Liberals As "Religously Intolerant"

[lsbskins1]

I would like anyone who believes that Liberals are intolerent of Christians to explain what we do that makes us intolerent. What do we need to stop doing to make you happy? I realize that most Americans are Believers. When polled, most say they believe in God and belong to some church. I accept that I, as an agnostic, am in the minority. This is not the question that this issue revolves around. This question is about what constitutes actual religious intolerence. I have never advocated banning any "mainstream" religion. Nor have I ever advocated preventing anyone worshiping in the church of their choice, according to the dictates of their faith.

Yet, when I do advocate for keeping prayer out of public schools, I am accused of being "intolerent". I don't say you can't pray. I say you can't lead the school or the crowd at the football game in prayer over a public address system. I believe that crosses the line. It imposes your believe system on those who do not share it. It does not matter, in my view, that the majority of your audience shares similar beliefs. It, effectively, puts me in a "pew", in your church, against my will. Why, when I claim my right to chose to not go to "church", do you have the right to bring that church to the football game my nephew is playing in? How am I being intolerent when I ask only that you express your religion in a religious setting, with a group of people who have chossen to join you in this setting because they share your basic belief system?

There are obviously other examples, but lets start here...

[belverron]

Quote by: lsbskins1 How am I being intolerent when I ask only that you express your religion in a religious setting, with a group of people who have chossen to join you in this setting because they share your basic belief system?

Well, clearly you can't define the areas it's OK to practice religion in. There's no problem with religion in schools; there's a problem with schools promoting religion.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: lsbskins1 Yet, when I do advocate for keeping prayer out of public schools, I am accused of being "intolerent". I don't say you can't pray. I say you can't lead the school or the crowd at the football game in prayer over a public address system. I believe that crosses the line. It imposes your believe system on those who do not share it. It does not matter, in my view, that the majority of your audience shares similar beliefs. It, effectively, puts me in a "pew", in your church, against my will. Why, when I claim my right to chose to not go to "church", do you have the right to bring that church to the football game my nephew is playing in? How am I being intolerent when I ask only that you express your religion in a religious setting, with a group of people who have chossen to join you in this setting because they share your basic belief system?

I think that is the most hard hitting, well worded, blunt, and concise paragragh I have yet seen that describes my feelings about this subject.


Well done.

[Merlov01]

What's wrong in opposing religous schools and classes? That's not intolerent, the same as it's not 'intolerant' throwing rapists in jail.

[Irene]

I can understand your position in prayers in school, I being a christian, would not want Muslim prayer or Hindu, etc mandated on my children. A problem I do have with the school is my children get an education on Hannukah, Ramadan, Yom Kipper, Rash Hashannah and that fake African holiday (sorry, brain cramp, can't remember the name)
but when we have a break for the christian holidays of Easter and Christmas it is called spring and winter break. Call it what it is, Christmas holiday. The other I don't agree with that is intolerant is if a community wants to put up a nativity scene. You'll soon be hearing about that alot. Do you have a problem with a nativity scene???

[RickSp]

Quote by: Irene I can understand your position in prayers in school, I being a christian, would not want Muslim prayer or Hindu, etc mandated on my children. A problem I do have with the school is my children get an education on Hannukah, Ramadan, Yom Kipper, Rash Hashannah and that fake African holiday (sorry, brain cramp, can't remember the name) but when we have a break for the christian holidays of Easter and Christmas it is called spring and winter break. Call it what it is, Christmas holiday. The other I don't agree with that is intolerant is if a community wants to put up a nativity scene. You'll soon be hearing about that alot. Do you have a problem with a nativity scene???

I want my kids to be exposed to a wide spectrum of views. The world is a big place filled with a diverse range of peoples. I have no problem with learning about various religions in school. Not learning about Islam, Hinduism, Judiasm and Christianity would be a significant gap in a modern education given that the followers of all of these religions are still using these faiths as an excuse to murder their fellow man. Knowledge can bring tolerance - a commodity that is always in short supply. I would just rather not have religion practiced in public school. Private schools are another matter altogether.

Anyone who finds it bothersome that Winter and Spring breaks are not called "Christmas" and "Easter" breaks has a narrow view of history. Solstice and equinox celebrations are not limited to Christianity and indeed pre-date Christianity by several millenia.

I have no problem with nativity scenes on church lawns or in front of private houses. In front of City Hall is another matter. In my city they put up a nativity scene, a menorah, something Kwanza related and a snow man. Rather than endorsing a single religion it is a celebration of the diversity of our community. Works for me.

