All religions are the same!

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Wow, excuse me for getting in on this one late. All the responses have thusfar been pointed and direct. I'll only respond to a couple directly, and give my personal intrerpretation. To: Duane: What does Bush and/or Blair have to do with the subject of religion? They are just people like you and me with all the problems, and judgements that humanity likes to heap on each other.

Bush and Blair, particularly Bush, represent the most powerful Christian religious voice in politics. The war in Iraq has a strong Holy War element to it by the witness of many of the statements by Bush and the other leaders in the the military and government. The British have been involved throughout the last century in the religious conflict of the Middle East.

I am a Pentacostal, and believe in the laying on of hands, and speaking with tongues - any takers?? Putting aside the common misconceptions about the Native American Indians, no matter what tribe, their's was one of the most pure forms of what we call organized religion. Most important, it was ingrained into their daily lives. Which for all accounts and purposes is what all religions basically teach today. It is not a 60 minute exercise, but a daily walk 24/7/365. For Judeo/Christians - God has believe it or not two Wills. A Divine Will and a Permisive Will. His Divine Will is that we follow His Rules, and the teachings of Christ in the New Testament. In-as-much as we were not born robots and have free will, this is His Permisive Will. This is where the rubber hits the road. We as infividuals have the power in our lives to either do that which is right, or F--k Up. It is up to each one of us every day of our lives to either be a part of the problem or part of the solution.

I have no problem with laying on of hands as long as it is not on the TV (According to Billy Graham in the 50s) without a safety ground. Many different religions faiths have similar practices. It shoud not be done at the exclusion of medical treatments.

Speaking in tongues is okay, but I do not agree with the Biblical interpretation behind this practice.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So damn simple, but yet so very profound. However, not impossible.

This profound principle of course exists in all religions, but there are far more profound simple principles that are ignored that make this one more complicated than it appears. If this was so simple and easy there would not be so many religious wars and conflicts, and so many different churches.

[Elijah]

Forgiven.

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by Elijah, Forgiven.

In the journey of life all are forgiven in Buddhism. No shame, no guilt, no problem. We are all human and failings are a part of life. Life is a great river flowing into a great sea and returning to the mountains again to become a river. The waters cannot be divided.

We make the journey hard by our efforts to fix what is not broken.

What is the the compassion of forgiveness?

Forgiveness is the earth. Regardless of what we do it is there to support us, and recieve us in death. The earth does not distinguish between Buddhist, Christian, Hindu or whatever.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by shunyadragon, What is the the compassion of forgiveness? Forgiveness is the earth. Regardless of what we do it is there to support us, and recieve us in death.

Is this you on the right, shunyadragon?

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, Is this you on the right, shunyadragon? .

Yes it is. I was on Herb Mountain in Liaoning Province visiting the Taoist monk
who lives in a cave there. He has lived there since about 1940? The communists made him leave in the cultural revolution, but he went back a few years later. I travel around China visiting mountains, temples and schools of the Arts to learn about about them and share the journey.

Wher did you get the pic?

[PhanthomOps]

Shunyadragon,

Again - What does Bush & Blair have to do with this thread - THERE IS A THREAD IN THIS SECTION NAMED - "CHURCH & GOVERNMENT" this deals directly with whether or not the President should allow his/hers religious faith influence their decisions.

I conclude from your statement, that you are referring to being "Slain in the Spirit". The laying on of hands have two aspects - primarily for healing. However, there are times when a person is asking for prayer concerning a particular distress in their life. During both of these occassions they can be Slain in the Spirit. Sometimes they fall to the ground where they stand, and others they fall back five or six feet. I have personally witnessed this, and at no time has anyone been injured in the least.

Speaking in Tongues is a fact of life in many Christian communities. I respect your disagreement with the Biblical intrepretation, but none the less it does exist.

Do unto others, etc., is extremely simple. Parents constantly chide their children - Why did you do that?, would you like that done to you?. Supervisors in the workplace admonish workers on the same principle, etc. It is the human element of that principle that mucks it up. His pride, ego, I'm better than you, my education is superior to yours therefore I'm more intelligent, etc. Mankind in general find it very difficult to bend their knee.

