So it begins...

[IndieC]

Quote by: Matt W Errr...Vatican 2, anyone?

That's assuming that the Catholic Church is Christianity, which I don't beleive it is. In fact, i have very little respect for the Catholic Church, I think they're a bunch of power hungry twats who think they rule the world and are sadly almost correct.

The fact is, Christianity is still based on the Bible, a book which in the most part is more than 2000 years old, and which is all more than 1400 years old, while science is based on fundamental laws, which aren't that old, and which are almost constantly changing (there are a few exceptions to this, but not very many at all).

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Freak, sure some scientific ideas have endured, but many have been discredited. Alchemy for example. How about the four humours? You know, for years people thought nothing could travel faster than sound. Science is by its very nature changeable. God endures. The rates you quote for Japan cannot be directly traced to religion. Maybe it has something to do with GEEZ, I DON'T KNOW, the fact that the US is highly and dangerously individualistic while Japanese culture, of necessity, strongly encourages community and group thinking?!? But surely that has nothing to do with crime, murder, or divorce! OH WAIT, China also has gross human rights violations. LET'S BE LIKE THEM!!! As to the dropping numbers of professing Christians, I am honestly unconcerned. For centuries, the western world had been under a socially compulsory system of belief. Therefore you got a lot of Christians who didn't really know what they were saying. This is become less the norm. If the numbers of pseudo-believers are dropping, all the better. In all honesty, those who think they are Christian but are not are the hardest to evangelize.

Ok, so science changes. Each time it becomes more right, since we can look to the past for their scientific viewpoints, make our own observations, etc. Maybe Christianity has endured. But is that because we like its hocus pocus touchy feely teachings? Or maybe because America is the strongest nation in the world and the majority is Christian. Hmm...sure beats me. It can't be the fact that thousands go out to Africa and South America and try to teach others Christianity, or when they controlled Europe with brutality, greed, and gross dogma for a thousand years. Can't be that. It most definitely can't be the fact that nearly every European government, from Spain to England who were Christian to the bone for its profits, invaded Asia, Africa, and America over the course of hundreds of years, not simply converting but forcing the religion on millions. No, definitely not. Well, geez, I wonder why Christianity has endured.

Haha! Those who are Christian but really aren't. I get the point, but what's funny is that that's pretty much half the Christian population. Damn, remove all those hypocrticial suckers and Christianity is nothing in America. Yeah, good idea, ruin your own religion by removing the ones who "claim" to practice it. It's clearly the fact that Christianity is boring and was never more valid than Wicca or Islam. It's becoming a free for all for all those believers out there. And most people are screwing it completely and jumping on the agnosticism bandwagon. Hey, maybe we can figure out some things about humans and less about who controls the clouds. Good for them.

[Son of Belial]

Deuteronomy 11 13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls ; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind; 11:15 Every raven after his kind; 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl, 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle, 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

Bats are unclean birds. Word.

Deuteronomy 14:7 Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you.

Hares don't chew their cuds...

Psalm 19 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

The sun revolves around the earth.


Seriously, I can point out dumb shit all day.

[SteveA]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Manmade sciences have come, and they are still here. Religion comes and goes, not science (Greek Gods, Aztec religion, Roman Gods, etc. vs heliocentric theory, theory of gravity, etc.). Christianity in Europe is even more remarkably lower than in America. Maybe you didn't look at the statistics anyways. Christians dropped by 10% overall, while every other major religion besides Judaism is growing a lot more. Japan is atheist and has the lowest crime/murder/divorce rate among the G-7, China is atheist and their economy is about to crush ours while they destroy mexico's economy by taking all the jobs, and half of Sweden is atheist and they are one of the most peaceful nations in the world. Is it just me that is making these connections? I never indicated a cerebral approach, I'm spitted information back from statistics and have given my opinion on them. Darn. Forgot that we shouldn't do that.

I think you hit on something. The middle east has a lot of faith based institutions also and much of the wealth there comes from outside the area. I also see an undeserved faith in the benevolence of government as akin to religion. Either way things are based less upon reality and rational thought but instead are moved toward rituals, faith in the imaginary and less concern over reality here compared to the importance of an unknowable afterlife.

[IndieC]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Ok, so science changes. Each time it becomes more right, since we can look to the past for their scientific viewpoints, make our own observations, etc. Maybe Christianity has endured. But is that because we like its hocus pocus touchy feely teachings? Or maybe because America is the strongest nation in the world and the majority is Christian. Hmm...sure beats me. It can't be the fact that thousands go out to Africa and South America and try to teach others Christianity, or when they controlled Europe with brutality, greed, and gross dogma for a thousand years. Can't be that. It most definitely can't be the fact that nearly every European government, from Spain to England who were Christian to the bone for its profits, invaded Asia, Africa, and America over the course of hundreds of years, not simply converting but forcing the religion on millions. No, definitely not. Well, geez, I wonder why Christianity has endured.

