World Religions:

[dattaswami]

If anyone says that his/her religion is the only path to God and that other paths lead to hell, I have one humble question. The question is for every religion without any trace of partiality. The simple question is: Today I have heard your Religion and if I follow that, I reach God and if I refuse I will go to the hell for my own fault. This is very much reasonable. But before your ancestors discovered our country, the literature or even the name of your religion was not known to our ancestor and he could not reach God for no fault of him. But your ancestor reached God through your religion at that time.

Even if I assume that my ancestor will take rebirth now and will follow your religion to reach God, such possibility is ruled out because you say that there is no rebirth for the soul. Thus my ancestor suffered forever for no fault of him and the responsibility for this falls on the partiality of God. Had the God been impartial, He could have revealed your religion to all the countries at a time. Had that happened, my ancestor might have also reached God as your ancestor. Therefore your statement proves your own God partial.

The only way left over to you to make your God impartial is that you must accept that your God appeared in all the countries at a time in various forms and preached your path in various languages. The same form did not appear everywhere and the same language does not exist everywhere. The syllabus and explanation are one and the same, though the media and teachers are different. Can you give any alternative reasonable answer to my question other than this? Certainly not! Any person of any religion to any other religion can pose this question.

Moreover every religion states that their God only created this world. Unfortunately this world is one only and every God cannot create the same world. There are no many worlds to justify that each God created His own world. Therefore any human being with an iota of commonsense has to agree that there is only one impartial God who created this one world and He came in different forms to different countries and preached the same path in all the languages simultaneously at one time.

Let this logic sword of the divine knowledge cut the rigid conservatism of the religious fans in this world to establish the Universal Peace. I need not beg all these religious followers to be united and harmonious to each other for the sake of world peace. Such begging appeals are made enough in the past. The religious fans feel that there is no unity really in the religions but they have to be united since their kind hearts melted by these appeals. Thus a temporary change was only brought. At the maximum one generation of the followers got united. The next generation fights with each other because they feel that there is no real unity in them due to lack of the real unity in their religious scriptures.

A permanent solution for this does not lie in the begging appeals, which may or may not unite the followers. Even if the appeals unite such unity is not permanent. If the real unity in all the religious scriptures is exposed through the logical divine knowledge, the followers have to be united for generations together. Therefore, My attack is not on the hearts of the followers through love and kindness. My attack is on all the religious scriptures through intellectual logical analysis of divine knowledge. The unity of hearts through love can be only temporary. The unity of brains through intellectual analytical divine knowledge will be permanent. Hearts agree but brains realize. Agreement is temporary, but realization is permanent. Thus this is My first blow of My divine Conch shell for the permanent unity of all the religions aiming at eternal Universal Peace.

[Athena]

Quote by: dattaswami If anyone says that his/her religion is the only path to God and that other paths lead to hell, I have one humble question. The question is for every religion without any trace of partiality. The simple question is: Today I have heard your Religion and if I follow that, I reach God and if I refuse I will go to the hell for my own fault. This is very much reasonable. But before your ancestors discovered our country, the literature or even the name of your religion was not known to our ancestor and he could not reach God for no fault of him. But your ancestor reached God through your religion at that time. Even if I assume that my ancestor will take rebirth now and will follow your religion to reach God, such possibility is ruled out because you say that there is no rebirth for the soul. Thus my ancestor suffered forever for no fault of him and the responsibility for this falls on the partiality of God. Had the God been impartial, He could have revealed your religion to all the countries at a time. Had that happened, my ancestor might have also reached God as your ancestor. Therefore your statement proves your own God partial. The only way left over to you to make your God impartial is that you must accept that your God appeared in all the countries at a time in various forms and preached your path in various languages. The same form did not appear everywhere and the same language does not exist everywhere. The syllabus and explanation are one and the same, though the media and teachers are different. Can you give any alternative reasonable answer to my question other than this? Certainly not! Any person of any religion to any other religion can pose this question. Moreover every religion states that their God only created this world. Unfortunately this world is one only and every God cannot create the same world. There are no many worlds to justify that each God created His own world. Therefore any human being with an iota of commonsense has to agree that there is only one impartial God who created this one world and He came in different forms to different countries and preached the same path in all the languages simultaneously at one time. Let this logic sword of the divine knowledge cut the rigid conservatism of the religious fans in this world to establish the Universal Peace. I need not beg all these religious followers to be united and harmonious to each other for the sake of world peace. Such begging appeals are made enough in the past. The religious fans feel that there is no unity really in the religions but they have to be united since their kind hearts melted by these appeals. Thus a temporary change was only brought. At the maximum one generation of the followers got united. The next generation fights with each other because they feel that there is no real unity in them due to lack of the real unity in their religious scriptures. A permanent solution for this does not lie in the begging appeals, which may or may not unite the followers. Even if the appeals unite such unity is not permanent. If the real unity in all the religious scriptures is exposed through the logical divine knowledge, the followers have to be united for generations together. Therefore, My attack is not on the hearts of the followers through love and kindness. My attack is on all the religious scriptures through intellectual logical analysis of divine knowledge. The unity of hearts through love can be only temporary. The unity of brains through intellectual analytical divine knowledge will be permanent. Hearts agree but brains realize. Agreement is temporary, but realization is permanent. Thus this is My first blow of My divine Conch shell for the permanent unity of all the religions aiming at eternal Universal Peace.