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Shunyadragon, Again - What does Bush & Blair have to do with this thread - THERE IS A THREAD IN THIS SECTION NAMED - "CHURCH & GOVERNMENT" this deals directly with whether or not the President should allow his/hers religious faith influence their decisions.

Well you reworded your objection and it is more to the point you apparently wanted to make. I responded to the statement as you made it.

I conclude from your statement, that you are referring to being "Slain in the Spirit". The laying on of hands have two aspects - primarily for healing. However, there are times when a person is asking for prayer concerning a particular distress in their life. During both of these occassions they can be Slain in the Spirit. Sometimes they fall to the ground where they stand, and others they fall back five or six feet. I have personally witnessed this, and at no time has anyone been injured in the least. Speaking in Tongues is a fact of life in many Christian communities. I respect your disagreement with the Biblical intrepretation, but none the less it does exist.

Any practice or belief being a matter of fact or existing in any church or religion does not make it true. I have visited Penticostal Churches over the years, as I have the places of worship of all peoples all over the world, and witnessed what you described.

Do unto others, etc., is extremely simple. Parents constantly chide their children - Why did you do that?, would you like that done to you?. Supervisors in the workplace admonish workers on the same principle, etc. It is the human element of that principle that mucks it up. His pride, ego, I'm better than you, my education is superior to yours therefore I'm more intelligent, etc. Mankind in general find it very difficult to bend their knee.

True my point is that I hear this simple phrase far to much as refering to the answer to all problems, but the reality is it carries little meaning because of the problem of relationships and how people view others who are different in belief. In reality, in relationships with people outside one's spiritual sense of community this little catch phrase appears to loaded with clauses and amendments. History is an excellent witness that how people define there spiritual sense of community determines how well this little saying applies in real life.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by shunyadragon,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shunyadragon,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-PatrickHenry, Is this you on the right, shunyadragon? .

Yes it is.
Wher did you get the pic?[/b][/quote]
Googled up Frank A Doonan from your sig.

[PhanthomOps]

Shunyadragon,

Quote:
"Any practice or belief being a matter of fact or existing in any church or religion does not make it true. I have visited Penticostal Churches over the years, as I have the places of worship of all peoples all over the world, and witnessed what you described."

So, believe it or not that's your choice. However, can you disprove it?

Quote:
"True my point is that I hear this simple phrase far to much as refering to the answer to all problems, but the reality is it carries little meaning because of the problem of relationships and how people view others who are different in belief. In reality, in relationships with people outside one's spiritual sense of community this little catch phrase appears to loaded with clauses and amendments. History is an excellent witness that how people define there spiritual sense of community determines how well this little saying applies in real life."

Hey, we absolutely agree :) :) :)
It all boils down to the individual regarless of their religious belief or lack thereof. It is what we do as an individual, and then collectively that determines whether we are being human willing to accept and respect the differences of others and go on from there together.

[Gorgo]

It has been very successfully disproved. If you think you have proof, please present it.

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, So, believe it or not that's your choice. However, can you disprove it?

[PhanthomOps]

Georgo,

Quote:
"It has been very successfully disproved. If you think you have proof, please present it."

It has also been definately proven - but proving this to you would absolutely depend on whether you are open enough to receive it. Which, from all the opinions you and I have been debating about concerning religious matters - you are not.

[Gorgo]

Yes, if I only believed, then I would believe. Of course! Believe you have no weight and jump off a skyscraper! See if your so-called open-mindedness will save you.

[PhanthomOps]

Gorgo,

God never intended nor asked us to be stupid. Your statement is really off the wall. Oh well, I guess if I was that blob, I would bounce instead of going splat.

[Gorgo]

Oh, another closed minded non-Christian.

[PhanthomOps]

Did you have your cigarette and drink yet???? :) :)

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Shunyadragon, Quote: "Any practice or belief being a matter of fact or existing in any church or religion does not make it true. I have visited Penticostal Churches over the years, as I have the places of worship of all peoples all over the world, and witnessed what you described." So, believe it or not that's your choice. However, can you disprove it?