You know, you're making an excellent point there. It's incredible that despite all of these past atrocities Christianity has endured. In fact, most Christian rulers in the middle ages could be described as war criminals in our modern sense, and the Catholic Church repressed so many people, and brainwashed so many as well, so that its reputation should be such as that of Hitler's Germany wouldn't you agree? So, why isn't it? I mean, I'm not a great fan of the Catholic Church, I could despise it for the vision of Christianity it sends to other, non-christian, people, but I can't compare it to Hitler's Germany. Why?

On top of this, why is it that, in the modern world, so many people are still Christian despite the fact that all of this repression has gone away. People are more likely to get beaten up for being Christian nowadays than they are to be praised for it. People talk about religious respect or tolerence, but its' never for Christians is it? It's all for Muslims. I agree, Muslims should not be discriminated against for their religion, but neither should Christians. Muslims should not be attacked or repressed for being Muslims, but neither should Christians. Muslims should be able to grow up, and live in places where they are easily accepted and respected for who they are, but so should Christians and Hindus, and Buddhists, and Shintoists, and Animalists, and other Polytheists, Monotheists, etc. The fact is, they're not. What is the most repressed religion according to law nowadays in the UK? Christianity. In a few years we will see people who are helping drunks home for example after a night out, and handing them a booklet explaining what Christianity is, and even staying and talking with them if they want to, even if it isn't about Christianity, being arrested due to new laws on religious descrimination if the drunk person is a Muslim.

So the big question is, why are people still Christian, if the laws are starting to repress them for being so? Why do they hold on? Why did they hold on to their beliefs during Roman times, when they were thrown to the lions? Is it because their Rectors of Vicars, or Religious leaders are brainwashing them? Is it because of peer pressure from other Christians? Or is it because they think it's true? Is it because they have felt God in their lives? Is it because they live better lives than non-Christians because they are Christian?

If it weren't true, why were people willing to die for it in Roman times, die sometimes very brutal deaths. Why didn't people just stop and refuse to be Christian, why did they continue to openly express their beliefs? Was it just trendy to die painfully on a cross proclaiming your beliefs, or was there something else, something that other people couldn't see?

So many questions, and I believe the answer is that there has to be something else that keeps people Christian, whatever it might be, which simply means that there must be some kind of truth in it somewhere, right? People from all sections of society are Christian. Upper class, middle class, lower class, or whatever you want to call them. Kings, Queens, and your common factory worker. The Liberal 'educated' classes, and the steadfast socialists also have Christians within their ranks.

All the signs are that Chrstianity is going to become a repressed religion soon, so obviously, some people are leaving the Church, because they don't really believe that God will protect them, thus don't really believe in God and Jesus their saviour. Some are leaving because of peer pressure from non-Christians who advocate agnosticism or atheism (some people get confused between the two). There are all sorts of reasons, but the fact is, a lot are remaining. In my university alone, there are several hundred declared Christians of various types (Baptist, Anglican, Methodist, etc.) just out of the students. Some have been brought up that way, but others have been converted, and not forcefully at that. All are helpful, nice people, who are quite willing to be your friend, even if you do 'immoral' things such as sex before marriage or are homosexual. They have a general policy of accepting everyone for who they are, and respecting them despite their beliefs, and i know of some who were frowned upon by the rest simply for judging people based on their sexuality. Why are Christians like this then? Granted, some aren't, but most that i know are, and those who aren't are seen by those i know as intolerent, and people who should be closer to God so they can see how bad their actions are. Basically, intolerence is a sin and therefore bad. So, what's wrong with being Christian if they're always like this? Don't they lead better lives than most others? They don't get stupidly drunk, don't vandalise, don't insult you, don't start fights, so aren't they simple better behaved than most people simply because of their religion?

You might say 'Yes, the moral teachings of Jesus Christ are generally good to live by, and it's a great way to lead your life, but I'm not going to worship him'. Well, yes, they are, and it is, but then, why do all these Christians go to Church every sunday, sometimes twice a sunday, and go to bible studies, and consecrate their time to helping other people so much, and actually generally enjoying it? Well, the only answer I can think of is that they have felt something in their lives that has pushed them to do so. I mean, would you enjoy helping drunks home, or even talking to drunks for that matter? I know that I can get very annoyed with my friends when they're drunk, simply because they're just being stupid all the time, and acting like babies in many cases, just a tad stronger and who could easily do the wrong thing and get killed or beaten up if you're not careful. It's horrible, and I hate doing it, so why do these people actually enjoy doing it? Why sit in a corner for a quarter of an hour every day seemingly talking to yourself about other people and hoping they will get better, or do the right thing, or be comforted, or whatever. Why, if it's all a hoax? Well, maybe it isn't... Maybe they actually feel something others don't. Maybe there is actually a God that they can feel acting in their lives. Are they all just deluded? Well... it would be a pretty big outbreak of delusion, throughout time for that matter, so i think we can rule that one out don't you? There have been more Christians in the last 2000 years than there are people living in the world today. That is to say over 6.5 Billion. Now that's just from records we have, historically. That's not counting all those who aren't in the records (and the records are very incomplete). Sure, so they were forced into believing. Uhhh... wait a minute... The French Revolution happened because the lower classes felt repressed by the King, so why didn't all of Europe rise up and overthrow the Catholic Church? Ohh... yeah, they were Brainwashed... right... peasants in the middle of nowhere were brainwashed... yeah... i can believe that... People who went to Church every Sunday and didn't see the vicar for the rest of the week were brainwashed... right... That makes perfect sense right? Do I look convinced? Well, no, not really I'm afraid.

