Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

CJFreeman · Mar 27, 2004, 10:44 am

Rap bothers me. So do other forms of popular music.

I understand, and can appreciate that it takes some talent to be able to iterate thoughts at 100 miles per hour, and to be able to make them rhyme nonetheless. There's also the issue of innovation in sound-bytes, synthesizing, and blending ~ all of which take some considerable ability.

What bothers me, however, is the sociological impact it has on youth today. For example, I work in a drug and alcohol rehabilitation clinic. We house 52 young offenders who invariably ascribe their identities to Tu Pac, Snoop Dog, Ja Rule, and a host of other odd monikers. It’s a popular rejoinder to say they are teenagers searching for their identities; but when you spend 40+ hours a week with them, and listen to how they structure their values, their speech, and their worldviews on the latest Eminem song, you can’t help but feel a certain sense of urgency for them. That is, you begin to wonder if they even have a modicum of self-understanding.

It seems to me that the Hip-Hop culture, and other mainstream artists have the ignominious effect of breeding Edgar’s pomp, without the benefit of a decent circumstance. Observe the apotheosis of gang mentality, drugs, illicit and violent sex, and a total lack of regard for anything that doesn’t conform to ghetto life-cum-capitalist/materialist. Is this a clear-cut demonstration of Nietzsche’s nigh prophetic transvaluative ethic? Or consider that popular rap artists are publishing lyrics that promote ideas such as ‘busting vaginal walls’, and ‘forcing fellatio on b*thes ‘till they puke’; and even writing such ditties as “p*ssy my friend, is like meat on a bone: you suck it, you f*ck it, and leave it alone” ~ is it any wonder that many young people today consider terms like “slamming that b*tch,” and “tapping that ass” as terms of endearment?

What kind of moral fallout do you think such stilted depravity will leave behind? What kind of action can be taken to help kids avoid the indoctrination of amor mortis? And let’s not opine the glories of the Fifth Amendment and its urgent begging of the question, “do I have the right to not listen?” Obviously, we do. But in doing so, are we willing to listen to the sounds of our youth’s hearts hardening, and their morals disintegrating?

I suppose the next question to ask is: do popular artists give the culture what they want; or is culture telling the popular artists what to give? Here we have the chicken and the egg scenario. That is, which came first, the desire for depravity, or the creation of its acceptability?

From a sociological standpoint we can all stand at the sidelines and say that this is all just one of those phases that cultures go through. The Romans had it with their vomitoriums and mass orgies. The clandestine motives of the puritans propagated mass sexual deviance. And the Nordic escapades of the medieval years rendered many an innocent settlement a cinerescent graveyard. However, the old addage, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" should snap present generations to attention.

What are our options? Is censorship necessary? Is education enough to stop the grunted corruption popular music is promoting? Or do we have to continue along this cuneiform course, stopping at the apex only to realise that we have a legacy of decadence and debauchery? Is there a way to curb the moral turpitude so popular in mainstream music today? Or do we just resign ourselves to such weak capitulations as, "that's just the way it is," or "your parents thought the same thing of your music"?

Interested,
Christopher J. Freeman

Impenitent · Mar 27, 2004, 11:51 am

Plato asked the same thing...

Mozart1220 · Mar 27, 2004, 12:22 pm

A whop bop a loo bop a wop bam boom....

Didn't Sinatra sing about "makin' whoopie"?

"Rock n' Roll" was the black people's term for sex in the 30's and 40's.

Same sentiment, different terms.

The only thing more dangerous than the music itself is the censorship of it.

I hate rap "music" (term used VERY loosely) but all I can do is teach my children why those terms and ideas are wrong, pay attention to what they listen to and watch on TV and hope for the best.
My Mom LOVED Elvis in the 50's and 60's
I was a Kiss and Black Sabbath fan in the 70's
Neither of us break the aw, and I've NEVER treated women with disrespect.

It's not about the music. It's about how you are taught by your parents. Kids want tand need roll models, and in the absence of real ones they will turn to what's availiable.

Automatic Nate · Mar 27, 2004, 02:52 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
Plato asked the same thing...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I'm not sure it's that simple. The phenomena are similar in form, but the content seems to have changed. I think it would be pertinent to take Freeman's anecdote as part of the question--although I don't have experience as a drug counsellor, I've certainly heard similar things on my visits to young parishoners in juvenille prison. Kids narrate themselves in terms of DMX and Eminem and whose jail sentences bear that out (I wasn't any more involved in youth ministry when 50 Cent entered the scene). I wonder whether we're seeing something different from what Plato was seeing.

Now as a Miltonist I have a deep-seated opposition to censorship, but I do wonder whether we shouldn't take with more seriousness the difference even as we note the common threads. I'm not so sure that the "same sentiment," in any strong sense, is operative here.

Pale RIder · Mar 27, 2004, 02:52 pm

Seems that we can see the "slippery slope" in action since the 1950's.

So was it the music, or has the music simply been a reflection of the socialism that has been steadily creeping into daily life.

Automatic Nate · Mar 27, 2004, 02:54 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pale RIder,)
So was it the music, or has the music simply been a reflection of the socialism that has been steadily creeping into daily life.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I'm not clear on how the subculture of "Bling bling" is an extension of socialism. Could you say more?

Impenitent · Mar 27, 2004, 02:56 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
Plato asked the same thing...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I'm not sure it's that simple. The phenomena are similar in form, but the content seems to have changed.

*****not really, every 20 years or so the youth are being corrupted by something... the content hasn't changed just the medium...

I think it would be pertinent to take Freeman's anecdote as part of the question--although I don't have experience as a drug counsellor, I've certainly heard similar things on my visits to young parishoners in juvenille prison. Kids narrate themselves in terms of DMX and Eminem and whose jail sentences bear that out (I wasn't any more involved in youth ministry when 50 Cent entered the scene). I wonder whether we're seeing something different from what Plato was seeing.

