Best way to debate Christians

[orgaelin]

Hi folks. I was thinking, all of us anti-christian types tend to focus on one particular tactic when we are debating with christians. We focus on innaccuracies, impossibilities, and so on. But I think we're missing something.

These people take what they read in the bible as literal and true. So let's join with that, and instead hold them to account for what it says. Forget the contradictions, and instead ask: why do you praise a god who would 'dash the heads of babies against the rocks', or put sword through the bellies of women whether pregnant or not? Why praise a god who places such extreme demands upon you, and threatens you with eternal damnation if you fail to live up to his considerable requirements? Why are so many Western christians members of a higher social class, the class for whom Jesus said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for them to enter heaven? Why put your faith in a god who the bible says lies to you, tests your faith, and breaks all of his own rules? More importantly... why should we?

Rant over!

But don't you think these are better questions to be asking? Does it matter whether bethlehem existed at the time of Jesus' supposed birth? These are just facts, and it's not facts that these people base their religion on, it's faith.

~ Org.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: orgaelin Hi folks. I was thinking, all of us anti-christian types tend to focus on one particular tactic when we are debating with christians. We focus on innaccuracies, impossibilities, and so on. But I think we're missing something. These people take what they read in the bible as literal and true. So let's join with that, and instead hold them to account for what it says. Forget the contradictions, and instead ask: why do you praise a god who would 'dash the heads of babies against the rocks', or put sword through the bellies of women whether pregnant or not? Why praise a god who places such extreme demands upon you, and threatens you with eternal damnation if you fail to live up to his considerable requirements? Why are so many Western christians members of a higher social class, the class for whom Jesus said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for them to enter heaven? Why put your faith in a god who the bible says lies to you, tests your faith, and breaks all of his own rules? More importantly... why should we? Rant over! But don't you think these are better questions to be asking? Does it matter whether bethlehem existed at the time of Jesus' supposed birth? These are just facts, and it's not facts that these people base their religion on, it's faith. ~ Org.

in case you hadn't noticed, those words are found in prophetic books, not commands. they are prophecies referring to what foreign nations would do. the Assyrians did quite a lot of that.

[underbear1]

You need to debate religious beliefs with OTHER religious beliefs, that you state are every bit as valid for you as their's are to them, just pick a belief system to use for the debate, if you don't adhere to a belief system in your real life.Logic will get you nowhere in a religious debate, but the right to hold another belief system is something they can get next to.

[Chris]

Quote by: orgaelin Hi folks. I was thinking, all of us anti-christian types tend to focus on one particular tactic when we are debating with christians. We focus on innaccuracies, impossibilities, and so on. But I think we're missing something. These people take what they read in the bible as literal and true. So let's join with that, and instead hold them to account for what it says. Forget the contradictions, and instead ask: why do you praise a god who would 'dash the heads of babies against the rocks', or put sword through the bellies of women whether pregnant or not? Why praise a god who places such extreme demands upon you, and threatens you with eternal damnation if you fail to live up to his considerable requirements? Why are so many Western christians members of a higher social class, the class for whom Jesus said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for them to enter heaven? Why put your faith in a god who the bible says lies to you, tests your faith, and breaks all of his own rules? More importantly... why should we? Rant over! But don't you think these are better questions to be asking? Does it matter whether bethlehem existed at the time of Jesus' supposed birth? These are just facts, and it's not facts that these people base their religion on, it's faith. ~ Org.

I have sometimes tried not to focus on the contradictions in the bible and focused on the death and killing. Then I get the tried and tested "But, that was the old testament... God was much nicer in the new testament!" :rolleyes:

[thatoneguy00]

Quote by: orgaelin Hi folks. I was thinking, all of us anti-christian types tend to focus on one particular tactic when we are debating with christians. We focus on innaccuracies, impossibilities, and so on. But I think we're missing something. These people take what they read in the bible as literal and true. So let's join with that, and instead hold them to account for what it says. Forget the contradictions, and instead ask: why do you praise a god who would 'dash the heads of babies against the rocks', or put sword through the bellies of women whether pregnant or not? Why praise a god who places such extreme demands upon you, and threatens you with eternal damnation if you fail to live up to his considerable requirements? Why are so many Western christians members of a higher social class, the class for whom Jesus said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for them to enter heaven? Why put your faith in a god who the bible says lies to you, tests your faith, and breaks all of his own rules? More importantly... why should we? Rant over! But don't you think these are better questions to be asking? Does it matter whether bethlehem existed at the time of Jesus' supposed birth? These are just facts, and it's not facts that these people base their religion on, it's faith. ~ Org.

