Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Xenophile · Apr 22, 2004, 03:16 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Stigmata66,
I like to treat women with decency and respect but this leaves me with no girl friend...for some reason all of the abusive assholes get the girls.

This was the same when I was 17. I am now 38. I think I should have an official "Nice Guy" trophy, for taking last place. Sure, I have a GF now, in fact I am now engaged. I am 38.

If you like, I can give you Xenophile's Official Made-Up-As-He-Went-Along Biological Determinist Theory on Why Abusive Assholes Get The Girls. Not sure that it is the real answer, but it is good as anything that I have heard.

And did Plato have anything to say about that?

floridian · Apr 22, 2004, 01:25 pm

The media reflects culture, and the media also can shape culture. Misogyny, drug use, gang violence, and other destructive behaviors are glamourized by some musicians, and the effect cannot be good.

I would make a distinction between the genre of music and the content. Some rap music is anti-violence and encourages tolerance, education, etc. Unfortunately, that isn't always the most popular rap music.

Gorgo · Apr 22, 2004, 01:36 pm

Popular music is generally a lot of harmless noise. Something to fill up space and dance to and feel rebellious about sometimes.

Like anything else, some rap is better than others. I'd rather hear some of that than, "I Can't Live, If Living Is Without You."

SVMc · Apr 22, 2004, 03:16 pm

I've worked in a maximum security youth facility as a counsellor. The particular difference in my case is that it is girls only. I've been trying to think if there is a historical lineage that we cannot break, and I'm unsure.

First, I think censorship will not solve anything. There's no quicker way to get teens to listen to music or read a book than to censor it, the next best way to attrack teens is to but warning lables on things.

I think it's part of rebellion, breaking out on your own. But that's hardly an analysis.

I guess the feature that I'm most disturbed by is the portrayal of women. I read a work by Cynthia Enloe or Jill Steans (I'll have to look it up) lately who remarked that the rate of rape was higher in countries where women had acheived more freedoms (this particular study did not include sites of conflict, those are the highest instances). And as I think of it there has been IMO an increase in violent lyrics towards women, through at least the 70's and 80's with metal music and now with Hip-hop.

This is of course not to paint all artists of those genre's with the same brush. There are many rap artist who spread a very positive message... they tend not to make the top of the charts though War Party here in Canada has done well (a First Nations group educationg about life on reservations and trying to get positive change).

As for girls + asshole hip-hop culture. I know it seems incredibly frustrating for most teenage guys who are not the "assholes" not to get the girl. But it's an old story. My best advice is that it usually has nothing to do with the guy. Teenage girls rebel too. Some teenage girls pick the bad guy to rebel against parents, other teenage girls feel the only thing they can control are their bodies so they either sink into eating disorders or sleep with the bad guys because they think they are in control. Many girls make it passed this but some don't. It's also important to remember that many many teenage girls suffer from really low self-esteem. It's not typically the shy quite ones that have the low self-esteem when compared with the ones who are getting drunk and sleeping around. That's a classic sign of a girl who dosen't know how to find value in herself so she looks for attention and validation outside of herself. She thinks she finds it in these guys, but is usually unable to distinguish between positive and negative attention, especially if that is all she has received.

dalin · Apr 22, 2004, 03:25 pm

The image of hip-hop portrayed in pop culture is not necessarily the only semblance it can have. Take for example Mos Def. His music is socially conscious with a positive message.

If you want good hip-hop, listen to one of his records entitled 'Black on Both Sides'. With it he makes meaningful statements about the state of society, particularly, in lower income, black communities. But he doesn't just "tell it like it is"; he calls for reform. One of the tracks, 'Mathematics', among other things comments on the state of education today, and the discouragingly low priority today's youth hold it in. As he so aptly puts it in one of the lines: "Young bloods can't spell, but they can rock you at playstation". Or 'Mr. Nigga', an anecdotal song in which he expresses the frustrating racism he faces, even with all the musical and financial success he has seen. I like what he says at one point: "they think that illegal's a synonym for negro".

