Fear as a tool for religion

[Son of Belial]

Someone brought up Christians being driven by fear, and this brought some rather angry responses. I wanted to start a thread about the topic, on its own, instead of in the other thread.

This is an article I wrote on Heaven, Hell, and fear in the Bible.

Quote by: LetThereBe I do not disagree with you that most Christians (like most people) are guided and driven by fear (myself often included). HOWEVER: that is NOT what the Christian religion teaches.

Let's see what it teaches, shall we?



In the Christian faith, much time is spent dwelling on Hell. In the New Testament alone, Hell is mentioned by name fifteen times, and alluded to in others. It does not appear in the Old Testament, except perhaps in vague passing references and by words such as "Gehenna" and "Tartarus," which are often argued to have very different meanings than the word "Hell," which itself is derived from the Norse Hel.

Of the fifteen times Hell is mentioned by name in the New Testament,

3 simply describe it as fiery
(Matthew 5:22, 18:9, James 3:6)

6 do not describe it
(Matthew 5:29, 5:30, 16:80, 23:15, 23:22, Luke 12:5)

1 describes it as the act of being destroyed, both body and soul, and does not mention being tormented
(Matthew 10:28)

3 describe it in greater detail of fiery, tormentful, and with worms that do not die (Matthew 9:43, 9:45, Mark 9:46-48)

1 goes into great detail about the fantastic torment(Luke 16)

1 describes it as a dark dungeon of gloom and shackles(2 Peter 2:4)


Interestingly, it is Matthew who seemed most obsessive about recording every reference to Hell; although Luke went into great detail in a parable about Hell, he mentions it only one other time. Mark mentions it only once, and John - who was known as the most esoteric of the gospel authors, and the only one who spoke directly of the Oneness of Jesus and Yahweh, explaining Jesus as the Logos of Yahweh(Logos, meaning the personified creative power of a being emanating from it with its own individual thoughts, and appearing in most translations as "Word"), never actually bothered to mention Hell at all.

Even those Christians who never read the Bible(which is a great number of them) can describe Hell in great detail. It's a great fiery cavern, or a scorched, blazing earth, with a lake made of fire, where souls suffer, scream and writhe, and every inch of the person inside and out burns with the greatest intensity possible, a heat greater than any heat comprehensible to man. The fact that an indefinate punishment for a finite sin is unjust and unheard of in any other religion goes over the heads of the Bible-thumpers screaming fire and brimstone to unbelievers and sinners(and in some instances, stillborn or unbaptized children). Rarely does a sermon go by, in a church or on TV by some money-thieving fraud, where the horrors of Hell are not, at the least, alluded to as a reminder to scare the flock into subjecting themselves to the will of a hateful and fearful god.

Luke 5:12 even goes so far as to explicitly state, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." This directly contradicts the statement in Matthew 10:28 that you should "...not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." How one scripture can say that you will be tormented in Hell after you body is destroyed, and the other say that your body, and your soul, will be destroyed in Hell has never been explained to me except by ridiculous interpretations to fit the beliefs of the speaker, such as "destroy means to seperate from God."

This is also used to explain such verses as "the soul that sins shall die," or "the wages of sin is death." The only way a soul could be tormented and have those two verses make any sense is to explain death as seperation from God, or a mortal death without redemption - which does not, in fact, have anything to do with what they actually meant, since they are from the Old Testament, back when it was the Hebrew religion, and it must be noted that the Hebrews did not believe in punishment in the afterlife. In their faith, death was the only punishment, and scripture further states that "all sins are acquitted by death." The Old Testament does mention Heaven hundreds of times as a reward; again, the Hebrew people saw Heaven as the reward, and nonexistence as the punishment. No Hell was needed.

The only choices a Christian has is to ignore these scriptures, which is what they do until someone forces them to explain them; Say that they are false, which would mean the Bible lies; or, finally, make up some idiotic excuse for why death actually means something other than death.


Now, despite all this talk about Hell - books can, and probably have, been written on the subject Biblically and historically, and certainly have in fiction - what of Heaven?

The word Heaven is found in the entire Bible six-hundred and ten times. Yet of all of these, very few of them actually describe it. Even though the gospels alone give the greatest details about Hell - indeed, Hell is mentioned only two or three times outside of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and not at all in John(by name) - Heaven is mentioned in the four Gospels, including John, one-hundred and thirty-nine times. Of all of these, not a single one describes Heaven. They are all passing references, such as the Lord's Prayer("Our father who is in Heaven..."), our the meek inhereting the kingdom of Heaven. We're told it's safe there, and that we can build up treasure there... but for what purpose? We are told to give up treasure here because it will rust and be worthless, but then told to collect treasure in Heaven, where it won't be needed anyway. Again, Christians fail to think of the illogic of the whole thing. You should not have money because someday it will rot and rust and be useless, or thieves may steal it(maybe they meant televangelists?). Last time I checked, my monetary problems weren't with rusting or thieves, and I needed it for food and shelter. No one has properly explained to me exactly what good money would be in Heaven, except to sit around and stare at in a miserly fashion.