I am going to attempt to answer your questions. Now I do however want to specify I am not trying to thump the perverbial bible here and cram it down anyones throat.
The first two questions I will have to get back to you on, I am unaware what kind of bible that came from but for third question
thats why jesus died, to fulfill those requirements. And the reason for practicing christianity is to show love just like jesus did when he was on the cross. The thing about the camel and the needle, its not the way the americans think of it, but if you go to egypt back in bible days there was an archway to get through,into the fortified cities, to keep enemies out the camels had to shed there baggage and basically crawl through the arch, the arch was called a needle, its symbolism, not literalism, And about the rich part, thats about some rich people treasure there possessions and money over god. and the bible says god doesn't lie god is true in his word, he can not sin, sin is unholy and god is holy. Jesus was without sin thus being perfect and holy which made him the perfect sacrifice.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Underbear has a good point. Just pull out a Koran or something and argue the Bible or the divinity of Jesus by refering to parts of the Koran. They are equally valid pieces of information.

[Jack]

I think it's inaccurate to describe atheist and agnostics as "anti-christian". I'm no more anti-christian than I am anti-mentally challenged.
I don't hate people who cannot deal with reality and have to invent their own to help them cope. I do feel sorry for them and would help them if I could. However, since they can't see their own delusions, they usually refuse it.
Debating them is interesting and can be educational. But to expect positive results from it is pointless.

[Scribbler1]

Why would someone be "anti-religion" in the first place? As long as someone's belief doesn't interfere with your own life there is no reason to want to drive it out of the minds of the believers. I've always thought it a bit cruel to trash someone's faith just to prove you're right.

Of course, it must be kept out of government and education, but if it works for you I say go for it. Just don't try and convince me it is and I won't try and convince you it ain't.

[grandpa]

One way is to point out how God would have created the Devil and sin and all those things he condemns--so how can God be without those things when he planted the bloody seed?

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Why would someone be "anti-religion" in the first place? As long as someone's belief doesn't interfere with your own life there is no reason to want to drive it out of the minds of the believers. I've always thought it a bit cruel to trash someone's faith just to prove you're right.

It's much more cruel to me being told I'll suffer forever for not believing in something I cannot see, touch, hear, smell or taste.

Now, if someone wants to be a Christian or Muslim, that's their choice.
I am sure many do find peace, or a semblance of it through religion (though I personally would not call it "peace").
But I am not about to convince myself religion should be above criticism and skepticism.

If you want reasons to trash religion, pick up a history book or even any "holy book." Of course what I am saying will sound blunt and harsh, but that's the way it is.

Grandpa h.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: grandpa One way is to point out how God would have created the Devil and sin and all those things he condemns--so how can God be without those things when he planted the bloody seed? Grandpa h.

I've asked questions like that of quite a few cleric-types and haven't gotten past the "it's a mystery" stage. God creating an angel and then getting so pissed off at it that he casts it out instead of killing it made no sense to me. Evidently God has no problem raining death on humans but creating a being that will be your nemesis for all time is like someone giving himself cancer just for the hell of it.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: grandpa It's much more cruel to me being told I'll suffer forever for not believing in something I cannot see, touch, hear, smell or taste.

But still, my point was that if others want to believe all that they are welcome to it, provided they don't shove it in MY face.

[Forseti]

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I agree scribbler. People should just calm down and let each other believe in what they want. I live in a very anti Christian area and am sick of people trying to disprove my beliefs.

Grandpa h.[/quote]If you want reasons to trash religion, pick up a history book or even any "holy book." Of course what I am saying will sound blunt and harsh, but that's the way it is.


And Grandpa as far as history goes the same thing can be said about atheist. Look at the Soviet union, Korea and China. And that’s off the top of my head. People will always find a reason to kill each other. And as far as ancient times goes, every one was part of a religion and for people to making sweeping statements about Christians is absurd. You might as well say white people were the problem.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Forseti . I agree scribbler. People should just calm down and let each other believe in what they want. I live in a very anti Christian area and am sick of people trying to disprove my beliefs.