*****only in the fact that the youth are incarcerated now

Now as a Miltonist I have a deep-seated opposition to censorship, but I do wonder whether we shouldn't take with more seriousness the difference even as we note the common threads. I'm not so sure that the "same sentiment," in any strong sense, is operative here.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Automatic Nate · Mar 27, 2004, 03:07 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)

*****not really, every 20 years or so the youth are being corrupted by something... the content hasn't changed just the medium...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
How are you defining "medium" here? I take the medium to be one of the things that has changed little since people began selling recorded music, but I consider commercial recorded music itself to be the medium.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
*****only in the fact that the youth are incarcerated now
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I'm not sure on this. Could you comment a bit on the sampled lines from above and point to analogues in the music of other twenty-year cycles? Perhaps this twenty-year cycle does happen as you say, but I think notable changes have occurred in the ethical content of the music itself.

The idea behind the twenty-year cycle theory (the one to which Plato is so often drafted) seems to be that what was taboo twenty years ago is mainstream today. Does this hold for the slip into misogyny and tribalism that is evident in contemporary music? Should we rest assured that makin' the bitch puke will be perfectly acceptable by 2024?

Impenitent · Mar 27, 2004, 03:18 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,)
how are you defining "medium" here? I take the medium to be one of the things that has changed little since people began selling recorded music, but I consider commercial recorded music itself to be the medium.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

medium is the method of delivery... cd, radio, cassettes, 8-track, live bands

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,)
I'm not sure on this. Could you comment a bit on the sampled lines from above and point to analogues in the music of other twenty-year cycles? Perhaps this twenty-year cycle does happen as you say, but I think notable changes have occurred in the ethical content of the music itself.

The idea behind the twenty-year cycle theory (the one to which Plato is so often drafted) seems to be that what was taboo twenty years ago is mainstream today. Does this hold for the slip into misogyny and tribalism that is evident in contemporary music? Should we rest assured that makin' the bitch puke will be perfectly acceptable by 2024?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

the ethical content has been the same since history began... degrading women, picking fights, warring nations, racism, sexism... just read some homer or sophocles or any greek tragedy really... homosexual sex was taboo 20 years ago... but it is making a comeback... and it was perfectly normal in plato's day and in 40 years it will be back in the closet...

Automatic Nate · Mar 27, 2004, 03:44 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
medium is the method of delivery... cd, radio, cassettes, 8-track, live bands<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Strange... I'd classify most of these (radio and live performance being the possible exceptions) as the same medium, packaged differently. All of them are commercially available, commodified, replayable musical performances. But that's not really what's at issue here.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
the ethical content has been the same since history began... degrading women, picking fights, warring nations, racism, sexism... just read some homer or sophocles or any greek tragedy really... <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
It just so happens that I recently taught Oedipus Rex and Antigone to a class of college freshmen. Could you point to the "degrading women" part for me so that we can have a bit more lengthy conversation on it?

I get the feeling that you're brushing this conversation aside rather than engaging it, but I'll ask anyway that you provide some particular analogues within the Greek tradition (or other traditions) to gangsta rap culture so that I can see what sorts of similarities you have in mind. Remember, I'm a college English teacher--I need specific examples!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
homosexual sex was taboo 20 years ago... but it is making a comeback... and it was perfectly normal in plato's day and in 40 years it will be back in the closet...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I would argue that the context in which sex happens matters; in Plato's day pedophilia was the accepted norm, not necessarily sex between adult men (I'm using primarily Plato's Symposium as my text, though I've read in historical surveys that this bears out in most cases). Every gay man I've talked to on this seems to think that something different is going on in the late twentieth and early twenty-first centuries. What sorts of historical developments do you have in mind driving certain sexual preferences "back in the closet," or are you simply assuming that all things are cyclical and that particular historical developments aren't all that relevant to all this?

Impenitent · Mar 27, 2004, 04:06 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,)

It just so happens that I recently taught Oedipus Rex and Antigone to a class of college freshmen. Could you point to the "degrading women" part for me so that we can have a bit more lengthy conversation on it?
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
sure, Antigone is a bitch who gets dissed by Creon... she tried to set herself up as the one who did the "right thing" by buring her brother... Creon slapped her down so Antigone took the extreme measure of hanging herself...
it isn't that strange...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,)

I get the feeling that you're brushing this conversation aside rather than engaging it, but I'll ask anyway that you provide some particular analogues within the Greek tradition (or other traditions) to gangsta rap culture so that I can see what sorts of similarities you have in mind. Remember, I'm a college English teacher--I need specific examples! <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
and as far as Rex goes, a parallel can be drawn with the giving up of the baby... prophesy aside, this happens all the time in the rap culture... absent daddies are everywhere...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
homosexual sex was taboo 20 years ago... but it is making a comeback... and it was perfectly normal in plato's day and in 40 years it will be back in the closet...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,)

I would argue that the context in which sex happens matters; in Plato's day pedophilia was the accepted norm, not necessarily sex between adult men (I'm using primarily Plato's Symposium as my text, though I've read in historical surveys that this bears out in most cases). Every gay man I've talked to on this seems to think that something different is going on in the late twentieth and early twenty-first centuries. What sorts of historical developments do you have in mind driving certain sexual preferences "back in the closet," or are you simply assuming that all things are cyclical and that particular historical developments aren't all that relevant to all this?<hr size="1" /></blockquote> my point was that it is cyclical and the history bears this out...

Pale RIder · Mar 27, 2004, 04:10 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,)
I'm not clear on how the subculture of "Bling bling" is an extension of socialism. Could you say more?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

It is my thinking that the subculture of "Bling bling" arose from the projects that were in turn a product of the welfare state. Rap music speaks of a subculture in which people, especially women, have no real value.

The welfare state set up a situation in the 1960's that put women in the position of accepting "free" money and steady housing from the government, or to marry a man who may or may not have been able, or willing to support her long term. Many of these women were of high school age and saw having a kid or two as a small price to pay to get their own place away from their family and to have money of thier own.

