America: A Religon?

[peacedog315]

I just finished reading Machiavelli The Prince and in chapter 18 it says for the prince " thus it is well to seem merciful, faithful, humane, sincere, religious, and also to be so; but you must have the mind so disposed that when it is needful to be otherwise you may be able to change to the opposite qualities."
Moreover, I believe the perception created by the prince as being religious is done for effect. Also the prince can seem guided by Weight and if he fails he also has a perfect escape that is repentance to the Lord, and the religion makes the poison go down so much easier.

[rmnunez]

The US is more religious than the impression they cause to the outside. Much 'noise' is made of the separation of church and state but it seems like there is a more active and devout population than is seen in Europe or even Latin America. Americans are conscientious about their faith, they join community groups, donate to charities and even send their kids to "Sunday School". But the Americans are not all of the same faith, they have dozens (if not hundreds) of Christian sects. Most are fundamentally protestants with small variations, there is also a large number of Catholics and a sprinkling of every other religion.

With this variety, making patriotism into some sort of religion would be very difficult because, while a fair number of Christians might find love of god and country compatible, there are quite a number of religions including the Christian sects which do not. Quakers and Mormons are famous for the dissociation of the temporal and spiritual, I'd imagine Jews in America would have none of this either. As a Catholic myself, I don't see much incompatibility, but finding some basis to associate religion with the state is also lacking. In Europe (where Catholics have associated religion with the state) we can find some martyrs and saints, a few apparitions all of which might support a national dimension to the faith.

Questioning whether there is some movement towards imbuing an almost religious dimension to patriotism, suggests there has been some recent change. It is known that Americans are particularly patriotic, but what is different now? Is it the sense of fear from the outside (ethnophobia)? Is it the military involvement (with their enhanced patriotism)? Is it something perceived of in the Bush Administration (him being born-again perhaps)? I wonder what it is that makes some sense an effort to enhance patriotism to a religious force there?

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

I find it interesting that I should not only have to decide the governments theoretical stance, but I must also outline a plan to implement it, but I will give it a go.

#1 The government should have no say in what days are holidays or other things implied by religion, it is impossible to have a hand in that and not bias religious beliefs. Therefore they should pass no laws on subjects that are decided by philosophy rather than reason, seem to remember on of our amendments in the Bill of Rights saying just that, "Congress shall pass no law...". Too bad we are ignoring that amendment...

#2 If a law is not needed at the Federal level, it should not be a Federal law.

EDIT: I really must get used to this keyboard, I am still dropping letters...

[Down]

America itself is in no way a religion. The current administration is quite religious, yes. But the administration isnt the country. A large amount of the population is either non practicing or entirely non-religious. I think that one of the big problems in our culture is that we tend to disregard other cultures to a certain extent. We somehow have this idea that out culture is the best, and that if we only show other people how good it is, they will be greatful that we helped them change.

[Poetic Oddity]

America is, in a sense a religion. Granted, there are a lot of "American" religions, specificaly some of the newer denominations of christianity. However, there are other ways in which the political system behind America is similar to that of religions.

It's really no coincidence that most "Jesus-Freaks" are also psychoticaly patriotic. While part of this is that they may feel that their religious beliefs are protected by the american system, it's primarily a sideeffect of stupidity. Also, for some reason, although I'm sure it's part of that "second amendment" thing, I suppose Jesus was also a shotgun weilding, anti-social, redneck white boy or something.

America has created a completely psychotic furvor that's only rivaled by that of christianity in this country. In all honnesty, both should be destroyed in entirety, perhaps with the use of nuclear weapons or something.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Well, it seems all the reasoning that was evident earlier in this post has all been used up. I suggest we cap this well and drill anouther hole...

[vic]

Off topic but anyway ...

I said "in my experience", I do not recall you being there, so how do you justify saying that I am incorrect. I happen to be the authority on my opinion, which is what I stated.

You seem to read a little too literally ...

You stated that in your experience it is not a breach of copyright if you post a link. Sounds more like an opinion and not an experience. And whatever way you look at it, it's wrong.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

In my experience website articals are fair game, as long as you include a link and give the real author credit (or leave their name on it). But, generally posting the entire artical is frowned on. Proper form is to post the tease that supports your point, and let the other posters follow the link if they want to read the whole thing. Proper form meaning, in this instance, allowing the host site maximum benefit by encouraging those that read the tease to visit their site.