I am not a religious person, so may be I shouldn't respond to your question, however, your last statement must be highlighted!

Hearts agree but brains realize. Agreement is temporary, but realization is permanent.

That is exactly what makes democracy superior to religion. Unfortunately, in the US, democracy was never taught adequately as an ideology originating from Athens that is highly dependent on math and logic. The closest we came was Deism. A belief that a God created the world and then stepped back leaving humans to discover and make their own laws, as the philosophers of Athens understood our reality. For cultural reasons, the Deist relied on the bible as a moral guide, but they didn't accept the bible as the word of God.

Our Statue of Liberty, represents what you said! She holds a book for literacy and a torch for enlightenment. It is as you say, realization is permanent. Enlightenment and realization are synonomous, and when correctly understood the morality of a democracy depends on this for morality. I have been struggling with the words for this concept for months. May be you can help.

The reason democracy, when correctly understood leads to liberty and justice for all, is exactly as you say, realization is permanent. Once we realize the law of cause and effect and how our actions play into this law, we can not do wrong. Something in us compels us to do right. Only when we convince ourselves of the rightness of something, can we do it. Then we can be suicide bombers and give our own lives for what we believe right. I am not saying this is right. It is the extreme of what people will do when they believe in the rightness of the doing. If these people were to realize the effect of their action is not the desired effect, they would not do such a thing, could not do such a thing.

Now religion teaches people what to think, and democracy teaches them how to think. Well not US democracy at this time, which is using education to produce products for industry, but when we had a better understanding of democracy, we used public education to teach people how to think. When we a trained for abstract and scientific thinking, we are enlightened and liberated. My Christian dominated country no longer remembers this, but are the New World Order ant colony afraid of being without an authority over them.

[dattaswami]

Quote by: Athena I am not a r........ver them.

Athena;

Secularism really means that the same medicine is present in every cup and you can take the medicine present in all the cups with equal liking. Secularism also means that you can take the medicine from any cup and respect other cups with equality. But the present secularism has ended in a horrible sense by which the medicine is not taken at all from a single cup or all cups. Such sense is misunderstood or misinterpreted secularism. Mahatma Gandhi prayed Eeshwara and Allah equally and that is the real secularism. But in the present secularism you neither pray Eeshwara nor Allah nor both with equality. Instead of such pseudo secularism, it is better not to have secularism at all. Let us like one cup only and take the medicine from that cup. It is better that India remains as a Hindu country and follow the spiritual knowledge of Hinduism sincerely. In the present false secularism, India neither takes the spiritual knowledge from Hinduism nor from any other religion. The government feels shy in uttering even the word God, which is above all the religions like the medicine, which is not related with any cup.

Even in the concept of economic equilibrium of the society, the spiritual knowledge gives the permanent solution. Capitalism is one extreme end and Naxalism is another extreme end. In between these two lie the socialism and communism. Capitalism grows industries by the help of a few rich people and by this several poor people earn their livelihood. Naxalism takes away the concentrated wealth of this few rich people and distributes it among the poor people by force. Socialism and communism try to achieve the same result of Naxalism without force. But these systems have not given permanent solutions. Duryodhana robbed the wealth of Pandavas. Dharmaraja requested Duryodhan to give at least a little kingdom and he was like the socialism. The other Pandavas threatened Duryodhan regarding the consequences of war like communism. Draupadi was highly emotional to kill Duryodhana on the spot like a Naxalist. But all these were controlled and guided by Lord Krishna who is the Lord in human form. When Krishna went to Kauravas, He requested like socialism, threatened like communism and showed His readiness to kill them through the vision of Viswaroopam like Naxalism. Therefore the decision of the ultimate divine government is final and when the right time comes the Lord Himself will become the Naxalist. In such case the present Naxalists are not necessary like Arjuna. Therefore all the people should act under the guidance of a spiritual preacher like Lord Krishna.