The point is, there's an entire underground hip-hop scene of artists out there who just like Mos Def decry the cliche glorification of money, women and violence.

If you take a look at other popular music out there, you'll find a common trend that transcends genre boundaries. Britney Spears appearing half naked singing "I'm a slave for you" doesn't do much more for the image of women than a rapper calling women "bitches".

moondusk · Apr 22, 2004, 04:12 pm

This bad influence from the media is growing rapidly and it's a social problem in all over the world.

This growing culture puts a big responsibility on adults to educate the young though it can be very very hard too. It can be reasoned out if kids see better models and heroes they might not get in to the bad media track. But I can also see the hip-hop culture playing adult figures is attractive to a young mind. On the other hand there are some parents who do not take that much time with the kids and these kids would be going behind the media very easily.

Education & bond between parents and kids is the key to not letting kids to get in to the bad influence, on the other hand every adult has the responsibility to make a better world for the future generation.

Stigmata66 · Apr 25, 2004, 06:13 pm

Quote:

If you like, I can give you Xenophile's Official Made-Up-As-He-Went-Along Biological Determinist Theory on Why Abusive Assholes Get The Girls. Not sure that it is the real answer, but it is good as anything that I have heard.

Please elaborate on this "Xenophile's Official Made-Up-As-He-Went-Along Biological Determinist Theory on Why Abusive Assholes Get The Girls."

RightThinker · Apr 25, 2004, 08:26 pm

If someone constantly listens to the glorification of terrible things they at least become somewhat desensitized if not blind to right and wrong.

That is not to say that someone is not responsible if they do what the music says. It is not good for the youth to be exposed to that but the bad rap music that people complain about are usually people telling stories about what happened to them.

The music is a product of the society and not the other way around.

Xenophile · May 1, 2004, 03:16 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Stigmata66,

Please elaborate on this "Xenophile's Official Made-Up-As-He-Went-Along Biological Determinist Theory on Why Abusive Assholes Get The Girls."

OK, you asked for it.

The abusive assholes (AA's), among other things, impregnate more girls. Thus, they leave more offspring. Now, why does this matter to the girl? After all, she doesn't have any more babies with the AA's than with the decent fellows (DF's). Ah, but what about the children she does have? The boys may well inherit some of the father's inclinations, and if the father is an AA, then that means that she has, not more children, but more grandchildren than if she had gone for the DF's. The DF will help her take care of her kids, but the boys will grow up to be DF's who give her a few grandchildren. The AA will give her sons who impregnate everything in site, and thus her genes are scattered far and wide.

Now, of course she doesn't sit around consciously thinking, "I really want this AA to father my children, because I want my sons to be AA's themselves and give me lots of grandchildren." But the fact remains that the woman who prefers the AA will leave more progeny (not in the next generation but the one after that), whether she thinks of it that way or not.

Please note that her daughters will inherit her preferences, as surely as her sons inherit their father's proclivities.