A culture was born wherein the women had money and housing and children, and adult males hovered on the periphery. Many of them had fathered the kids living with the women, but they had no real positive impact upon the children's lives. They were seen to come in, party with the women, and then leave.

When the children "matured", the girls joined their moms as single mothers, and the boys moved out to the fringe with their male role models. So here we are. The music is that of a subculture with no real core values except to get what you can while you can by any means necessary. This would seem to be the extent of their philosophy. Live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse.

This music seems to be an order of magnatude away from the "youthful rebelion" type music that we have heard from successive generations of young people since the 1940's.

Automatic Nate · Mar 28, 2004, 08:44 am

PR: That's a pretty good sociological/economic analysis, and one that I'm often weak on in the face of actual cases. I admit that I often neglect the theoretical big picture when faced with actual cases. While I still hold that assisting the poor is a valid common good, I do agree on the larger scale that our current system is a rather lousy way of doing so. I also agree that something significant has changed, but that brings me to...

Imp: Very cute. I would ask you to narrate your favorite gangsta rap in Sophoclean terms, but I don't think I'd find your answers any more satisfactory. I'll simply say that your analogies seem to stretch the categories beyond their capacity to bear meaning. Simply renaming a female character "bitch" doesn't take into account the categorical shifts that have taken place with regards to women as entities and as (non)-persons in popular culture. And DMX at least doesn't seem to think he's dodging a prophecy by abandoning a child... if you could point to something like that in 50 Cent, I might have to recant.

On a larger picture, we do have a serious disagreement with regards to history. While recognizable patterns do show up if we look at history on the long view, I hold that particular events, particular actions of particular people, and particulars of other kinds give history its shape--there is no inevitable, general cycle. Humans have agency, and each time is different enough from other times that we ought to give serious thought to any time span's particulars. So the flip "Plato said it too" is a bit too lightweight, on my view, to give a convincing account of the age of the Caesars or the Borgias or the gangsta rappers.

Finally, the idea that abstractions like "sexism" and "violence" have simply existed, as they exist now, through the ages, implies a teleology that I cannot embrace, namely that everything that's happened up to this point can best be named in our easy categories rather than engaging the vocabularies and categories of other ages. Something different was happening when waltzing became the dance of the upper class than is happening as Britney Spears goes from teen queen to sorority girl party music. I know all this drifts from our original topic, but I thought my assumptions on the matter might be helpful as we continue to ponder the particular case at hand.

Pale RIder · Mar 28, 2004, 11:39 am

A.N., I am not quite sure that I follow you. Are you saying that you agree that the music is a reflection of an attempt to help people that has gone terribly wrong? Or are you suggesting that problems within the society are somehow caused, or exacerbated by the music itself?

As I type this, I do find myself wondering about middle class white adolescents who take on the "gangsta" persona. I also note that if they carry this persona into adulthood, they often remove themselves from opportunity as surely as if they were born and raised in the projects.

momo · Mar 28, 2004, 02:44 pm

Rap was an organic, artistic development of urban culture that flourished from the early 80s to the early 90s, originally based in the historically African American boroughs of New York with roots that begin in the late 70s.
At that time, blues and jazz had unfortunatly become the exclusive realm of over-the-hill rockstars (and middle-aged white guys with mustaches) and had grown completely irrelevant to black youth culture. Disco, with overtly gay overtones, never truly gained a foothold either.
However, block parties, based partly on the "sound system" phenomena brought by Jamaican immigrants, spawned party rap — a beat-driven form of call-and-response enthusiastically accepted and advanced by inner-city black culture.
This eventually led to a complex interplay between rhythm, language systems, personal artistic vision, and social commentary juxtaposed awith turntabilism and the sampling of songs from previous generations. It was then that Rap brought an entirely new genre of music to the world—a true music of the people.
While participation in previous forms of music required at least the investment of an instrument, rap required little more than a weathered notebook, an imagination, and a beat .

This took music in many profound directions and that the first rappers created art that can easily stand shoulder to shoulder with any musical achievements of this century.

But as corporate interests saw audiences lose interest in their standard products: Billy Joel, Aerosmith, etc.... they realized money could be made by cynically mining urban black culture.
And what they did, as the 90s unfolded, was finally put the spotlight on a genre that had been demanding to be treated seriously for nearly fifteen years. In this process of commercialization, Rap, previously a rich and varied artform, was homogenized and standardized.

Increasingly anti-women, violent, and materialistic rap took up rock's gauntlet as the public spectacle of "rebel music," and in the process—as the 90s became the 00s—subverted any true threat to the establishment or clarified statement of black identity by transforming the genre into a some saleable image of luxury cars, gold necklaces, and high-priced sports memorabilia.

Market capitalism has played a clever trick on them my friends, turning its own obvious failures, i.e. inner-city privation, discriminatory racism, and social disintegration within the world's wealthiest nation, into a marketing tool that not only moves CDs, concert tickets, and cross-marketed fashion lines, but sells to an entire generation the idea of an American dream that consists of little more than taking whatever steps are necessary to bring oneself to a level where one can conspicuously consume luxury goods.

It ennoys me to see that rap has devolved into little more than a showy parade of vanilla mimicry, brand-name fascism, and laughable overconsumption. Even its patrons are drowning in pathetic attempts to garner respect among an equally stunted peer group and to make themselves appealing to the opposite sex, like a field of stuffed peacocks.

"If you're not rollin' in a hummer, there's sumthin' wrong wit 'cha, dog, AND WOULD YOU BEAR HOLY WITNESS TO ALL THIS CLUNKY BULLSHIT AROUND MY NECK!"

:rolleyes:
Yeah, yeah yeah .Y'all got the real shit. Y'all got basement tapes that'd bump the chrome off any jeep. Welcome to Snoresylvania. Population: your indy hip-hop project.
To all those kids in puffy jackets and crooked hats that walk so slowly when they cross the street I would like to say:
Y'all be some dope consumers.