In fact Lord Krishna is the real capitalist who is the actual owner of this entire creation. Thus the spiritual knowledge can alone bring the real solution since the Lord is the ultimate authority. Dhrutarashtra who represents the human government supported Duryodhana. But Lord Krishna who was the ultimate government destroyed still Duryodhana. The capitalist tries to find out new ways to hide his wealth, when his wealth is forcibly taken away. Some times the capitalists are discouraged and do not apply their talent to grow the industrialisation. All these paths fail because they beat around the bush. The spiritual knowledge directly hits the bird in the bush. The spiritual knowledge emphasises the unreality of these worldly bonds. These family members were not related in the previous births and will not be related in the future births. Therefore these family bonds are present in this birth only and therefore they are temporary. Any thing that is temporary is always unreal (Yadanityam tat krutakam—Sankara), (Nasato—Gita). The dramatic bond, which is unreal before and after the drama is also unreal during the drama. All the human beings, weather they are your family members or outsiders are having the only relationship with you that is that they are your co-actors. You are cheating an outsider and rob his wealth for the sake of your family members. Both outsiders and the family members are equally related to you as the co-actors only. Why do you cheat one co-actor and favour another co-actor and earn sin? Your family members will not share your sin. They have not asked you to steal the wealth of others and feed them by it. This was the answer given by the family members of Valmiki, who was a robber. One day he tried to rob the sage Narada. Narada told him to go to his family members and put this question. Lord Krishna started Gita with the analysis of self.

All the family members are related to this gross body only in which the blood flows. The self, He referred in the second chapter of the Gita relates to the casual body along with its subtle body. When you fix the word “I” to the casual body along with the subtle body, all the relationships with the gross body vanish. The Lord compared the gross body to the external garment. This again reveals the unreality of the dramatic bonds that exist with these family members. Such divine spiritual knowledge can only transform the rich people and the solution for economic equilibrium becomes permanent. If you appeal a rich man to follow the economic justice without removing his blind family attractions, it is like reducing the temperature by applying ice on the body without killing the bacteria, which are responsible for the fever. Even the realisation of the unreality of these family bonds cannot make him active to continue with his work so that the poor people can be fed. He may become inactive because the ultimate goal is not clear even if he finds all the human beings equally related. The concept of existence of God and that He is pleased when you work actively with a broad view treating all the human beings equal should exist. Thus by following the path of justice and rejecting the injustice one can please the Lord. Pleasing the Lord gives the encouragement. Without this concept the practice of justice becomes dry and useless. This may gradually lead to the practice of injustice also. Thus the kingdom of atheists without God finally ends in the injustice. The atheist will not recognise the underlying divine government. He only accepts the visible human government that established courts and police as executive system for implementing the punishments given by court. Now the atheist will think that if he can mislead the court by false witness and intellectual advocates, he need not fear for the injustice, which gives more enjoyment by accumulation of wealth. He does not fear for God or hell. He fears only for courts and police and knows how to manage them. At present the pseudo secularism is almost like atheism.

In atheism you deny the God and in pseudo secularism you forget the God. Both are one and the same as far as the final effect is concerned. The atheist often argues to show the hell and heaven but I ask him one question, “Have you shown me the entire space of this cosmos and it’s boundaries to show the absence of the hell and heaven”? Of course my question also ends with 50% probability for both existence and non-existence of the hell. But if you practice the path of justice there is no harm to you even if the hell is absent. But if there is hell and if you do not follow the path of justice you are harmed severely (Nanyadasteeti—Gita). Thus the present system of pseudo secularism or atheism is a total failure because the divine government is not recognised properly. Even when we conduct the Independence Day celebrations we are neglecting the recognition of the help of the Lord in achieving the independence. Mahatma Gandhi achieved the independence with the grace of Lord Rama and he was always chanting that divine name. Remembering the fighters for independence without the Lord is like praising the Pandavas for the victory in the war without mentioning the name of Lord Krishna. When Jesus was mentioning about the kingdom of God, a fighter for the independence of the Jews from Roman-rule misunderstood that the new kingdom meant the independence of Jews. He approached Jesus for the assistance in such fight. Jesus clarified him and the new kingdom was meant for the revelation of the invisible divine kingdom. When that ultimate government sanctions, anything happens in this world. Thus in every walk of life, the Lord is neglected and forgotten. People think that praising the Lord is an individual activity and not a public activity. The divine atmosphere is not created in the public offices so that people forget God in the public places where their activities are important. Remembering God at the home only is not affecting their activities because in the home, they become inactive and take rest. Thus you have to extend the spiritual atmosphere in every inch of the earth to remind the government of God that is functioning everywhere and always. I was very much pleased to find the printed statement on the dollar note, which says, “In God, we trust”. On the currency notes, the familiar pictures of God should be printed, which remind the divine administration. The pictures of the heads of human government and other natural scenes should be avoided.