[belverron]

Quote by: RickSP I would just rather not have religion practiced in public school.

Again I would llike to point out that it is perfectly reasonable to practice religion in schools, for students or teachers, so long as it is not somehow being promoted with state money.

[RickSp]

Quote by: belverron Again I would llike to point out that it is perfectly reasonable to practice religion in schools, for students or teachers, so long as it is not somehow being promoted with state money.

That was my use of the word "practice". I have no problem with a comparative religions course so long as religious instruction is not being provided with state monies. Private schools can do as they wish.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Irene but when we have a break for the christian holidays of Easter and Christmas it is called spring and winter break. Call it what it is, Christmas holiday. The other I don't agree with that is intolerant is if a community wants to put up a nativity scene. You'll soon be hearing about that alot. Do you have a problem with a nativity scene???

Well, I wouldn't worry too much about the Christmas holidays, Irene, because as much as Christians want you to believe it does, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Christ.

Celebrating the Winter Solstice (Dec. 22) goes back beyond recorded history, in almost every pagan culture world wide. It is the universal celebration of renewal, of the seasons beginning their inexorable return towards spring and rebirth, the circle of life, and was so vital and important to the pagan European cultures that the Christians usurped it in order to facilitate conversions to Christianity. That's where the Christmas tree, wreaths, mistletoe and yewl come from. And as far as anyone knows, Christ was born in July or some such, although I'm unclear that anyone has any idea whatsoever.

So when my brother asks how I can celebrate Christmas and be an atheist, that's what I tell him... it's the season of natural renewal, and a celebration of humanity, the love of family, our fellow man and the dream of peace on earth. If he wants to insert Christ into my celebration, he's more than welcome. :)

And Spring Break just happens to precede the Vernal Equinox too.

.

[brien]

Quote by: Irene I can understand your position in prayers in school, I being a christian, would not want Muslim prayer or Hindu, etc mandated on my children. A problem I do have with the school is my children get an education on Hannukah, Ramadan, Yom Kipper, Rash Hashannah and that fake African holiday (sorry, brain cramp, can't remember the name) but when we have a break for the christian holidays of Easter and Christmas it is called spring and winter break. Call it what it is, Christmas holiday. The other I don't agree with that is intolerant is if a community wants to put up a nativity scene. You'll soon be hearing about that alot. Do you have a problem with a nativity scene???

I think you mean Kwanza. And Yom Kippur. But diversity is what has led the government schools to get all goofy over "religion" in the schools. There is a difference between praying and teaching religion. Religion, as a cultural study, is not in itself unconstitutional. It is, when it is being taught as a faith for the students, where it crosses the line as an endorsement.

Government has become downright paranoid when it comes to religious expression. It can't even make the pretense of alignment with any religious organization. Such is why the elimination of natvity scenes and other religious symbols on government property.

I understand everyone's frustration with these matters. The Christain because Christianity has been in the government schools since day one. The atheist or constitutionalist viewpoint that religion doesn't have a place in government anything. I am waiting for the removal of "In God We Trust" off the nation's currency.

In the long run, organized religion doesn't belong in the government. Be it schools, courthouses, or legislatures. Diversity of all organized religion is a good thing for America's culture but when assigning holidays for them, well that is tantamount to government endorsement of religion as well. If every culture and religion has a holiday place on our calendar, we would be celebratiing more holidays than working. Somehow, I don't see America that far advanced in civilization.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Sonart Well, I wouldn't worry too much about the Christmas holidays, Irene, because as much as Christians want you to believe it does, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Christ.

The birth of Christ wasn't celebrated on December 25 until at least 300 years after the reported death of Jesus. It was chosen to coincide with the celebration of the birth a Mithras, the Invincible Sun. Mithras was also born of a virgin, had twelve followers, was killed and rose again on the vernal equinox (Easter), was called saviour and the "light of the world". Several of the religions that were ancient when Christianity was new featured elements which the Christians borrowed, or if indeed they happened as reported were remarkable coincidences.

Gods and saviours, Exploring their similarities to Jesus Christ

[Sonart]

Quote by: RickSp The birth of Christ wasn't celebrated on December 25 until at least 300 years after the reported death of Jesus.

How about that... the Council of Nicea and the official editing of the Bible anthology.

.