There's nothing hardcore about rap anymore, despite all claims of the contrary. The fact that everyone's too scared of tearing their expensive shirts to actually get in a fist fight so they end up panicking and shooting each other does not change this.
Rap is now a product. A cynically marketed, instantly available identity.
Like everything.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pale RIder,)
As I type this, I do find myself wondering about middle class white adolescents who take on the "gangsta" persona. I also note that if they carry this persona into adulthood, they often remove themselves from opportunity as surely as if they were born and raised in the projects.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Now turned into an accessible product, rap is now sold to a primarily white suburban audience. Suburbanites, fully realizing the lack of substance and worth found in the stripmalls and Olive Gardens that surround them, gleefully participate in this cooption of inner-city black culture—despite never existing under the crushing inner-city realities and hardships that plague American cities...

Pale RIder · Mar 28, 2004, 02:53 pm

momo, If you are going to cut and paste, you probably should give the author credit. Unless, of course, you are Mark Driver.

http://www.blindwino.com/driverjunk.html

Impenitent · Mar 28, 2004, 03:51 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,)

Imp: Very cute. I would ask you to narrate your favorite gangsta rap in Sophoclean terms, but I don't think I'd find your answers any more satisfactory. I'll simply say that your analogies seem to stretch the categories beyond their capacity to bear meaning. Simply renaming a female character "bitch" doesn't take into account the categorical shifts that have taken place with regards to women as entities and as (non)-persons in popular culture. And DMX at least doesn't seem to think he's dodging a prophecy by abandoning a child... if you could point to something like that in 50 Cent, I might have to recant.

:rolleyes: the categories are the same... the women are abused and subject to the men... the children are abandoned (the reason why doesn't matter, the fact is they were abandoned) you deny it because you don't want to see it, but it is there...

On a larger picture, we do have a serious disagreement with regards to history. While recognizable patterns do show up if we look at history on the long view, I hold that particular events, particular actions of particular people, and particulars of other kinds give history its shape--there is no inevitable, general cycle. Humans have agency, and each time is different enough from other times that we ought to give serious thought to any time span's particulars. So the flip "Plato said it too" is a bit too lightweight, on my view, to give a convincing account of the age of the Caesars or the Borgias or the gangsta rappers.

:rolleyes: nothing flip about it... why do you think history never repeats?

Finally, the idea that abstractions like "sexism" and "violence" have simply existed, as they exist now, through the ages, implies a teleology that I cannot embrace, namely that everything that's happened up to this point can best be named in our easy categories rather than engaging the vocabularies and categories of other ages.

:rolleyes: the fact the you cannot embrase it doesn't mean it didn't exist... it is shown again and again and again throughout history...(why do you think history never repeats?) people are people and they are the same today as they were 2000 years ago, we simply have better tools...

Something different was happening when waltzing became the dance of the upper class than is happening as Britney Spears goes from teen queen to sorority girl party music.

:rolleyes: really? what was different? the effete snobs were gathering to socialize and they moved their bodies to show each other the secret member's "handshake"? how is that different from the teenage cliques gathering to socialize and moving their bodies to show each other the new and improved secret "handshake"? the parallels are striking, you simply have to open your eyes...

I know all this drifts from our original topic, but I thought my assumptions on the matter might be helpful as we continue to ponder the particular case at hand.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Automatic Nate · Mar 29, 2004, 02:50 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pale RIder,)
A.N., I am not quite sure that I follow you. Are you saying that you agree that the music is a reflection of an attempt to help people that has gone terribly wrong? Or are you suggesting that problems within the society are somehow caused, or exacerbated by the music itself?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I think both vectors are in operation. When someone asks me whether art imitates life or life imitates art, I usually say, "Yes." I think that the sociological trends that you noted above are indeed making things happen, but I also believe that, given those conditions, better responses are possible than the "thug" persona as folk hero, and I certainly think that companies are making a load of money from marketing that response. So I think that pop culture pulling from one side and sociological/economic realities pulling from the other share in the corruption of several young men I've known, and I think that changes are in order from both directions.

momo · Mar 29, 2004, 04:15 pm

Im in love with Mark Driver. His words are mine :-)
I was sure to have mentioned him already but aparently i had not.
I also thought the forum differenciated pasted articles from normal posts but aparently it does not.
Im sorry Pale. You are right.
Behold the »Genius of Mark driver y'all!

Stigmata66 · Mar 29, 2004, 09:09 pm

I don't know what can be done...conformity is a disease.

As a 17 year old High School student I experience the "Hip Hop Culture" (if can call it a culture...) every waking school day. Some people speak nearly a different language than others in my school, example "Ye lemme grip ona dem penz so I can take diz shadyass test." That comes from Mr white children of yuppies type kids. It's sickening how girls are treated in my school; it's all about getting "some ass" remember. I have a friend and she goes to party and gets drunk rubs up against guys; point is she didn't used to do this. The pressure from this mass-produced pop culture virtually forces kids to act this way or else be "different" which is now an apparent crime. I try to explain it to her she acts like some doped up nigger (nigger like 50 cent; not some hard working black man) in a club grinding with pop culture clone# 14363. And of coarse I get bitched at for "being" too controling and acting like her father... hahaha; im sorry i just have a few morals (yeah I'm a pro drug aetheist with morals....hard to believe?). I like to treat women with decency and respect but this leaves me with no girl friend...for some reason all of the abusive assholes get the girls. Oh well; freedom or fire. I could talk forever...

Mar 27, 2004, 11:51 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	Plato asked the same thing... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 27, 2004, 12:22 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Mozart1220 Igneous Magma Posts: 687	A whop bop a loo bop a wop bam boom.... Didn't Sinatra sing about "makin' whoopie"? "Rock n' Roll" was the black people's term for sex in the 30's and 40's. Same sentiment, different terms. The only thing more dangerous than the music itself is the censorship of it. I hate rap "music" (term used VERY loosely) but all I can do is teach my children why those terms and ideas are wrong, pay attention to what they listen to and watch on TV and hope for the best. My Mom LOVED Elvis in the 50's and 60's I was a Kiss and Black Sabbath fan in the 70's Neither of us break the aw, and I've NEVER treated women with disrespect. It's not about the music. It's about how you are taught by your parents. Kids want tand need roll models, and in the absence of real ones they will turn to what's availiable. Big Jr is watching you!