Is exactly what I posted, it is both an opinion and my experience. How would you know if I stated my experience correctly? Are you telepathic??

You seem to read what you want to see...

[Fenix]

America. I wouldn't call it Religion. But being American is like.... having a special membership. Many countries have cultures to embrace, ancestors; Americans can't really grasp ONE culture, because their is no definition to being American. Being American is like having a status, for instance I was born in New York City, which makes me a United States Citizen but my family originates from Vietnam. So I'm really Vietnamese but I hold the status of being an American Citizen. America's like a harbor for people who call themselves Americans where in actuality they're anything but American. It's hard to describe what I'm trying to say, but I really do hope you can somewhat understand what's going on. But don't get me wrong, its nice being American. Think about it you can travel anywhere with a U.S Passport, the freedoms and liberties of travel are awesome. So in terms of Religion the only thing that I can relate America to is a Club or Organization. I see America more of as a Organization then a Country or Nation. Guess what I'm kinda saying is, America's like a huge corporation, we're just employees who oget special benefits.

[Dislogic]

Well yes the freedoms that America has are awsome. However as far as the citizens, i unfortunately had to realize that for the most part they are ignorant mindless drones that follow basicly whatever anyone tells them. There is only a minority percentage of "free thinking" intellectual type people so to speak and therefore George Bush is the President sorry had to add a little bush bashing.

[Fenix]

I'm in favor of the Bush-Bashing.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Dislogic
Sorry, but that is a humanity thing, it is not limited to America. In actuallity it is much worse in many parts of the world. Unless you think that those people that strap bombs to their body in hopes of killing a bunch of people from another religion are free thinkers???

BTW: Do you think that we would be in better shape had we elected the co-dependent that was running against Bush? I would have preffered a real candidate running for office, but Bush was better than the competition...

[Fenix]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@Aug 30 2003, 03:56 PM Dislogic Sorry, but that is a humanity thing, it is not limited to America. In actuallity it is much worse in many parts of the world. Unless you think that those people that strap bombs to their body in hopes of killing a bunch of people from another religion are free thinkers??? BTW: Do you think that we would be in better shape had we elected the co-dependent that was running against Bush? I would have preffered a real candidate running for office, but Bush was better than the competition...

Ouch.

I'm pretty sure that had Gore won, there'd be Gore-Bashing and boasting for Bush.

[Dislogic]

yes i guess i have to admit that bush was a better choice then Gore however he just aggrivates incredibly, as did his father. But i see your point and i do realize that it is much worse in rest of the world... I just dont understand how people are so ignorant... I mean especially in the US we have an education systems that allows for many other less fortunate citizens to get the same education as wealthy family does because of public schools. I know it would obviously be hard for someone like that to pay a college tuition but thats what community college is for.

The problem to is that to many people dont care and to many people listen to whatever their parents say when usually their parents are as dumb as rocks... and rocks are very dumb lol

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Dislogic
IMO: The main problem that is wrong with American politics is that the common man expects everything to be fixed overnight, or thinks that nothing can be fixed. As a result the political left always claim they can fix everthing in a single term, and the right only focuses on damage control rather than trying to fix anything. I suspect that other countries have the same problem, but admit that I do not know enough about them comment.

As far as people, what do you expect. They are taught by their physical senses that pleasure is the only thing worth seeking. The ones that rise above that are taught that pleasure is to be deneigned as sinful. Few are both intelligent enough to notice the contradiction and strong enough to reject popular opinion.

[G. Adams]

It could be argued that the 'USA' is like a religion, like any nationalisitc beliefs. People are encouraged to believe in an intangible concept, God, the nation etc Certain ideas and principles are attatched by which ever predominant group is pushing such ideas, and they are doing it for their own benefit. So when, for example, Osama bin Ladin is pissed at the West, he invokes God to stir people to fight. When Bush (more likely his team, he's clearly not intelligent enough to do it alone) wants to invade Iraq, Iran or North Korea (all euro using countries, coincidentally) he invokes 'America'.

