is silly. In order to do that you have to accept a lot of irrational garbage:
1) The existence of a God in the first place.
2) Rationalizing why a perfect being would create something and demand it worship him.
3) Rationalizing why God has genitalia, since Christianity demands that he be male.
4) Rationalizing why God did not know the result before he started, making the act of creation totally irrelevant.
5) Rationalizing that since he knows the result I was designed to reject him, and now he wishes to punish me for operating exactly the way I was designed to????

Interesting that my BTW became longer than the main body. (lol)

[Dislogic]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@Aug 30 2003, 03:41 PM marion By the same logic I can say there are only two religions, mine and everbody elses. So what is your point??? BTW: Saying that failing to recognize Jeses as God is the only sin to send you to hell is silly. In order to do that you have to accept a lot of irrational garbage: 1) The existence of a God in the first place. 2) Rationalizing why a perfect being would create something and demand it worship him. 3) Rationalizing why God has genitalia, since Christianity demands that he be male. 4) Rationalizing why God did not know the result before he started, making the act of creation totally irrelevant. 5) Rationalizing that since he knows the result I was designed to reject him, and now he wishes to punish me for operating exactly the way I was designed to???? Interesting that my BTW became longer than the main body. (lol)

LOL thats perfect! everything you just stated about God was just perfect man.

[Fenix]

I'm in total agreement with that. Well said.

[marion]

My point is this. Christianity claims Jesus is the Son of God and He is the only way to heaven. Religons claim that there are other ways to get to heaven. They can't all be right. They can all be wrong, but only one can be right.

1) The existence of a God in the first place.
- What's easier to believe? The universe was created by design, or an explosion. The existence of God is not something that will be proven true or false by man. The belief in God is by faith.

2) Rationalizing why a perfect being would create something and demand it worship him.
- God sent us a gift. It can be accepted or rejected. All you have to do is make a choice to confess, and believe.

3) Rationalizing why God has genitalia, since Christianity demands that he be male.
- Jesus was a male and referred to God as his Father. God said, "Let us make man in our image..." Genisis 1:26 & 27. I never heard anything about genitalia, and never really thought of it before. My opinion on this one is that you're searching for justification.

4) Rationalizing why God did not know the result before he started, making the act of creation totally irrelevant.
- Who said God didn't know the end result? Acts 15:18 He decided that it was better to have those who gave of themselves freely the chance to spend eternity with Him forever and suffer the pain of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins.

5) Rationalizing that since he knows the result I was designed to reject him, and now he wishes to punish me for operating exactly the way I was designed to????
- It was and is God''s desire that no one goes to hell. 2 Peter 3:9

Rationalizing is good, but the choice to accept Jesus is a decison based on faith of what's believed and not seen. It's all about a choice. I'm not writing this to change your mind of your own beliefs, that will never happen. The Bible says that no man comes to the God except through Jesus (John 14:6).

Denominations (which is what I would classify as religon) in themselves loose touch with the truth of Chrisitianity somewhere along the way. Evidence as offered by Fenix regarding the Catholic church and worship of saints. Preachers who sermonize against substance abuse, and have a problem with glutany, but don't consider it a sin to eat too much.

[CallMeIshmael]

wait a minute, the only human instinct is self-intrest? uh, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me, i mean, it is part of human nature, socrates said that all humans work for a greater good in their lives, that's the epitemy of justifications for why we do things according to some philosophys, but where on earth do you get the idea that self intrest is the only instinct?

how come babies who were thrown into rivers during the holocost knew to take breaths before they hit the water? they were to young to have observed it from their environment, so doesnt that make it a part of their nature?-an instinct

you're just trying to make human nature look like a bunch of BS, because you feel that the only 'nature' is the religious one. but in fact it is a philosophical ideal held by many that there are 3 bases for our actions, religion, nature, and reason. Religion being that ultimate justifcation can be tied to a higher being, nature using basic human instincts to create truth justications, and reason being our ability to judge truths based on our environment.

you're right wyrm on some levels, i believe strongly that humans are abandoned, even if there is a creator (which i do believe) he has left us here alone, and our actions here have no real relationship with the being. Thus, we are placed in the human condition that is abandonment, despair, because humans (on this idea) have no basis for their actions, no ultimate justification for their actions, no answer to the "where do i go from here?" question.

Take for example, a situation from Satrian philosophy, a new waiter attempts to act his part, he takes orders, but all the while, is humming a song on the tip of his tongue. this is not a part of his job as a waiter, but yet he still does it.

The human part of him is the part that humms. We all play act, the part he plays is that of the waiter. When we wake up in the morning, the human part of us wishes us to hit the snooze button, but the student part we play makes us get up. There is always the human part pushing through. It is for that reason, that no one can ever ligitimately say, I am a waiter, for the next second you could be fired, a person who is a hero could cower over. Nothing is. our existance is the only thing we can judge things by, nothing is definte, this is the flaw in human nature. We have no nature

[Fallen Angel]

What you believe in is what you will get.
You don't believe in God you will rot in the ground, you believe in the devil then you go to hell which is eternity without God , you believe in Buddha you will get to meet Jesus.
Basically if your good your soul/mind/aura/consiusness will go on after your body dies, if you die a coward or a liar you hav'nt got much hope at all.

[marion]

I think all of you would all find the answers to your questions, if you read Romans chapters 8, 9 and 10.

It describes the nature of man under the law of the flesh and the relationship between God and Man.