And I know most people take the "treasure in Heaven" reference as symbolic, but believe it or not, I've known people who believed it literally, and saw it as sort of a medal of honor... the better you are, the more gold you get to show off in Heaven. Those who didn't do that well but still got to Heaven will only get a little gold, but then the Lord will take everyone's gold away again and dry the tears of the people who didn't get much.

I swear I'm not making this up. A Christian actually told me this, word for word, and with a straight mind and serious demeanor. He believed this. I would laugh but it makes me too sad.

So aside from being given treasure that will be useless and then taken away from you again 5 minutes later for no reason, what else is Heaven like?

Well, scriptures alude to Heaven as being up... up there, somewhere, in the sky. This was because early man didn't know that there was a great cosmos "up there," and saw it as ascending the earth's limits, the logical dwelling place of the Gods. It also speaks of Heaven as filled with water... indeed, Genesis says that there is Earth, then the sky, then water everywhere that the sky holds out. When it rains, it is because the sky(actually, it says Heaven) opens and lets the water in. So yes, Heaven is a giant pool that opens up to let rain down.

And God and the angels live in it, I suppose in a dry area.

Heaven is also mentioned as being in the clouds(since Heaven was the sky), and having Four Winds. At nighttime, Heaven has stars.

You can see I'm fumbling a bit in trying to describe Heaven. Why? Simply because the Bible fumbles too. It describes Hell in a way that has led to the term "Hellish," yet Heaven seems to be the sky, somewhere, in a dry patch, where souls are happy. People there wear clean white linen, and in one place it describes Heaven as a city made of transluscent gold.

It appears that the big selling point of Heaven is that it isn't Hell. Our main information is "Hell is big, and horrible, and filled with fire and pain, and screaming souls. Heaven isn't filled with fire and screaming souls." We imagine Heaven is beautiful and happy, but about the only thing we're actually told is that it isn't Hell, which is good enough.


It's amazing that the New Testament is filled with few references to Hell, but which are exquisitely described; and many references to Heaven, none of which describe it at all.

The "good news" the Bible is supposed to bring is all Hell, and Heaven a passing reference.

Could it be that Christianity converts and then holds in its grip not through reward but through fear of punishment? One of the verses mentioned above tells you without hesitation the answer.

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." If you didn't get the picture that it's through fear, this scripture says it not once, "I will show you whom you should fear," but then emphasises with a final "Yes, I tell you, fear him," in case the first two warnings did not get it into your thick skull.

Incredibly, this one one verse says "fear" three times.

[Zealot]

Quote by: Son of Belial Someone brought up Christians being driven by fear, and this brought some rather angry responses. I wanted to start a hesitation the answer. "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." If you didn't get the picture that it's through fear, this scripture says it not once, "I will show you whom you should fear," but then emphasises with a final "Yes, I tell you, fear him," in case the first two warnings did not get it into your thick skull. Incredibly, this one one verse says "fear" three times.

Hey Son of B, tell us you have no fear when that Blk and Wht cruiser pulls up behind you on the freeway and he stays there, huh? Of course Christians fear God, we are supposed to my friend. Just like you would fear a strange knock on the door at two in the morning, right? If your doctor calls you and wants to talk to you about your wife or you, c'mon pal, think. An alcholoic fears a little glass of beer and a christian fears God like a little child fears its mother when he knows he has done wrong, right? Does the child hate its mother or does the mother hate the child? You make it sound like being fearful is something bad and you use it to damn God, why is that Son of B ? Do you hate Christians and God that much that you would resort to such deceit?

Zealot

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: Zealot Hey Son of B, tell us you have no fear when that Blk and Wht cruiser pulls up behind you on the freeway and he stays there, huh? Of course Christians fear God, we are supposed to my friend. Just like you would fear a strange knock on the door at two in the morning, right?

The difference is that the black and white cruiser or a knock at the door is feared because the person could be "bad." Someone in that context is someone you would consider a criminal. Your god, according to you, is not a criminal, and you love him. Do you love the guy who knocks on your door at 2am to shoot you or rob you?

Are you really comparing a robber, rapist and murderer to God?

If your doctor calls you and wants to talk to about you or your wife or you, c'mon pal, think. An alcholoic fears a little glass of beer and a christian fears God like a little child fears its mother when he knows he has done wrong, right? Does the child hate its mother or does the mother hate the child? You make it sound like being fearful is something bad and you use it to damn God, why is that Son of B ? Do you hate Christians and God that much that you would resort to such deceit?