I've been saying that for a long time. I don't like Christians who feel their sole purpose in life is to be missionaries converting those of different faiths and trying to create Christians out of atheists. It's insulting to have people think I NEED them to tell me about their faith as if I am too dumb to make my own choices. Further, I resent the so-called "Christians" in government who put themselves higher than non-Christians. George Bush senior comes to mind when he said he didn't think Atheists could be good Americans. THAT I will fight harder than any opposition around. If you want to hold your faith over me as a symbol of your superiority you (not you personally) will have a bigger fight on your hands than you bargained for.

BUT as far as your personal spiritual beliefs are concerned, I respect and actually support them.

[Forseti]

Scribbler once again I agree with you. And thank you for being respectful of my beliefs. We need atheist to ask the questions that don’t want to be asked and we need to be critical of the Bible. If one is a true Christian he will realize that we are all brothers and all go our own paths. If one really wants or needs to find God he will do it on his own accord and at his own pace.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Forseti Scribbler once again I agree with you. And thank you for being respectful of my beliefs. We need atheist to ask the questions that don’t want to be asked and we need to be critical of the Bible. If one is a true Christian he will realize that we are all brothers and all go our own paths. If one really wants or needs to find God he will do it on his own accord and at his own pace.

I have some neighbors who are DEVOUT Baptists and they are the nicest people you'd want to meet. Also, aside from the occasional pamphlet in my door saying "come visit our church" they don't discuss religion with me. These are the LAST people in the world I would want to even TRY to talk them out of their faith.
This is why I spend so little time in the religion board. Most times I get there by accident because I saw the thread in "new posts" and didn't notice what board it was in. It's a waste of time to argue religion online anyway. Unless you're someone like Starboy, who had a personal mission to talk everyone out of their religion.

I'm not that mean spirited.

[LDS]

But don't you think these are better questions to be asking?

For the most part.

If I were to take this idea one step further, rather than just point out the faults of their religion, you would have to show them a better something (philosophy, other religion, etc.) to replace that which one finds flawed, otherwise the person you are discussing religion with will have no where to jump and will simply justify staying where he is no matter how condemning the evidence is.

As for your questions do you really want them answered or were you just giving examples?

Quote by: grandpa One way is to point out how God would have created the Devil and sin and all those things he condemns--so how can God be without those things when he planted the bloody seed? Grandpa h.

If I understand this question, it is relatively simple to answer so long as we aren't confined to the Bible alone.

[Agur]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Why would someone be "anti-religion" in the first place? As long as someone's belief doesn't interfere with your own life there is no reason to want to drive it out of the minds of the believers. I've always thought it a bit cruel to trash someone's faith just to prove you're right. Of course, it must be kept out of government and education, but if it works for you I say go for it. Just don't try and convince me it is and I won't try and convince you it ain't.

Compassion may drive you to argue against a believer if you think any specific religion ruins that persons life. It would, in my opinion, be a worthy achievement to convince e.g. a Muslim of the untruth of his faith.

I agree that it is cruel to trash someones faith just to prove you are right, except, of course, in forums like this one. PLEASE try to convince me!! It's great entertainment.. :)

.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Agur Compassion may drive you to argue against a believer if you think any specific religion ruins that persons life. It would, in my opinion, be a worthy achievement to convince e.g. a Muslim of the untruth of his faith.

I'm sure I could find a Muslim willing to convince a Christian of the untruth of HIS faith.

I agree that it is cruel to trash someones faith just to prove you are right, except, of course, in forums like this one. PLEASE try to convince me!! It's great entertainment.. :) .

I guess you'll have to get your entertainment elsewhere then.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Scribbler1 I've asked questions like that of quite a few cleric-types and haven't gotten past the "it's a mystery" stage. God creating an angel and then getting so pissed off at it that he casts it out instead of killing it made no sense to me. Evidently God has no problem raining death on humans but creating a being that will be your nemesis for all time is like someone giving himself cancer just for the hell of it.

Yes, and that's why it stays a mystery.

Grandpa h.