[dattaswami]

Quote by: Athena I am not ........over them.

Athena;

It is the duty of the human government to propagate the spiritual knowledge in the public starting from a child, which alone can control the sins like robbing the money of others, corruption, nepotism etc. The blind liking for family members, relatives, caste, religion, sex, and nationality are responsible for various present social problems. The blind love to the family members is responsible for stealing the wealth of others and corruption. The blind love for the relatives is responsible for the nepotism. The blind love for the caste and sex is responsible for electing the undeserving people into the government. The blind love for religion is responsible for criticizing the other religions and sometimes killing the people of other religions in mass. The blind love for the nation is responsible for the wars in the National boundaries. If one realizes the spiritual knowledge and finds that all the living beings are like brothers and sisters only and that one God alone is the divine father and that all this Earth is one nation under the rule of the God, all these problems vanish. Krishna was just witnessing the mutual killing of his relatives in which even his sons and grandsons were killed. He protected the Pandavas from the brutal killing by Asvatthama though they were not his sons and grandsons. His protection was based on their merit. He made the son of Sandeepani alive though he was not of His caste. He did not give life to Abhimanyu who was his own nephew. He gave immense wealth to Sudama who is not related to Him and does not belong to His caste. He took away all the wealth and killed Duryodhana though he was his relative. The favour of the Lord was based on merit and the punishment was based on the crime only. All the above bonds were unreal and dramatic in His eyes

I repeat again and again that the government should take all the efforts to propagate the spiritual knowledge at every level and in every corner. Any activity in the public office should be done in the divine atmosphere. All the places of public activities must be converted into temples. If secularism is followed, let the temples have statues of all religions. Every citizen should feel that the omnipresent and omnipotent Lord watches his or her activity. If funds are required to propagate such spiritual knowledge, let the funds of the temples be used for such propagation. The temple funds should be spent for such purpose to bring the constant awareness of the Lord and His all-pervading power that controls each and every activity of the creation. Such programs can be done only under the headship of the religious saints who are well aware of the spiritual knowledge. The officials of the government cannot effectively do such program unless they are well-versed scholars of spiritual knowledge (Jnaninah tattvadarsinah--- Gita) (Brahmanah sammarsimah---Veda). The government officials without any spiritual knowledge will use the funds for public facilities, which should be done only by the revenue collected. The money of God should be spent only for bringing the awareness of God and His rule everywhere. The funds are meant for the propagation of spiritual knowledge and devotion. Any misuse for other than this divine purpose is the greatest sin and the Lord will punish the government. Religious priests manage the funds of the Vatican church and the government is not putting its finger in it. They are managed for propagating the spiritual knowledge and devotion. By this the Lord is pleased and the western countries are blessed with all comforts. India should learn this aspect from the west.

When the government is forgetting its duty to propagate the spiritual knowledge and devotion, the responsibility false finally on the underline ultimate government for which the Lord is the head. Therefore the Lord comes down in human form to propagate this spiritual knowledge and devotion. The Lord also collects some tax from you for His mission. He has already given some facilities like human birth, longevity, health, wealth etc. The human government is collecting the tax without caring for your problems. But the Lord asks for the tax from all of you, which is the time, energy or work and money, which you are wasting in illusory entertainments. You can do the sacrifice of your work (karma sanyasa) or sacrifice of fruit of work (karma phalatyaga) or both according to your convenience. The liberated souls sacrifice fully, which is impossible for all and such liberated souls are blessed by the Lord to be His constant associates, which is the permanent result. The former case is Pravrutti and the latter case is Nivrutti. One should keep Nivrutti as ultimate aim. Pravrutti is like scoring the pass mark in the examination. Nivrutti is like achieving the rare gold medal from the university. The teacher who aims that all the students should at least pass should not advice the pass marks as the goal. He will advise the achievement of the gold medal as the goal of every student. Lord Krishna was such excellent teacher who taught about Nivrutti only throughout Gita. In the beginning of the Gita Lord Krishna stated that he came to establish justice or Pravrutti on this earth (Dharma samstapanarthaya—Gita). This is like a teacher stating that his aim is to see that all the students in his section should pass the examination. In that case the teacher should stress on the pass and similarly Krishna should have stressed on the path of justice. Had Krishna done this, Gita should have become another scripture of ethics like Manu Smruti containing all the rules of justice like a legal constitution. But Krishna emphasised on the path of salvation from the worldly bonds and devotion to the Lord (Nivrutti) for achieving the establishment of justice (Pravrutti).