Apr 22, 2004, 03:16 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	I've worked in a maximum security youth facility as a counsellor. The particular difference in my case is that it is girls only. I've been trying to think if there is a historical lineage that we cannot break, and I'm unsure. First, I think censorship will not solve anything. There's no quicker way to get teens to listen to music or read a book than to censor it, the next best way to attrack teens is to but warning lables on things. I think it's part of rebellion, breaking out on your own. But that's hardly an analysis. I guess the feature that I'm most disturbed by is the portrayal of women. I read a work by Cynthia Enloe or Jill Steans (I'll have to look it up) lately who remarked that the rate of rape was higher in countries where women had acheived more freedoms (this particular study did not include sites of conflict, those are the highest instances). And as I think of it there has been IMO an increase in violent lyrics towards women, through at least the 70's and 80's with metal music and now with Hip-hop. This is of course not to paint all artists of those genre's with the same brush. There are many rap artist who spread a very positive message... they tend not to make the top of the charts though War Party here in Canada has done well (a First Nations group educationg about life on reservations and trying to get positive change). As for girls + asshole hip-hop culture. I know it seems incredibly frustrating for most teenage guys who are not the "assholes" not to get the girl. But it's an old story. My best advice is that it usually has nothing to do with the guy. Teenage girls rebel too. Some teenage girls pick the bad guy to rebel against parents, other teenage girls feel the only thing they can control are their bodies so they either sink into eating disorders or sleep with the bad guys because they think they are in control. Many girls make it passed this but some don't. It's also important to remember that many many teenage girls suffer from really low self-esteem. It's not typically the shy quite ones that have the low self-esteem when compared with the ones who are getting drunk and sleeping around. That's a classic sign of a girl who dosen't know how to find value in herself so she looks for attention and validation outside of herself. She thinks she finds it in these guys, but is usually unable to distinguish between positive and negative attention, especially if that is all she has received. Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Apr 22, 2004, 04:12 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
moondusk Molten Ash Posts: 40	This bad influence from the media is growing rapidly and it's a social problem in all over the world. This growing culture puts a big responsibility on adults to educate the young though it can be very very hard too. It can be reasoned out if kids see better models and heroes they might not get in to the bad media track. But I can also see the hip-hop culture playing adult figures is attractive to a young mind. On the other hand there are some parents who do not take that much time with the kids and these kids would be going behind the media very easily. Education & bond between parents and kids is the key to not letting kids to get in to the bad influence, on the other hand every adult has the responsibility to make a better world for the future generation. www.moondusk.com

Apr 25, 2004, 08:26 pm	#28 (permalink) (top)
RightThinker Molten Ash Location: St. Thomas U. S. V. I. Posts: 146	If someone constantly listens to the glorification of terrible things they at least become somewhat desensitized if not blind to right and wrong. That is not to say that someone is not responsible if they do what the music says. It is not good for the youth to be exposed to that but the bad rap music that people complain about are usually people telling stories about what happened to them. The music is a product of the society and not the other way around. "This country was founded and built by people with great dreams and the courage to take great risks." -Ronald Reagan- January 26, 1983

Apr 22, 2004, 01:25 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
floridian Molten Ash Posts: 84	The media reflects culture, and the media also can shape culture. Misogyny, drug use, gang violence, and other destructive behaviors are glamourized by some musicians, and the effect cannot be good. I would make a distinction between the genre of music and the content. Some rap music is anti-violence and encourages tolerance, education, etc. Unfortunately, that isn't always the most popular rap music.

Apr 22, 2004, 01:36 pm	#23 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Popular music is generally a lot of harmless noise. Something to fill up space and dance to and feel rebellious about sometimes. Like anything else, some rap is better than others. I'd rather hear some of that than, "I Can't Live, If Living Is Without You."

Apr 22, 2004, 03:25 pm	#25 (permalink) (top)
dalin Molten Ash Posts: 118	The image of hip-hop portrayed in pop culture is not necessarily the only semblance it can have. Take for example Mos Def. His music is socially conscious with a positive message. If you want good hip-hop, listen to one of his records entitled 'Black on Both Sides'. With it he makes meaningful statements about the state of society, particularly, in lower income, black communities. But he doesn't just "tell it like it is"; he calls for reform. One of the tracks, 'Mathematics', among other things comments on the state of education today, and the discouragingly low priority today's youth hold it in. As he so aptly puts it in one of the lines: "Young bloods can't spell, but they can rock you at playstation". Or 'Mr. Nigga', an anecdotal song in which he expresses the frustrating racism he faces, even with all the musical and financial success he has seen. I like what he says at one point: "they think that illegal's a synonym for negro". The point is, there's an entire underground hip-hop scene of artists out there who just like Mos Def decry the cliche glorification of money, women and violence. If you take a look at other popular music out there, you'll find a common trend that transcends genre boundaries. Britney Spears appearing half naked singing "I'm a slave for you" doesn't do much more for the image of women than a rapper calling women "bitches".