I wasn't being deceitful. The Bible pushes its message through fear. It describes Hell perfectly and Heaven vaguely, despite the fact that Hell is mentioned only a dozen times but Heaven is mentioned hundreds. What does that tell you?

If you want to debate my opinion fine, but don't start slinging mud by saying I'm being deceitful.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Son of Belial It's amazing that the New Testament is filled with few references to Hell, but which are exquisitely described; and many references to Heaven, none of which describe it at all. The "good news" the Bible is supposed to bring is all Hell, and Heaven a passing reference. Could it be that Christianity converts and then holds in its grip not through reward but through fear of punishment? One of the verses mentioned above tells you without hesitation the answer. "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." If you didn't get the picture that it's through fear, this scripture says it not once, "I will show you whom you should fear," but then emphasises with a final "Yes, I tell you, fear him," in case the first two warnings did not get it into your thick skull. Incredibly, this one one verse says "fear" three times.

B.F. Skinner showed some time ago that negative reinforcement along with positive reinforcement works better at modifying animal behavior. Humans included of course.

Operant Conditioning - B.F. Skinner

Starboy

[Jack]

You make it sound like being fearful is something bad and you use it to damn God, why is that Son of B ? Do you hate Christians and God that much that you would resort to such deceit?

Perhaps you didn't notice that the "fear" concept was from bible quotations, not made up by Son of Belial.
And since when is questioning god and the bible equal to hate? I haven't read a single atheist here say that they hate christians. Some may hate christianity, but most of us just consider christians themselves confused people who accept supernatural suppositions over reality.

[Flip Jackson]

I may be in the minority of Christians here, but fear is a poor way to drive anyone to do anything. I don't really know much about Hell, nor do I care. My religion kind of takes the opposite approach. We teach a TON about heaven, and almost nothing about Hell. Fear drives people to mediocre acts. They want to be good enough to go to heaven, but want to do so with the least effort possible.

We teach that the better you are, the better your standing in the next life. Basically, you will be with the kind of people that you are.

Just pretend for a second. If you were far from perfect, would you want to live with a God? Wouldn't that be a little uncomfortable? I don't see it as punishment, but putting you where you would be most suited.

Hell is hard to define. I hate it when people who talk about an eternity of pain and burning. I see it as more guilt for not doing the things that we knew we should have. If we didn't know, then there would be no guilt right?

There are my two bits. My religion preaches a different view of things. I feel fear is always one of the poorest forms of motivation available.

[sergeant]

Additionally, Hell is the absence of God.......I'll find the reference....but I was taught hell is eternal torment without the presence of God or his love......

Do you not fear or did you not fear your fathers, even tough you known they loved you....

Fear alone doesn't keep you out of Hell...loving God and having faith is important the most important..part.

Well if that is the case then it is not as if we are not in hell right now.

Starboy
No you are not in hell although it feels like it sometimes....God is still here....and not forsaken us as he will after judgement day....you still have the chance to repent....

I'm not trying to win you over or save your souls....only explaining the Christian view behind your posts.

[Starboy]

Quote by: sergeant Additionally, Hell is the absence of God.......I'll find the reference....but I was taught hell is eternal torment without the presence of God or his love......

Well if that is the case then it is not as if we are not in hell right now.

Starboy

[sergeant]

To all of you.......thank you very much.....you have made it an issue for me to read the Bible everyday so that when face with challenges of this nature I will be able to stand my ground......it is only going to make me make dedicated to my faith and learning....so I say you have brought me closer to my faith than ever before...strange how things work like that.....

[Starboy]

If there is a hell that is where I want to go. I suspect there is a better class of people in hell.

Starboy

[sergeant]

Quote by: Starboy If there is a hell that is where I want to go. I suspect there is a better class of people in hell. Starboy

you are well on your way

[LetThereBe]

Several things:

I have heard several Christians speak against a literal Hell. In revelation it is described as resurection, judgement, then second death, by being cast into the lake of fire. Most of the times hell is mentioned is during parables or visions, hence meaning that they might be metaphors. For example, in revelation it does say a few times that "their torment shall rise forever and ever" and in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man you have the picture of burning. I wouldn't necessarily take these symobolic visions and parables as an absolute certainty.
Fear of God is a very powerful thing. But you quoted me above out of context. That referred to a fear of death, which you yourself provided a verse against. "Fear not those that can destroy the body... but rather Him that can destroy the soul"

[Starboy]

Quote by: sergeant you are well on your way

The sad thing about it is that if there is a god and a heaven and hell my bet is that you and I will be there in hell together. Nothing personal bud but if it were in my power I would have no problem sending you off to heaven. This very moment if I could.