Better luck next time.

[IndieC]

Quote by: CheckMate Catholic Church biggest twisters of truth, more so than any other nasty group, There as Never been, ANY TRUTH FROM THERE. just cover ups on top of cover ups it sounds like whats the name for it ---------- ------- i swear ed know. so some are good i think will i think will there as been some can any body name one and don't come back with mother Tresa .that's easy.

Well, if you were coherent i might be able to answer you, but you're not so I can't... Try re-writing your post so the grammar and spelling are correct...

[IndieC]

Quote by: Son of Belial Bats are unclean birds. Word.

Your first quote from Deuteronomy isn't in the NIV (New International Version) Bible.

Quote by: Son of Belial Hares don't chew their cuds...

Well, they eat their droppings to re-digest them from what I know, so...

Quote by: Son of Belial The sun revolves around the earth.

Actually, if you read on it goes on to say:

Psalm 19:6 "It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat."

Basically, it rises in the sky on one side, and sets on the opposite side. In what way is that the sun revolving around the earth? I mean, the sun does actually rise on one side of the sky and set on the other, opposite side of the sky doesn't it?

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: IndieC Your first quote from Deuteronomy isn't in the NIV (New International Version) Bible.

It's in the KJV. Mine is right and yours is wrong, because I said so.

Well, they eat their droppings to re-digest them from what I know, so...

You might want to look that up.

I mean, the sun does actually rise on one side of the sky and set on the other, opposite side of the sky doesn't it?

No.

[SteveA]

So, what's wrong with being Christian if they're always like this? Don't they lead better lives than most others? They don't get stupidly drunk, don't vandalise, don't insult you, don't start fights, so aren't they simple better behaved than most people simply because of their religion?

Christians come in a mixed bag like other groups. I've seen a lot of hypocracy coming from people who claim to be Christian.

The real question is whether or not religions make people better than they'd be otherwise and I'm not certain they do. I believe they can but then again it's not like people without a religion at all can't live a happy/productive/moral life either. We tend to assume religions encourage this but you can also show many ways in which religions throw blame and incite intolerance as well.

But I don't think many people care much about others private (non)religious lives. Most complaints stem from the government encroaching into our personal lives. So as the private realm is encroached upon by public interests, we see these clashes more pronounced. The same thing happened in England with the Church of England.

I don't feel threatened much by religions because they don't typically send police to your home to take you to church, but depending on the laws, occasionally the effect is similar and some people resent it. Though you might feel Christians are better people, and I might even agree with you (though again, I've seen people who claim to be Christians that are hypocrits and blind enough to their own faults that they hardly realize it), it shouldn't deny non-Christians from privately pursuing their desires also.

Though we might consider the U.S. to be rather tolerant of foreign cultures, I'm not so certain that's true. I best most anyone who came here from asian or the middle east would unknowingly violate many laws if they were to live here but follow their own customs. We see ourselves as relatively tolerant because we're tolerant of much of our own culture (I'm thinking of the U.S), but that's of course a limited perspective.

[SteveA]

Quote by: IndieC I mean, the sun does actually rise on one side of the sky and set on the other, opposite side of the sky doesn't it?

Most of it comes from the rotation of the Earth. The Earth is spinning and that's what produces the apparent celestial motion.

Along with the reference to the four corners of the Earth, it appears the 'word of God' was a bit naive on how the Earth operated. So why would references to the creation of the Earth be any less inaccurate?

Your first quote from Deuteronomy isn't in the NIV (New International Version) Bible.

What was incorrect in prior revisions?

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: SteveA I think you hit on something. The middle east has a lot of faith based institutions also and much of the wealth there comes from outside the area. I also see an undeserved faith in the benevolence of government as akin to religion. Either way things are based less upon reality and rational thought but instead are moved toward rituals, faith in the imaginary and less concern over reality here compared to the importance of an unknowable afterlife.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make Steve.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: IndieC I mean, the sun does actually rise on one side of the sky and set on the other, opposite side of the sky doesn't it?

The sun does not "rise" nor does it "set." Technically speaking.