The teacher is fixing the achievement of gold medal to every student so that every student by putting such hectic effort will at least pass. If you put pass mark as the goal, then every student puts least effort and may fail. If the destruction of bonds is put as the goal at least the bonds will become weak. This is the excellent tactic of Lord Krishna in putting the higher goal to achieve the lower goal. In Bible, Jesus also adopted this tactic and He desired that His dearest disciple should hate the family bonds including the bond with his life. Hating means that one should see his family members as his enemies. When such extreme goal is fixed at least the blind attraction in the family bonds is reduced. In fact these family members were really your enemies in your previous birth. Since you have robbed their wealth, they have come to you to get back their money with interest. This principle of justice is forcing you to earn the money and by such force, you are doing the sins and get punished. When you rob the wealth of somebody by force, you have to not only pay it with interest but also should be punished. Thus your blind love on your family members is responsible for your sins and the consequent punishment.

Mohammed does not mention Nivrutti in his scripture because He claimed himself as messenger of God only. Nivrutti means loving and serving the Lord in person. For that God in human form is essential. But Islam believes only formless God and therefore it is not possible to love and serve the God directly. Therefore the path of Nivrutti has no place in Islam. Pravrutti itself pleases the Lord and such pleasing the Lord is ultimate in Islam. In Hinduism, Christianity and Islam the ultimate enquiry and the punishment of sinner in the hell are common aspects. Gita introduces the teacher and fixes the gold medal as the ultimate goal for achieving at least a total pass. Bible mentions the existence of teacher in the class and explains both the goals (passing and gold medal) separately. Quran also introduces the teacher to the class but shows the single goal of passing the examination. The scripture of Buddhism does not introduce the teacher and emphasizes on passing the examination and to pass the examination by self-reading. But the Buddhists must realize that the teacher is Buddha Himself, since they surrender to Buddha (‘Buddham sharanam”). The scripture of Jainism is similar to the scripture of Buddhism but the Jains should know that the teacher is Mahavir Jain Himself. The Jains also salute the liberated souls who are the top devotees. God pervades all over the human body in the case of Human Incarnation. But God dwells in the hearts of top devotees also and thus salutations to liberated souls are salutations to the Lord. All these are Human Incarnations and are represented by the word Teacher here.

[Jack]

Thus the present system of pseudo secularism or atheism is a total failure because the divine government is not recognised properly.

How can the non-belief in something be a "failure"? I don't believe in your, or anyone else's god. There is no failure of anything in that statement.

[Athena]

Quote by: Isherwood How can the non-belief in something be a "failure"? I don't believe in your, or anyone else's god. There is no failure of anything in that statement.

It is a failure to believe, is it not? It also probably a failure to study.

It is time for me to run, so I don't have time to respond to Dattaswami adeuqately, now in a rush in will say, do you suppose if we continue to pursue technological answers to our problems, we might resolve them? Spiritual beliefs are nice, but they don't feed the masses as good technology does, and well fed people seem to think everyone should have a higher standard of living. No selling children as indentured slaves. No ignoring the needs of the poor that bring on premature death. We must resolved the earthy problems to resolve the spiritual ones. It is much easier to believe Krisha is good, when life is experienced as good.

I suspect a reason Christians are focused on evil is because life was not so good for them in the beginning. Nor through much of European history was life so good. Christianity improved with bellies were full.

