So it begins...

[SoccerfreakAB2]

The end of Christianity in America is beginning. The individuals are starting not to care about what everyone else believes and are taking to what their brains point them to. The Wiccan religion has increased from 8,000 members in 1990 to 134,000 members in 2001. Wicca!

Most interesting stats:

--"14.1% do not follow any organized religion. This is an unusually rapid increase -- almost a doubling -- from only 8% in 1990. There are more Americans who say they are not affiliated with any organized religion than there are Episcopalians, Methodists, and Lutherans taken together."

--"76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990. Identification with Christianity has suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years -- about 0.9 percentage points per year. This decline is identical to that observed in Canada between 1981 and 2001. If this trend continues, then by about the year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S."

http://www.e-thepeople.org/article/39884/

from research of this organization:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm


interesting religion statistics around the world:
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Maybe this is an effect of why Japan, the most atheistic G-7 country, has the lowest murder rate among the seven, and why the United States, the most Christian country, has the highest murder rate (and divorce rate).

Opinions?

[Jack]

Maybe this is an effect of why Japan, the most atheistic G-7 country, has the lowest murder rate among the seven, and why the United States, the most Christian country, has the highest murder rate (and divorce rate).

As much as I'd like to think that was a primary cause, I suspect religious differences account for a smaller part of the reason than, for instance, cultural differences. Respect for the elderly and children is a strong cultural attitude in Japan, and it usually extends to all others as well. In many ways they enjoy a less violent and more "true to their traditions" society than we.

But ever since the yakuza, taking their cues from Western gangs, has hit the scene, Japan may be headed toward a more America-like society in the future.

[phoenix_fire]

Thanks, Isher. I would have made that point, but it's more credible coming from one whom I assume is less opinionated toward favoring faith than I am.

As for you, freak, dream on. Ever since Darwin and even before, detractors have hailed the final and glorious demise of Christianity, and as far as I can tell, they are still holding their breaths. The Vandals and Visigoths thought Christianity would fall with the Roman Empire. The Bolsheviks thought they could replace Christianity with Communism. Christianity yet thrives long after the Bolsheviks have fallen. Man-made ideologies and sciences have come and gone but Christianity remains. Further, I find it intersting that you back up the demise of one set of faith-based beliefs with the rise of another, right after you indicate a more cerebral approach. That's some fuzzy logic. Maybe we are not being led by our brains so much as we would like to think, eh?

If you really want to know, I once heard a figure that said Jedi is the fastest growing religion in Great Britain...for what it's worth.

[Son of Belial]

I think it meant my side is winning...

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Well America is a relatively young nation, full of different races, all trying to find this thing called 'america'. confused and hopeful, we search for that thing that is special to american culture, and what do we find?Lost of people looking for salvation from their problems by spending time to acquire things. Seems like instead of say a sun god we worship the Credit Card God, the Dollar God... Before people would probably kneel out of fear of a higher being, now a man can be bought. Not that theres anything wrong with this, its just that we are settling on this land and have yet to fully establish a national diet(say like tacos are to mexicans, what is to americans? Mcdonalds?)
Its like a pond that is struck by a huge boulder... the disturbances on the water take some time to balance out. place time and environment have a lot to do with it
YOUR ancestors used to worship so many different things that would sound absurd to us now. unless you are like native american or mexican or something your family came from elsewhere(even the natives came from elsewhere.

[gr8ridejester]

Quote by: Son of Belial I think it meant my side is winning...

What makes you think that, Son of Denial? :eek: What's your "side" anyway?

[phoenix_fire]

Well, if he takes his sn seriously, evil. Belial is supposed to be a pretty high level demon under Satan. In Milton's Paradise Lost, (if I remember correctly) Belial is a sophist, a deceiver who uses flawed, but good sounding logic. I believe he encourages the newly fallen Satan to stay in Hell. Even worse, if you want to go with the Vulgate, Belial is another name for Satan himself.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Isherwood As much as I'd like to think that was a primary cause, I suspect religious differences account for a smaller part of the reason than, for instance, cultural differences. Respect for the elderly and children is a strong cultural attitude in Japan, and it usually extends to all others as well. In many ways they enjoy a less violent and more "true to their traditions" society than we. But ever since the yakuza, taking their cues from Western gangs, has hit the scene, Japan may be headed toward a more America-like society in the future.