Mar 27, 2004, 02:52 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Automatic Nate Molten Ash Location: Bogart, GA, USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) Plato asked the same thing...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm not sure it's that simple. The phenomena are similar in form, but the content seems to have changed. I think it would be pertinent to take Freeman's anecdote as part of the question--although I don't have experience as a drug counsellor, I've certainly heard similar things on my visits to young parishoners in juvenille prison. Kids narrate themselves in terms of DMX and Eminem and whose jail sentences bear that out (I wasn't any more involved in youth ministry when 50 Cent entered the scene). I wonder whether we're seeing something different from what Plato was seeing. Now as a Miltonist I have a deep-seated opposition to censorship, but I do wonder whether we shouldn't take with more seriousness the difference even as we note the common threads. I'm not so sure that the "same sentiment," in any strong sense, is operative here. "For neither Man nor Angel can discern Hypocrisie, The only evil that walks Invisible, except to God" --Paradise Lost

Mar 27, 2004, 02:52 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Pale RIder Hot Lava Posts: 1,022	Seems that we can see the "slippery slope" in action since the 1950's. So was it the music, or has the music simply been a reflection of the socialism that has been steadily creeping into daily life. It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

Mar 27, 2004, 02:54 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Automatic Nate Molten Ash Location: Bogart, GA, USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pale RIder,) So was it the music, or has the music simply been a reflection of the socialism that has been steadily creeping into daily life.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm not clear on how the subculture of "Bling bling" is an extension of socialism. Could you say more? "For neither Man nor Angel can discern Hypocrisie, The only evil that walks Invisible, except to God" --Paradise Lost

Mar 27, 2004, 10:44 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
CJFreeman Igneous Magma Posts: 223	Rap bothers me. So do other forms of popular music. I understand, and can appreciate that it takes some talent to be able to iterate thoughts at 100 miles per hour, and to be able to make them rhyme nonetheless. There's also the issue of innovation in sound-bytes, synthesizing, and blending ~ all of which take some considerable ability. What bothers me, however, is the sociological impact it has on youth today. For example, I work in a drug and alcohol rehabilitation clinic. We house 52 young offenders who invariably ascribe their identities to Tu Pac, Snoop Dog, Ja Rule, and a host of other odd monikers. It’s a popular rejoinder to say they are teenagers searching for their identities; but when you spend 40+ hours a week with them, and listen to how they structure their values, their speech, and their worldviews on the latest Eminem song, you can’t help but feel a certain sense of urgency for them. That is, you begin to wonder if they even have a modicum of self-understanding. It seems to me that the Hip-Hop culture, and other mainstream artists have the ignominious effect of breeding Edgar’s pomp, without the benefit of a decent circumstance. Observe the apotheosis of gang mentality, drugs, illicit and violent sex, and a total lack of regard for anything that doesn’t conform to ghetto life-cum-capitalist/materialist. Is this a clear-cut demonstration of Nietzsche’s nigh prophetic transvaluative ethic? Or consider that popular rap artists are publishing lyrics that promote ideas such as ‘busting vaginal walls’, and ‘forcing fellatio on bthes ‘till they puke’; and even writing such ditties as “pssy my friend, is like meat on a bone: you suck it, you fck it, and leave it alone” ~ is it any wonder that many young people today consider terms like “slamming that btch,” and “tapping that ass” as terms of endearment? What kind of moral fallout do you think such stilted depravity will leave behind? What kind of action can be taken to help kids avoid the indoctrination of amor mortis? And let’s not opine the glories of the Fifth Amendment and its urgent begging of the question, “do I have the right to not listen?” Obviously, we do. But in doing so, are we willing to listen to the sounds of our youth’s hearts hardening, and their morals disintegrating? I suppose the next question to ask is: do popular artists give the culture what they want; or is culture telling the popular artists what to give? Here we have the chicken and the egg scenario. That is, which came first, the desire for depravity, or the creation of its acceptability? From a sociological standpoint we can all stand at the sidelines and say that this is all just one of those phases that cultures go through. The Romans had it with their vomitoriums and mass orgies. The clandestine motives of the puritans propagated mass sexual deviance. And the Nordic escapades of the medieval years rendered many an innocent settlement a cinerescent graveyard. However, the old addage, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" should snap present generations to attention. What are our options? Is censorship necessary? Is education enough to stop the grunted corruption popular music is promoting? Or do we have to continue along this cuneiform course, stopping at the apex only to realise that we have a legacy of decadence and debauchery? Is there a way to curb the moral turpitude so popular in mainstream music today? Or do we just resign ourselves to such weak capitulations as, "that's just the way it is," or "your parents thought the same thing of your music"? Interested, Christopher J. Freeman