[Abdullah]

Quote by: dattaswami If anyone says that his/her religion is the only path to God and that other paths lead to hell, I have one humble question. The question is for every religion without any trace of partiality. The simple question is: Today I have heard your Religion and if I follow that, I reach God and if I refuse I will go to the hell for my own fault. This is very much reasonable. But before your ancestors discovered our country, the literature or even the name of your religion was not known to our ancestor and he could not reach God for no fault of him. But your ancestor reached God through your religion at that time. Even if I assume that my ancestor will take rebirth now and will follow your religion to reach God, such possibility is ruled out because you say that there is no rebirth for the soul. Thus my ancestor suffered forever for no fault of him and the responsibility for this falls on the partiality of God. Had the God been impartial, He could have revealed your religion to all the countries at a time. Had that happened, my ancestor might have also reached God as your ancestor. Therefore your statement proves your own God partial. The only way left over to you to make your God impartial is that you must accept that your God appeared in all the countries at a time in various forms and preached your path in various languages. The same form did not appear everywhere and the same language does not exist everywhere. The syllabus and explanation are one and the same, though the media and teachers are different. Can you give any alternative reasonable answer to my question other than this? Certainly not! Any person of any religion to any other religion can pose this question. Moreover every religion states that their God only created this world. Unfortunately this world is one only and every God cannot create the same world. There are no many worlds to justify that each God created His own world. Therefore any human being with an iota of commonsense has to agree that there is only one impartial God who created this one world and He came in different forms to different countries and preached the same path in all the languages simultaneously at one time. Let this logic sword of the divine knowledge cut the rigid conservatism of the religious fans in this world to establish the Universal Peace. I need not beg all these religious followers to be united and harmonious to each other for the sake of world peace. Such begging appeals are made enough in the past. The religious fans feel that there is no unity really in the religions but they have to be united since their kind hearts melted by these appeals. Thus a temporary change was only brought. At the maximum one generation of the followers got united. The next generation fights with each other because they feel that there is no real unity in them due to lack of the real unity in their religious scriptures. A permanent solution for this does not lie in the begging appeals, which may or may not unite the followers. Even if the appeals unite such unity is not permanent. If the real unity in all the religious scriptures is exposed through the logical divine knowledge, the followers have to be united for generations together. Therefore, My attack is not on the hearts of the followers through love and kindness. My attack is on all the religious scriptures through intellectual logical analysis of divine knowledge. The unity of hearts through love can be only temporary. The unity of brains through intellectual analytical divine knowledge will be permanent. Hearts agree but brains realize. Agreement is temporary, but realization is permanent. Thus this is My first blow of My divine Conch shell for the permanent unity of all the religions aiming at eternal Universal Peace.

Salaam dattaswami,

I will let you ponder over these verses from the Holy Quran:

[87.18] Most surely this is in the earlier scriptures,
[87.19] The scriptures of Ibrahim and Musa.
[53.36] Or, has he not been informed of what is in the scriptures of Musa?
[13.7]And the disbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide.
[35:24]and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them
[25: 52]. If WE had pleased, WE could have surely raised a Warner in every city;

In Islam we accept all the Prophets, from Buddah(as) to Jesus(as) to Muhammad(saw). Now the problem is people, when Allah sent down his Prophets to convey the Message of God society has twisted around the origninal message and has curropted
the original teachings and Holy Scriptures. Now you might ask well why hasnt this happened to Islam and the Holy Quran.:

[2:3]This is a perfect Book;there is no doubt in it;'it is a guidance for the righteous'.

Divine protection :

We have sent down this book and verily We shall safegaurd it(15:10)

[LDS]

Quote by: Abdullah Salaam dattaswami, I will let you ponder over these verses from the Holy Quran: [87.18] Most surely this is in the earlier scriptures, [87.19] The scriptures of Ibrahim and Musa. [53.36] Or, has he not been informed of what is in the scriptures of Musa? [13.7]And the disbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide. [35:24]and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them [25: 52]. If WE had pleased, WE could have surely raised a Warner in every city; In Islam we accept all the Prophets, from Buddah(as) to Jesus(as) to Muhammad(saw). Now the problem is people, when Allah sent down his Prophets to convey the Message of God society has twisted around the origninal message and has curropted the original teachings and Holy Scriptures. Now you might ask well why hasnt this happened to Islam and the Holy Quran.: [2:3]This is a perfect Book;there is no doubt in it;'it is a guidance for the righteous'. Divine protection : We have sent down this book and verily We shall safegaurd it(15:10)

Just Curious, Where do you place Joseph Smith?

[Plasma Snake[D]]

This thread ties in to my belief that we develop a custom religion slowly over time through the collective consciousness of a culture. My ancestors worshipped Zeus and all that, but now my nearest relatives worship Christ. Hmm? Remember that death is a verry verrrrrrry scary thing that would paralyze any valiant heart if it were not for faith in something, anything. This realization of inconsistency leads me to belive that there is no God.