I do not attempt to prove or disprove it. In the subjective, proof has little meaning.

"True my point is that I hear this simple phrase far to much as refering to the answer to all problems, but the reality is it carries little meaning because of the problem of relationships and how people view others who are different in belief. In reality, in relationships with people outside one's spiritual sense of community this little catch phrase appears to loaded with clauses and amendments. History is an excellent witness that how people define there spiritual sense of community determines how well this little saying applies in real life." Hey, we absolutely agree :) :) :) It all boils down to the individual regarless of their religious belief or lack thereof. It is what we do as an individual, and then collectively that determines whether we are being human willing to accept and respect the differences of others and go on from there together.

I am not sure we do agree. My reference was not referring to the 'individual regardless of religious belief'. Individual weakness and fallibility is of course real, but I was referring to the 'spiritual sense of community taught in the church, faith or religion. This is the main issue where the breakdown of how relate to people who believe differently occurs.

[PhanthomOps]

Shunyadragon,

Quote:
"I do not attempt to prove or disprove it. In the subjective, proof has little meaning."

Then why are we discussing this?

Quote:
"I am not sure we do agree. My reference was not referring to the 'individual regardless of religious belief'. Individual weakness and fallibility is of course real, but I was referring to the 'spiritual sense of community taught in the church, faith or religion. This is the main issue where the breakdown of how relate to people who believe differently occurs."

I cannot speak of all congregations, but the ones I have attended for some time have always taught and practiced tollerance, not only in the spiritual but the practical sense as well. However, it still comes down to whether or not the individual does his/her part.

See ya later

[shunyadragon]

Shunyadragon,

Quote:
"I do not attempt to prove or disprove it. In the subjective, proof has little meaning."

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Then why are we discussing this?

Debate is most often deals with the subjective, that is reason we often dissagree. If these things could be proven than there would be less debate.

For example the claims of miraculous healing by your church and others is rarely documented by means that would satisfy the scientific medical community. This does not imply that extraudinary cases of healing do not take place. Extraudinary cases of healing occur in many beliefs and among those that have no specific religious conviction. The objective scientific view would require more medical evidence for these claims than is currently available. I lived in West Virginia where churches commonly believe in this type of healing. I have personally witnessed many cases of failure, including two of my neighbors, where the terminally ill were just that terminally ill and nothing anyone could do both spiritually and medically to cure them and they died.

I am not sure we do agree. My reference was not referring to the 'individual regardless of religious belief'. Individual weakness and fallibility is of course real, but I was referring to the 'spiritual sense of community taught in the church, faith or religion. This is the main issue where the breakdown of how relate to people who believe differently occurs." I cannot speak of all congregations, but the ones I have attended for some time have always taught and practiced tollerance, not only in the spiritual but the practical sense as well. However, it still comes down to whether or not the individual does his/her part. See ya later

I cannot speak for any particular congregation, faith, belief or religion either. My best witness is the big picture, which I present in my arguements. It is true that everyone has free will and can make their own decisions, but that does not address the problem.

[PhanthomOps]

shunyadragon:

Quote:
"Debate is most often deals with the subjective, that is reason we often dissagree. If these things could be proven than there would be less debate."

I do agree, I just wanted to hear you say it. :)

Quote:
"I cannot speak for any particular congregation, faith, belief or religion either. My best witness is the big picture, which I present in my arguements."

And they are excellent and challenging arguments at that

Quote:
"It is true that everyone has free will and can make their own decisions, but that does not address the problem."

True to a point. Leaving the individual's responsibility aside for now, what do you think about this? - If the various churches, denominations, what have you, were to consider what they agree on and have in common as opposed to the differences, the overall atmosphere would have a very positive and productive change.

[Pooeypants]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Georgo, It has also been definately proven - but proving this to you would absolutely depend on whether you are open enough to receive it. Which, from all the opinions you and I have been debating about concerning religious matters - you are not.

Many religions have been proven when going by their own standards, the real test is to prove to someone unbiased, a neutral, an agnostic.

Although you shouldn't really need proof in religion as the whole point of it is faith.