Mar 27, 2004, 02:56 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) Plato asked the same thing...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm not sure it's that simple. The phenomena are similar in form, but the content seems to have changed. ***not really, every 20 years or so the youth are being corrupted by something... the content hasn't changed just the medium... I think it would be pertinent to take Freeman's anecdote as part of the question--although I don't have experience as a drug counsellor, I've certainly heard similar things on my visits to young parishoners in juvenille prison. Kids narrate themselves in terms of DMX and Eminem and whose jail sentences bear that out (I wasn't any more involved in youth ministry when 50 Cent entered the scene). I wonder whether we're seeing something different from what Plato was seeing. ***only in the fact that the youth are incarcerated now Now as a Miltonist I have a deep-seated opposition to censorship, but I do wonder whether we shouldn't take with more seriousness the difference even as we note the common threads. I'm not so sure that the "same sentiment," in any strong sense, is operative here.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 27, 2004, 03:07 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Automatic Nate Molten Ash Location: Bogart, GA, USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) ***not really, every 20 years or so the youth are being corrupted by something... the content hasn't changed just the medium...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> How are you defining "medium" here? I take the medium to be one of the things that has changed little since people began selling recorded music, but I consider commercial recorded music itself to be the medium. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) **only in the fact that the youth are incarcerated now <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm not sure on this. Could you comment a bit on the sampled lines from above and point to analogues in the music of other twenty-year cycles? Perhaps this twenty-year cycle does happen as you say, but I think notable changes have occurred in the ethical content of the music itself. The idea behind the twenty-year cycle theory (the one to which Plato is so often drafted) seems to be that what was taboo twenty years ago is mainstream today. Does this hold for the slip into misogyny and tribalism that is evident in contemporary music? Should we rest assured that makin' the bitch puke will be perfectly acceptable by 2024? "For neither Man nor Angel can discern Hypocrisie, The only evil that walks Invisible, except to God" --Paradise Lost*

Mar 27, 2004, 03:18 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,) how are you defining "medium" here? I take the medium to be one of the things that has changed little since people began selling recorded music, but I consider commercial recorded music itself to be the medium.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> medium is the method of delivery... cd, radio, cassettes, 8-track, live bands </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,) I'm not sure on this. Could you comment a bit on the sampled lines from above and point to analogues in the music of other twenty-year cycles? Perhaps this twenty-year cycle does happen as you say, but I think notable changes have occurred in the ethical content of the music itself. The idea behind the twenty-year cycle theory (the one to which Plato is so often drafted) seems to be that what was taboo twenty years ago is mainstream today. Does this hold for the slip into misogyny and tribalism that is evident in contemporary music? Should we rest assured that makin' the bitch puke will be perfectly acceptable by 2024?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> the ethical content has been the same since history began... degrading women, picking fights, warring nations, racism, sexism... just read some homer or sophocles or any greek tragedy really... homosexual sex was taboo 20 years ago... but it is making a comeback... and it was perfectly normal in plato's day and in 40 years it will be back in the closet... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 27, 2004, 03:44 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Automatic Nate Molten Ash Location: Bogart, GA, USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) medium is the method of delivery... cd, radio, cassettes, 8-track, live bands<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Strange... I'd classify most of these (radio and live performance being the possible exceptions) as the same medium, packaged differently. All of them are commercially available, commodified, replayable musical performances. But that's not really what's at issue here. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) the ethical content has been the same since history began... degrading women, picking fights, warring nations, racism, sexism... just read some homer or sophocles or any greek tragedy really... <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> It just so happens that I recently taught Oedipus Rex and Antigone to a class of college freshmen. Could you point to the "degrading women" part for me so that we can have a bit more lengthy conversation on it? I get the feeling that you're brushing this conversation aside rather than engaging it, but I'll ask anyway that you provide some particular analogues within the Greek tradition (or other traditions) to gangsta rap culture so that I can see what sorts of similarities you have in mind. Remember, I'm a college English teacher--I need specific examples! </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) homosexual sex was taboo 20 years ago... but it is making a comeback... and it was perfectly normal in plato's day and in 40 years it will be back in the closet...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I would argue that the context in which sex happens matters; in Plato's day pedophilia was the accepted norm, not necessarily sex between adult men (I'm using primarily Plato's Symposium as my text, though I've read in historical surveys that this bears out in most cases). Every gay man I've talked to on this seems to think that something different is going on in the late twentieth and early twenty-first centuries. What sorts of historical developments do you have in mind driving certain sexual preferences "back in the closet," or are you simply assuming that all things are cyclical and that particular historical developments aren't all that relevant to all this? "For neither Man nor Angel can discern Hypocrisie, The only evil that walks Invisible, except to God" --Paradise Lost

Mar 27, 2004, 04:06 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,) It just so happens that I recently taught Oedipus Rex and Antigone to a class of college freshmen. Could you point to the "degrading women" part for me so that we can have a bit more lengthy conversation on it? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> sure, Antigone is a bitch who gets dissed by Creon... she tried to set herself up as the one who did the "right thing" by buring her brother... Creon slapped her down so Antigone took the extreme measure of hanging herself... it isn't that strange... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,) I get the feeling that you're brushing this conversation aside rather than engaging it, but I'll ask anyway that you provide some particular analogues within the Greek tradition (or other traditions) to gangsta rap culture so that I can see what sorts of similarities you have in mind. Remember, I'm a college English teacher--I need specific examples! <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> and as far as Rex goes, a parallel can be drawn with the giving up of the baby... prophesy aside, this happens all the time in the rap culture... absent daddies are everywhere... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) homosexual sex was taboo 20 years ago... but it is making a comeback... and it was perfectly normal in plato's day and in 40 years it will be back in the closet...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'></span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,) I would argue that the context in which sex happens matters; in Plato's day pedophilia was the accepted norm, not necessarily sex between adult men (I'm using primarily Plato's Symposium as my text, though I've read in historical surveys that this bears out in most cases). Every gay man I've talked to on this seems to think that something different is going on in the late twentieth and early twenty-first centuries. What sorts of historical developments do you have in mind driving certain sexual preferences "back in the closet," or are you simply assuming that all things are cyclical and that particular historical developments aren't all that relevant to all this?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> my point was that it is cyclical and the history bears this out... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 27, 2004, 04:10 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Pale RIder Hot Lava Posts: 1,022	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,) I'm not clear on how the subculture of "Bling bling" is an extension of socialism. Could you say more?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> It is my thinking that the subculture of "Bling bling" arose from the projects that were in turn a product of the welfare state. Rap music speaks of a subculture in which people, especially women, have no real value. The welfare state set up a situation in the 1960's that put women in the position of accepting "free" money and steady housing from the government, or to marry a man who may or may not have been able, or willing to support her long term. Many of these women were of high school age and saw having a kid or two as a small price to pay to get their own place away from their family and to have money of thier own. A culture was born wherein the women had money and housing and children, and adult males hovered on the periphery. Many of them had fathered the kids living with the women, but they had no real positive impact upon the children's lives. They were seen to come in, party with the women, and then leave. When the children "matured", the girls joined their moms as single mothers, and the boys moved out to the fringe with their male role models. So here we are. The music is that of a subculture with no real core values except to get what you can while you can by any means necessary. This would seem to be the extent of their philosophy. Live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse. This music seems to be an order of magnatude away from the "youthful rebelion" type music that we have heard from successive generations of young people since the 1940's. It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