Religion can not be a cultural difference as well as a theistic difference? I would think that we also enjoy a less violent society. It's what defines us as people, aka religious foundations, that determine a lot of our motives in life.

[Osborn F Enready]

SoccerfreakAB2 said:
It's what defines us as people, aka religious foundations, that determine a lot of our motives in life.

I say:
What about those without religion? I see a lot of labeling going on here.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready SoccerfreakAB2 said: It's what defines us as people, aka religious foundations, that determine a lot of our motives in life. I say: What about those without religion? I see a lot of labeling going on here.

Since Soccerfreak isn't religious I don't think she(he?) is intentionally labeling anyone...

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Well, if he takes his sn seriously, evil. Belial is supposed to be a pretty high level demon under Satan. In Milton's Paradise Lost, (if I remember correctly) Belial is a sophist, a deceiver who uses flawed, but good sounding logic. I believe he encourages the newly fallen Satan to stay in Hell. Even worse, if you want to go with the Vulgate, Belial is another name for Satan himself.

1 Samuel 2:12 ...sons of Belial; they cared nothing for the LORD.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Thanks, Isher. I would have made that point, but it's more credible coming from one whom I assume is less opinionated toward favoring faith than I am. As for you, freak, dream on. Ever since Darwin and even before, detractors have hailed the final and glorious demise of Christianity, and as far as I can tell, they are still holding their breaths. The Vandals and Visigoths thought Christianity would fall with the Roman Empire. The Bolsheviks thought they could replace Christianity with Communism. Christianity yet thrives long after the Bolsheviks have fallen. Man-made ideologies and sciences have come and gone but Christianity remains. Further, I find it intersting that you back up the demise of one set of faith-based beliefs with the rise of another, right after you indicate a more cerebral approach. That's some fuzzy logic. Maybe we are not being led by our brains so much as we would like to think, eh? If you really want to know, I once heard a figure that said Jedi is the fastest growing religion in Great Britain...for what it's worth.

Manmade sciences have come, and they are still here. Religion comes and goes, not science (Greek Gods, Aztec religion, Roman Gods, etc. vs heliocentric theory, theory of gravity, etc.). Christianity in Europe is even more remarkably lower than in America. Maybe you didn't look at the statistics anyways. Christians dropped by 10% overall, while every other major religion besides Judaism is growing a lot more. Japan is atheist and has the lowest crime/murder/divorce rate among the G-7, China is atheist and their economy is about to crush ours while they destroy mexico's economy by taking all the jobs, and half of Sweden is atheist and they are one of the most peaceful nations in the world. Is it just me that is making these connections? I never indicated a cerebral approach, I'm spitted information back from statistics and have given my opinion on them. Darn. Forgot that we shouldn't do that.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready SoccerfreakAB2 said: It's what defines us as people, aka religious foundations, that determine a lot of our motives in life. I say: What about those without religion? I see a lot of labeling going on here.

What I meant was beliefs; beliefs define our foundations, thus focusing our thoughts and actions around the growing vines of our influenced knowledge, not necessarily religion. Wrong word. Labels are appropriate, in fact, many take pride in being labeled a muslim, atheist, or christian.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Son of Belial Since Soccerfreak isn't religious I don't think she(he?) is intentionally labeling anyone...

<------mr. curiosity. Look at description!

[US Independent]

I think the main reason why christianity is shrinking in America is because of science.