[rez]

Quote by: lsbskins1 I would like anyone who believes that Liberals are intolerent of Christians to explain what we do that makes us intolerent. What do we need to stop doing to make you happy?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...811332,00.html

[Lilith]

I'm 30 years old and I have always remembered that when we were let out of school those two weeks in December, then and now, has always been called Christmas break or understood that the kids and teachers were getting two weeks off for the holidays, Christmas and New years. "Winter break" if it's now called that, is a new term to me, those two weeks off in Dec have always meant Christmas break. As for Spring Break, that usually happens in March, does it not? At least it has happened that way here, I think. And Spring Break never had anything to do with Easter I don't think. Just a week off in the school year, to give the teachers a break to catch up on stuff and give the kids a reason to be happy and party. At least college kids love it. Watch Mtv around that time of year to view all the partying that occurs. I love nativity scences. I have a whole collection of them packed away somewhere. My parents used to buy a me a new one each Christmas to add to my collection. And I grew up in a most secular family in the heart of the Bible belt. Besides, since living in Texas since I was five years old, I don't know of anyone who dream of banning nativity scences! They abound at Christmas time in front yards, chruch yards, etc. And all the nativity pageants that occur. I was in one when I was little, no wait, that was my brother, he got to be Joseph. I was in a Christmas play, where I got to a reindeer. Ack! I hated that costume. I had to wear all brown and paint my face and wear these god awful antlers on my head! I wanted to be Mary! and this was in a public school no less.

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: belverron Well, clearly you can't define the areas it's OK to practice religion in. There's no problem with religion in schools; there's a problem with schools promoting religion.

If you want to pray silently, in the football stadium, in the grocery store, at your desk in school, anywhere... you have that absolute right. I would not limit where you practice. I would limit you from involving me in that practice.

[Critter]

Quote by: RickSp I want my kids to be exposed to a wide spectrum of views. The world is a big place filled with a diverse range of peoples. I have no problem with learning about various religions in school. Not learning about Islam, Hinduism, Judiasm and Christianity would be a significant gap in a modern education given that the followers of all of these religions are still using these faiths as an excuse to murder their fellow man. Knowledge can bring tolerance - a commodity that is always in short supply. I would just rather not have religion practiced in public school. Private schools are another matter altogether. Anyone who finds it bothersome that Winter and Spring breaks are not called "Christmas" and "Easter" breaks has a narrow view of history. Solstice and equinox celebrations are not limited to Christianity and indeed pre-date Christianity by several millenia. I have no problem with nativity scenes on church lawns or in front of private houses. In front of City Hall is another matter. In my city they put up a nativity scene, a menorah, something Kwanza related and a snow man. Rather than endorsing a single religion it is a celebration of the diversity of our community. Works for me.

W0rd.

[belverron]

Quote by: lsbskins1 If you want to pray silently, in the football stadium, in the grocery store, at your desk in school, anywhere... you have that absolute right. I would not limit where you practice. I would limit you from involving me in that practice.

Silently? The only reason I would make that restriction in the classroom is if it disrupts the learning environment.

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: belverron Silently? The only reason I would make that restriction in the classroom is if it disrupts the learning environment

Why is it necessary to your religious freedom that you pray out loud, in public? Does not having the freedom to go to the church of your choice without fear of retribution or legal consequence, satisfy that freedom. Why must you be able to take over forums that are not intended as religious ones to satisfy your need for "freedom"?

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: lsbskins1 Why is it necessary to your religious freedom that you pray out loud, in public? Does not having the freedom to go to the church of your choice without fear of retribution or legal consequence, satisfy that freedom. Why must you be able to take over forums that are not intended as religious ones to satisfy your need for "freedom"?

Matthew 6:5-7
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.


Personally, I've been getting a kick out of the "Message" Bible in modern English, or as I like to call it, "The Bible for Dummies, With an Agenda." Talk about adding and removing words... this is great:
Matthew 6:5-7

And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat?

Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace.

The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God.

[US Independent]

At the Columbine school, the one with the shooting, kids and families painted tiles in the school hallway in commemoration of the kids and adults that died there. Some of the tiles had religious quotes on them. The school took them down I believe that is called "intolerant". If you can't [tolerate standing in a stand while people around you pray, that is considered "intolerant". If you dislike the fact that kids pray before they eat their lunch at the school that is considered "intolerant". People have the right to believe in whatever they want. But it crosses the line when they can't sing about Christmas but they can about Hannuka, Yom Kippur, etc. The law says "seperation of church & state" not seperation of Christian church and state. I understand that if we actually impose the law our children would be missing quite alot of their education, but if you are going to allow all the other religions in school you ought to let christians express their faith too. As long as the school staff and textbooks do not promote any religious beliefs (christian or otherwise) students should be able to do and say whatever they want to say regardless of the background belief...as long as the student does not impose his belief on other students