Mar 28, 2004, 08:44 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
Automatic Nate Molten Ash Location: Bogart, GA, USA Posts: 130	PR: That's a pretty good sociological/economic analysis, and one that I'm often weak on in the face of actual cases. I admit that I often neglect the theoretical big picture when faced with actual cases. While I still hold that assisting the poor is a valid common good, I do agree on the larger scale that our current system is a rather lousy way of doing so. I also agree that something significant has changed, but that brings me to... Imp: Very cute. I would ask you to narrate your favorite gangsta rap in Sophoclean terms, but I don't think I'd find your answers any more satisfactory. I'll simply say that your analogies seem to stretch the categories beyond their capacity to bear meaning. Simply renaming a female character "bitch" doesn't take into account the categorical shifts that have taken place with regards to women as entities and as (non)-persons in popular culture. And DMX at least doesn't seem to think he's dodging a prophecy by abandoning a child... if you could point to something like that in 50 Cent, I might have to recant. On a larger picture, we do have a serious disagreement with regards to history. While recognizable patterns do show up if we look at history on the long view, I hold that particular events, particular actions of particular people, and particulars of other kinds give history its shape--there is no inevitable, general cycle. Humans have agency, and each time is different enough from other times that we ought to give serious thought to any time span's particulars. So the flip "Plato said it too" is a bit too lightweight, on my view, to give a convincing account of the age of the Caesars or the Borgias or the gangsta rappers. Finally, the idea that abstractions like "sexism" and "violence" have simply existed, as they exist now, through the ages, implies a teleology that I cannot embrace, namely that everything that's happened up to this point can best be named in our easy categories rather than engaging the vocabularies and categories of other ages. Something different was happening when waltzing became the dance of the upper class than is happening as Britney Spears goes from teen queen to sorority girl party music. I know all this drifts from our original topic, but I thought my assumptions on the matter might be helpful as we continue to ponder the particular case at hand. "For neither Man nor Angel can discern Hypocrisie, The only evil that walks Invisible, except to God" --Paradise Lost

Mar 28, 2004, 11:39 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
Pale RIder Hot Lava Posts: 1,022	A.N., I am not quite sure that I follow you. Are you saying that you agree that the music is a reflection of an attempt to help people that has gone terribly wrong? Or are you suggesting that problems within the society are somehow caused, or exacerbated by the music itself? As I type this, I do find myself wondering about middle class white adolescents who take on the "gangsta" persona. I also note that if they carry this persona into adulthood, they often remove themselves from opportunity as surely as if they were born and raised in the projects. It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

Mar 28, 2004, 02:44 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
momo Sedimentary Rock Location: Montreal, for now Posts: 11	Rap was an organic, artistic development of urban culture that flourished from the early 80s to the early 90s, originally based in the historically African American boroughs of New York with roots that begin in the late 70s. At that time, blues and jazz had unfortunatly become the exclusive realm of over-the-hill rockstars (and middle-aged white guys with mustaches) and had grown completely irrelevant to black youth culture. Disco, with overtly gay overtones, never truly gained a foothold either. However, block parties, based partly on the "sound system" phenomena brought by Jamaican immigrants, spawned party rap — a beat-driven form of call-and-response enthusiastically accepted and advanced by inner-city black culture. This eventually led to a complex interplay between rhythm, language systems, personal artistic vision, and social commentary juxtaposed awith turntabilism and the sampling of songs from previous generations. It was then that Rap brought an entirely new genre of music to the world—a true music of the people. While participation in previous forms of music required at least the investment of an instrument, rap required little more than a weathered notebook, an imagination, and a beat . This took music in many profound directions and that the first rappers created art that can easily stand shoulder to shoulder with any musical achievements of this century. But as corporate interests saw audiences lose interest in their standard products: Billy Joel, Aerosmith, etc.... they realized money could be made by cynically mining urban black culture. And what they did, as the 90s unfolded, was finally put the spotlight on a genre that had been demanding to be treated seriously for nearly fifteen years. In this process of commercialization, Rap, previously a rich and varied artform, was homogenized and standardized. Increasingly anti-women, violent, and materialistic rap took up rock's gauntlet as the public spectacle of "rebel music," and in the process—as the 90s became the 00s—subverted any true threat to the establishment or clarified statement of black identity by transforming the genre into a some saleable image of luxury cars, gold necklaces, and high-priced sports memorabilia. Market capitalism has played a clever trick on them my friends, turning its own obvious failures, i.e. inner-city privation, discriminatory racism, and social disintegration within the world's wealthiest nation, into a marketing tool that not only moves CDs, concert tickets, and cross-marketed fashion lines, but sells to an entire generation the idea of an American dream that consists of little more than taking whatever steps are necessary to bring oneself to a level where one can conspicuously consume luxury goods. It ennoys me to see that rap has devolved into little more than a showy parade of vanilla mimicry, brand-name fascism, and laughable overconsumption. Even its patrons are drowning in pathetic attempts to garner respect among an equally stunted peer group and to make themselves appealing to the opposite sex, like a field of stuffed peacocks. "If you're not rollin' in a hummer, there's sumthin' wrong wit 'cha, dog, AND WOULD YOU BEAR HOLY WITNESS TO ALL THIS CLUNKY BULLSHIT AROUND MY NECK!" :rolleyes: Yeah, yeah yeah .Y'all got the real shit. Y'all got basement tapes that'd bump the chrome off any jeep. Welcome to Snoresylvania. Population: your indy hip-hop project. To all those kids in puffy jackets and crooked hats that walk so slowly when they cross the street I would like to say: Y'all be some dope consumers. There's nothing hardcore about rap anymore, despite all claims of the contrary. The fact that everyone's too scared of tearing their expensive shirts to actually get in a fist fight so they end up panicking and shooting each other does not change this. Rap is now a product. A cynically marketed, instantly available identity. Like everything. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pale RIder,) As I type this, I do find myself wondering about middle class white adolescents who take on the "gangsta" persona. I also note that if they carry this persona into adulthood, they often remove themselves from opportunity as surely as if they were born and raised in the projects.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Now turned into an accessible product, rap is now sold to a primarily white suburban audience. Suburbanites, fully realizing the lack of substance and worth found in the stripmalls and Olive Gardens that surround them, gleefully participate in this cooption of inner-city black culture—despite never existing under the crushing inner-city realities and hardships that plague American cities...