We have better information we don't have to rely on a God to tell us why it rains or why the earth rotates around the sun (christians used to believe the sun rotates around the earth). We can credibly assume evolution, or at least part of evolution, is real.
Religion started as a way to explain our exsitence and natural phenomenon. Now that we have science we no longer need it to explain things. Although we do need some sort of religion to keep morally correct virtues.

What does a good economy have to do with atheism. China wasn't so powerful fifty years ago and they were atheistic back then.

Sweden is peaceful (1) because nobody wants to invade a country that offers nothing other then horribly addicting chocolate and meatballs, (2) they choose to be neutral in every war, (3) they do not arrest drug addicts, etc. (instead they give them sterile needles), (4) they do not have an army to be unpeaceful with.

Japan has had a bloody past (WWII, and the samurais). However their culture reflects a more calm and peaceful atmosphere. I suppose it could be buddhaism, but I suspect it has something to do with respect. Not many Americans practice it.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: US Independent Sweden is peaceful (1) because nobody wants to invade a country that offers nothing other then horribly addicting chocolate and meatballs, (2) they choose to be neutral in every war, (3) they do not arrest drug addicts, etc. (instead they give them sterile needles), (4) they do not have an army to be unpeaceful with.

Quote by: US Independent I agree with Ann Coulter we should invade the muslim lands, kill their leaders, and convert them to chrisitianity...we'd be much peacer then.

heh...

Quote by: US Independent ...respect. Not many Americans practice it.

Quote by: US Independent If people do not agree with the majority AKA:Christians then they can go suck an egg.

heh...

[phoenix_fire]

Freak, sure some scientific ideas have endured, but many have been discredited. Alchemy for example. How about the four humours? You know, for years people thought nothing could travel faster than sound. Science is by its very nature changeable. God endures. The rates you quote for Japan cannot be directly traced to religion. Maybe it has something to do with GEEZ, I DON'T KNOW, the fact that the US is highly and dangerously individualistic while Japanese culture, of necessity, strongly encourages community and group thinking?!? But surely that has nothing to do with crime, murder, or divorce! OH WAIT, China also has gross human rights violations. LET'S BE LIKE THEM!!!

As to the dropping numbers of professing Christians, I am honestly unconcerned. For centuries, the western world had been under a socially compulsory system of belief. Therefore you got a lot of Christians who didn't really know what they were saying. This is become less the norm. If the numbers of pseudo-believers are dropping, all the better. In all honesty, those who think they are Christian but are not are the hardest to evangelize.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Science is by its very nature changeable. God endures.

Opinion stated as fact. You have no evidence of your God or that he endures. Once more you're falling back on a book that has been proven to be false. Want to talk about theories that turn out to be fake? How about the Bible saying bats are birds?

[IndieC]

What? Wo! Did I hear someoen had PROVED the Bible to be false? Well... whoever did that didn't actually do it for a start and secondly I would like to point out that history can neither be proven correct or false. Some Professors of history still maintain that the holocaust never happened, and yet they're still Professors, people respected for their work.

Ah, well, you might say, the Bible is not history. Sorry, but anyone who thinks that the Bible should not be studied by historians is quite frankly ignorant of what history actually is, as well as being an incompetent historian, simply because you must take all the factors into account in order to create a historical analysis which is as unbiased as possible. The Bible, whether you like it or not, is a historical account, and can and has been used as evidence in historical works. Just because it is the book upon which a religion is partially based does not mean it can be simply thrust out of the window, and any competent historian would agree on this point.

Also, please quote to me where in the Bible it says that bats are birds, because i missed out on that one... I haven't read that bit yet obviously...

Finally, i think what phoenix_fire is trying to say is that Christianity has had the same views, and has remained unchanged for the last 2 centuries, while science is always changing. For example, a conference in Paris in the 19th century which proved in 51 scientific ways for God to be an impossibility later found itself disproved, in all 51 ways by science itself.

[Matt W]

Finally, i think what phoenix_fire is trying to say is that Christianity has had the same views, and has remained unchanged for the last 2 centuries, while science is always changing

Errr...Vatican 2, anyone?