Nationalism is just a replacement for religion. Pre-1800's everyone but radical philosophers were Christian (i'm generalising for the west here, don't get picky). When countries wanted to invade each other, they'd charge the country by whining about the Catholic/Protestant/Muslim/Heathen menace across the waters. But by 1800 liberal thinking towards religion and the state, as well as atheism amongst the intelligentsia, meant that a new 'religion' was needed. This began in a big way with GB fighting Napolean. So now instead of fighting in the name of God, it's 'Britain', 'America' or 'Germany'. You don't believe in God? Death to the disbeliever! You don't want to go to war? Unpatriotic traitor! Both equally bullshit ways to charge the people or scare the people into doing as the ruling class want.

[Gwala]

I'm suprised no-one has yet made the connection between totalitarian dictatorships and religion yet. Most of the fanatical dictators tend to use God as a way of proving that they are right, and to go against them would be horrid.
(I'm called to a bit in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar "If anyone is here so base...")

While its not a religion, that doesnt stop a lot of the prevailing ideologies from being holy in nature. Its kinda an 'Ode to Consumerism', more than anything.

-Gwala

[Geoff332]

Most of the fanatical dictators tend to use God as a way of proving that they are right

Yeah, like Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, and Stalin. For a bunch of atheists, they sure did kill a lot of people.

[uitmokum]

GEORGE BUSH DECLARES LOYALTY DAY APRIL 30TH, 2003
Bush declares May 1st "Loyalty Day"
May Day is the day celebrated by both Communists and
Satanists, Beltane, also the day of the creation of
Weishaupt's Illuminati in 1176. NOW, THEREFORE, I,
GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of
America, do hereby proclaim May 1, 2003, as Loyalty
Day. I call upon all the people of the United States
to join in support of this national observance. Our
founding principles have endured, guiding our Nation
toward progress and prosperity and allowing the United
States to be a leader among nations of the world.
Throughout our history, honorable men and women have
demonstrated their loyalty to America by making
remarkable sacrifices to preserve and protect these
values.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/rele...0030430-26.html


RUDOLF HESS DECLARES LOYALTY DAY FEBRUARY 25TH, 1934
The Oath to Adolf Hitler
Speech by Rudolf Hess on 25 February 1934
On 25 February 1934, about a million Nazi party
officials gathered at points around Germany to swear
an oath to Adolf Hitler. This is an excerpt from the
speech Rudolf Hess gave on the occasion, which was
broadcast to the nation. Loyalty not only in deed, but
in character is demanded of you. Loyalty of character
often demands no less heroic virtue than does loyalty
in deed. Loyalty in character is unbreakable loyalty,
a loyalty that knows no ifs or buts, that knows no
weakening, Loyalty in character means absolute
obedience that does not question the results of the
order nor its reasons, rather obeys for the sake of
obedience itself.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/hess1.htm


COMPARE THIS TO THE CURRENT REGIME!
Nazi and East German Propaganda
Propaganda was central to Nazi Germany and the German
Democratic Republic. The German Propaganda Archive
includes both propaganda itself and material produced
for the guidance of propagandists. The goal is to help
people understand the two great totalitarian systems
of the 20th Century by giving them access to the
primary material.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/index.htm

call it "religion", there's a word that fits it better I guess. "fascism". All that matters for the leaders of the U.S. is that they can manipulate the general public and they use every tool available...religion, the media, fear,...all tools to achieve their goals. There's nothing religious about that in my opinion.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by uitmokum@Sep 3 2003, 11:59 AM May Day is the day celebrated by both Communists and Satanists, Beltane, also the day of the creation of Weishaupt's Illuminati in 1176.

It should be Pagans celebrate Beltaine, not satanists. Otherwise less informed people will assume that all celebrating beltaine, as I do (cultural reasons rather than strictly religious), as satanists. Especially as Beltaine is dated to pre-celtic times, it seems unfair to brand it as satanist, which only became properly established in the last century.

And saying communists is too general as well. Workers around the (western) world wanted a celebration of the worker and use it to declare support for the 8 hour working day. Communists celebrate it for the same reason every worker celebrates Mayday, for those above reasons.

Mind you, the Weishaupt connection could be suggesting something else. Bush's loyalty to the Illuminati? hmm...