Mar 28, 2004, 02:53 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Pale RIder Hot Lava Posts: 1,022	momo, If you are going to cut and paste, you probably should give the author credit. Unless, of course, you are Mark Driver. http://www.blindwino.com/driverjunk.html It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

Mar 28, 2004, 03:51 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Automatic Nate,) Imp: Very cute. I would ask you to narrate your favorite gangsta rap in Sophoclean terms, but I don't think I'd find your answers any more satisfactory. I'll simply say that your analogies seem to stretch the categories beyond their capacity to bear meaning. Simply renaming a female character "bitch" doesn't take into account the categorical shifts that have taken place with regards to women as entities and as (non)-persons in popular culture. And DMX at least doesn't seem to think he's dodging a prophecy by abandoning a child... if you could point to something like that in 50 Cent, I might have to recant. :rolleyes: the categories are the same... the women are abused and subject to the men... the children are abandoned (the reason why doesn't matter, the fact is they were abandoned) you deny it because you don't want to see it, but it is there... On a larger picture, we do have a serious disagreement with regards to history. While recognizable patterns do show up if we look at history on the long view, I hold that particular events, particular actions of particular people, and particulars of other kinds give history its shape--there is no inevitable, general cycle. Humans have agency, and each time is different enough from other times that we ought to give serious thought to any time span's particulars. So the flip "Plato said it too" is a bit too lightweight, on my view, to give a convincing account of the age of the Caesars or the Borgias or the gangsta rappers. :rolleyes: nothing flip about it... why do you think history never repeats? Finally, the idea that abstractions like "sexism" and "violence" have simply existed, as they exist now, through the ages, implies a teleology that I cannot embrace, namely that everything that's happened up to this point can best be named in our easy categories rather than engaging the vocabularies and categories of other ages. :rolleyes: the fact the you cannot embrase it doesn't mean it didn't exist... it is shown again and again and again throughout history...(why do you think history never repeats?) people are people and they are the same today as they were 2000 years ago, we simply have better tools... Something different was happening when waltzing became the dance of the upper class than is happening as Britney Spears goes from teen queen to sorority girl party music. :rolleyes: really? what was different? the effete snobs were gathering to socialize and they moved their bodies to show each other the secret member's "handshake"? how is that different from the teenage cliques gathering to socialize and moving their bodies to show each other the new and improved secret "handshake"? the parallels are striking, you simply have to open your eyes... I know all this drifts from our original topic, but I thought my assumptions on the matter might be helpful as we continue to ponder the particular case at hand.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 29, 2004, 02:50 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Automatic Nate Molten Ash Location: Bogart, GA, USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pale RIder,) A.N., I am not quite sure that I follow you. Are you saying that you agree that the music is a reflection of an attempt to help people that has gone terribly wrong? Or are you suggesting that problems within the society are somehow caused, or exacerbated by the music itself?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I think both vectors are in operation. When someone asks me whether art imitates life or life imitates art, I usually say, "Yes." I think that the sociological trends that you noted above are indeed making things happen, but I also believe that, given those conditions, better responses are possible than the "thug" persona as folk hero, and I certainly think that companies are making a load of money from marketing that response. So I think that pop culture pulling from one side and sociological/economic realities pulling from the other share in the corruption of several young men I've known, and I think that changes are in order from both directions. "For neither Man nor Angel can discern Hypocrisie, The only evil that walks Invisible, except to God" --Paradise Lost

Mar 29, 2004, 04:15 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
momo Sedimentary Rock Location: Montreal, for now Posts: 11	Im in love with Mark Driver. His words are mine :-) I was sure to have mentioned him already but aparently i had not. I also thought the forum differenciated pasted articles from normal posts but aparently it does not. Im sorry Pale. You are right. Behold the »Genius of Mark driver y'all!

Mar 29, 2004, 09:09 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Stigmata66 Molten Ash Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 74	I don't know what can be done...conformity is a disease. As a 17 year old High School student I experience the "Hip Hop Culture" (if can call it a culture...) every waking school day. Some people speak nearly a different language than others in my school, example "Ye lemme grip ona dem penz so I can take diz shadyass test." That comes from Mr white children of yuppies type kids. It's sickening how girls are treated in my school; it's all about getting "some ass" remember. I have a friend and she goes to party and gets drunk rubs up against guys; point is she didn't used to do this. The pressure from this mass-produced pop culture virtually forces kids to act this way or else be "different" which is now an apparent crime. I try to explain it to her she acts like some doped up nigger (nigger like 50 cent; not some hard working black man) in a club grinding with pop culture clone# 14363. And of coarse I get bitched at for "being" too controling and acting like her father... hahaha; im sorry i just have a few morals (yeah I'm a pro drug aetheist with morals....hard to believe?). I like to treat women with decency and respect but this leaves me with no girl friend...for some reason all of the abusive assholes get the girls. Oh well; freedom or fire. I could talk forever... Hate heals, you should try it some time! Fukin Arch Enemy!