[G. Adams]

Anyone who claims that there own religion is, as a fact, the one true religion, is also claiming that they are infallible. Only God is infallible. The certainty of your religion, or atheism, begins and ends with yourself.

[Athena]

Dattaswami, you are such a pleasure for discussion, and I hope you develop the ability to discuss one subject at a time.

Economic equilibrium is of course a major concern of all religions. Jews have made major contributions to economic equilibrium, but unfortunately they seem to restrict themselves to carry for the own, and it seems, often this can be at the expense of others.
Palestine is the most glaring example of this today, so really should be considered a democracy.

I have attempted to address this religion and money issue, but none showed any interest in it. Christians took Jewish charity and applied it to everyone. In fact charity was a major method of converting people to the religion. Islam also promotes charity. Both Christians and Moslems opposed urury strongly. Today, it seems only Moslems are opposing usury. Calvinism, a branch of Christianity, made capitalism possible for Christians. Before this, Christians relied on Jews for loans. I have heard Jews picked up usury from Babylon.

Quakers, another branch of Christianity, stressed fairness and honesty. The Amish, another branch of Christianity take this a step further by rejecting modern technology which would interfer with their religious lives. So the concern is not just about money, but also about how the things we buy effect our lives.

Humans, of course, are one of the things we buy. When we hire a man and a woman, we are not just hiring a man and woman, but a father and mother. We are not giving adequate thought to their fair compensation and the needs of their children. I am not so sure if hiring people for laborer is so far from slavery. The Torah and Christian bible sanction slavery which is the owning of human beings, to do with them what one pleases. I have heard in Indian children can be sold as indentured slaves. Child labor around the world is something we need to consider more carefully. I am not sure if religions deal with such economic matters adequately? Nor am I sure of how naturally we deal with such matters.

Whenever people put self first, and do not treat the other as s/he would wants to be treated, there will be wrongs to others. When people are abused, they assume abuse as normal, so it isn't even as simple as treating others as one wants to be treated. There must also be self awareness. Self awareness and awareness of the other. I am sure people working for their own place in heaven are not going a very good job of establishing economic equilibrium.

[Athena]

Democracy comes out of a belief in the gods. Our understanding of the god thing has changed, but if we remove God from democracy, we don't exactly have democracy. That is because democracy is a wholistic contemplation of life. It includes spiritual concerns.
Self government involves everyone, not just self. In away democracy is secularism, because it is not bound to organized religion, but we shouldn't go to the extreme of asking none of the questions religion ask. That is athieism destorts democracy to the same degree being bound to anyone religion would distort democracy. A democracy must leave the question open and forever search truth.

[Athena]

Quote by: Abdullah Salaam dattaswami, I will let you ponder over these verses from the Holy Quran: [87.18] Most surely this is in the earlier scriptures, [87.19] The scriptures of Ibrahim and Musa. [53.36] Or, has he not been informed of what is in the scriptures of Musa? [13.7]And the disbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide. [35:24]and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them [25: 52]. If WE had pleased, WE could have surely raised a Warner in every city; In Islam we accept all the Prophets, from Buddah(as) to Jesus(as) to Muhammad(saw). Now the problem is people, when Allah sent down his Prophets to convey the Message of God society has twisted around the origninal message and has curropted the original teachings and Holy Scriptures. Now you might ask well why hasnt this happened to Islam and the Holy Quran.: [2:3]This is a perfect Book;there is no doubt in it;'it is a guidance for the righteous'. Divine protection : We have sent down this book and verily We shall safegaurd it(15:10)

Islam begins with the God of Israel and this was not a universal God, but strictly a God of these tribal people. The world would not be in such a mess today, if the God of Israel had begun as a universal God. There are many warners, and they are not all confined to what people who are committed to one religion expect a warner to be. They include Einstien and Galileo and those who convinced religious people that germs caused infection and disease and sanitation is necessary. Men of science are also from God, but unfortunately those who cling to holy books written long ago, are not doing a good job of accepting all voices from God.

[Athena]

quoting Daataswami- When the government is forgetting its duty to propagate the spiritual knowledge and devotion, the responsibility false finally on the underline ultimate government for which the Lord is the head. Therefore the Lord comes down in human form to propagate this spiritual knowledge and devotion. The Lord also collects some tax from you for His mission. He has already given some facilities like human birth, longevity, health, wealth etc.