Starboy

[sergeant]

Quote by: Starboy The sad thing about it is that if there is a god and a heaven and hell my bet is that you and I will be there in hell together. Nothing personal bud but if it were in my power I would have no problem sending you off to heaven. This very moment if I could. Starboy

watch yourself jack you are close to have changes filed against you criminal charges...that could be taken as a threat...and push me too far....my husband is on duty...I'll email him the link.....He'll have no problem writing up the charges........

[Starboy]

Quote by: sergeant watch yourself jack you are close to have changes filed against you criminal charges...that could be taken as a threat...and push me too far....my husband is on duty...I'll email him the link.....He'll have no problem writing up the charges........

What? You don't want to go to heaven? But go ahead. I didn't say I had the power to do anything. But it is funny what an alergic reaction you are having. Watsamatter? Your faith not strong enough?

Starboy

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Starboy What? You don't want to go to heaven? But go ahead. I didn't say I had the power to do anything. But it is funny what an alergic reaction you are having. Watsamatter? Your faith not strong enough? Starboy

Does it ever bother you that you believe in an existence devoid of any ultimate purpose?

[Starboy]

Quote by: LetThereBe Does it ever bother you that you believe in an existence devoid of any ultimate purpose?

Does it bother you that you believe in a purpose that you had nothing to do with? Does it bother you that you really have no idea what that purpose could actually be? It is not as if you can really know the mind of god. Your hope for god must also include a hope that god actually gives a shit.

As an atheist I get to set my own purpose. You see having third parties set your purpose is not something that most people actually like to have happen.

Starboy

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: Flip Jackson We teach a TON about heaven, and almost nothing about Hell.

From where does this information come? I listed everything in my article that the Bible says about Heaven. There's not a whole lot to say about it, scripturally.

Fear drives people to mediocre acts. They want to be good enough to go to heaven, but want to do so with the least effort possible.

Agreed, but I'm not sure it's fear that does this. It's people wanting the reward at the end without having to give up too much earthly pleasure.

We teach that the better you are, the better your standing in the next life. Basically, you will be with the kind of people that you are. There are my two bits. My religion preaches a different view of things

Again, is this Biblical or just something your denomination made up?

Quote by: sergeant Additionally, Hell is the absence of God.......I'll find the reference....but I was taught hell is eternal torment without the presence of God or his love......

So it's eternal torment PLUS the abscence of God. Not sure I see how that's worse than just the eternal torment. I'd rather God NOT be there to gloat over me the whole time.

Do you not fear or did you not fear your fathers, even tough you known they loved you....

My father wouldn't throw me in an oven for five seconds, much less eternity.

I'm not trying to win you over or save your souls....only explaining the Christian view behind your posts.

No need to be apologetic, this is a debate based around an aspect of Christianity, it would be expected that you'd discuss your views of the faith.

watch yourself jack you are close to have changes filed against you criminal charges...that could be taken as a threat...and push me too far....my husband is on duty...I'll email him the link.....He'll have no problem writing up the charges........

Something that sounds vaguely like a threat is meaningless. In fact, two seperate police officers have told me that death threats are not illegal and are covered by our Constitutional freedom of speech. Silly I know, but this is what I was told when I tried to report death threats given to me. I was told I couldn't do a thing about it. Nobody is scared of your husband.

Quote by: Let There Be But you quoted me above out of context.

I was simply trying to set up a "reference point" for the beginning of this thread, since I was trying to branch it off of the other one.

Does it ever bother you that you believe in an existence devoid of any ultimate purpose?

Define "ultimate purpose." Some of us would rather be happy here on earth than give up happiness for an afterlife that may not exist. And don't tell me how happy you are as a Christian and how you didn't give anything up. Been there, done that, wasn't happy, left. But I'm sure it was because I didn't subscribe to your form of Christianity. That's usually the answer I get.

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Starboy Does it bother you that you believe in a purpose that you had nothing to do with? Does it bother you that you really have no idea what that purpose could actually be? It is not as if you can really know the mind of god. Your hope for god must also include a hope that god actually gives a shit. As an atheist I get to set my own purpose. You see having third parties set your purpose is not something that most people actually like to have happen. Starboy

And what purpose have you set? There can be no ultimate purpose, for you are doomed to death. Any contribution you make to humanity will be forgotten, because ours is a species doomed to extinction. The universe itself shall decend to oblivion. You can have no purpose, Starboy.

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Son of Belial Define "ultimate purpose." Some of us would rather be happy here on earth than give up happiness for an afterlife that may not exist. And don't tell me how happy you are as a Christian and how you didn't give anything up. Been there, done that, wasn't happy, left. But I'm sure it was because I didn't subscribe to your form of Christianity. That's usually the answer I get.

Indeed, and it is not a suprising answer, and one I would never give. True Christianity is anything but pleasant.