Excuse please, but what people call holy men have done a very poor job of giving us longevity, health, and wealth. Those things that really contributed to the goodness of lives come from worldly people thinking of life on earth. How sad that religions have not given these people the recognition they deserve. In fact, religion has often stood in their way.
Way too often, religion would have use endure that which should be changed.

[Abdullah]

Quote by: Athena Islam begins with the God of Israel and this was not a universal God, but strictly a God of these tribal people. The world would not be in such a mess today, if the God of Israel had begun as a universal God.

Salaam Athena,

This is Sruah Fatiha (The Opening) of the Holy Qruan:

Arabic:

بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمـَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
الرَّحْمـنِ الرَّحِيمِ
مَـالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ
اهدِنَــــا الصِّرَاطَ المُستَقِيمَ
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنعَمتَ عَلَيهِمْ غَيرِ
المَغضُوبِ عَلَيهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّينَ

English

1:1. In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful

1:2. All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,

1:3. The Gracious, the Merciful,

1:4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

1:5. Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.

1:6. Guide us in the right path --

1:7. The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.

Quote by: Athena There are many warners, and they are not all confined to what people who are committed to one religion expect a warner to be. They include Einstien and Galileo and those who convinced religious people that germs caused infection and disease and sanitation is necessary. Men of science are also from God, but unfortunately those who cling to holy books written long ago, are not doing a good job of accepting all voices from God.

Well by Warner I meant Messenger, Galileo, Einstein, Newton etc have done great worldy things but not much for the cause of religion.

[Athena]

Quote by: Abdullah Salaam Athena, This is Sruah Fatiha (The Opening) of the Holy Qruan: Arabic: بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمـَنِ الرَّحِيمِ الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ الرَّحْمـنِ الرَّحِيمِ مَـالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ اهدِنَــــا الصِّرَاطَ المُستَقِيمَ صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنعَمتَ عَلَيهِمْ غَيرِ المَغضُوبِ عَلَيهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّينَ English 1:1. In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful 1:2. All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds, 1:3. The Gracious, the Merciful, 1:4. Master of the Day of Judgment. 1:5. Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help. 1:6. Guide us in the right path -- 1:7. The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray. Well by Warner I meant Messenger, Galileo, Einstein, Newton etc have done great worldy things but not much for the cause of religion.

What a challenging reply. I have given this much thought over the years. I don't see a big difference between Socrates and Jesus, except we deified Jesus and didn't deify Socrates.
Why do you suppose that is? Why decide one is a messenger from God and not the other?

Now Einstien and others believed they recieved knowledge from God. There are those who believe there is a universal intelligence and that we can access this. I am one of them. How do determine what is from God and what is not?

Why would God tell us men are rewarded with virgins, but not the importance of sanitation, or not the principles of math that make it possible for us build all the things that make our lives better? It seems nonsense to me, to think God would tell us one thing, making a good life dependent on dying, and not the rest of how to make our lives better right here and now. And if God reveals all things to us, why worship some people and not others? Personally, I think it is very wrong deify people. I think we can have faith in a God without deifying people. I think the world would be a much better place if we didn't divide ourselves as religion does. Seriously, why tell us of how to have to good life after we are dead, instead of how to have a good life while we live? Math and science are vital to our blessings.

PS. if Moslems worship only Allah, why object to charactures of Mohamed? without Mohamed, want would make Islam different from Judaism or Christianity? These religions are separated by who people deifying. I think this is wrong and wish you all would stay with the one God and stop dividing yourselves with deified people.

[another day]

"Why would God tell us men are rewarded with virgins, but not the importance of sanitation, or not the principles of math that make it possible for us build all the things that make our lives better? It seems nonsense to me, to think God would tell us one thing, making a good life dependent on dying, and not the rest of how to make our lives better right here and now. And if God reveals all things to us, why worship some people and not others? Personally, I think it is very wrong deify people. I think we can have faith in a God without deifying people. I think the world would be a much better place if we didn't divide ourselves as religion does. Seriously, why tell us of how to have to good life after we are dead, instead of how to have a good life while we live? Math and science are vital to our blessings."

Exactly...if any of the crockpot religions like Islam and Christianity were true, wouldn't one expect some divine scientific or mathematical information greatly ahead of their times to come from god? Of course not because the bible/koran is not the word of god, but the word of a bunch of primitive men who didn't know about bacteria and all that good stuff. Everything about organized religion is directly indicative of the time period in which it was invented.

[LDS]