Fear as a tool for religion

[SNPete]

Quote by: Sonart Well then, please explain this... we've all seen it. There's a horrific accident presented on the news... plane crash, train wreck, ship, tornado, earthquake, whatever. Many people die, but a couple who survived the harrowing ordeal go before the news cameras to tell their story. Invariably, they say something like..."We just prayed to God, and we have no doubt that God answered our prayers." Did God answer their prayers? Because if so, I always assume that among the dozens or however many who didn't survive, surely most of them also prayed with all their hearts for God to save them. So were they not praying hard enough? Did God find them unworthy of being saved? Or did God simply pick and choose arbitrarily who lives and dies, and therefore the couple was completely mistaken that God answered their prayers? Seems fairly sadistic to me. .

Your point is well taken. But God is the Boss.

I Should politly say: Who are we to tell God how to do things?

I don’t know why things happen the way that the do. I do know that this world, this life that we have is from God. I f you don’t like God that is your choice. Just know that you owe your existence to God.

Note what the Bible says:

Romans 9:14-21

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[a] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[b] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[c] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

[Sonart]

Quote by: SNPete I Should politly say: Who are we to tell God how to do things?

And I would politely respond, how convenient for God.

Uncle Bob gets sick, we all pray for Uncle Bob to get better, Uncle Bob gets better, Hooray, God has answered our prayers.

Uncle Bob gets sick, we all pray for Uncle Bob to get better, Uncle Bob dies, Oh well, God works in mysterious ways, who are we to tell God how to do things.

What's the difference between this and simply the laws of nature combined with probability and chance?

Quote by: SNPete Note what the Bible says:

To repeat another poster, I'm not particularly interested in the mythology and musings of some religious bronze age goat herder. However, you're quote takes us right back to what I asked above... what's the difference between "I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" and pure, arbitrary chance and the laws of nature? Gott mit uns??? Can you tell?

.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: SNPete Friend your are living a lie. If you want to paint God as being sadistic then go for it. Worship your idols. Take comfort in the little statues of wood and stone. Live in rebellion of the creator and worship that which is not. Convince yourself of the lie that God is evil. What a unique concept! I will have to remember that approach. God is evil. Hmm.

You ignored my question and did not show how my belief was wrong.

[SNPete]

Quote by: Son of Belial You ignored my question and did not show how my belief was wrong.

To both of you. Sonart and SOB. Like I care. You guys have no desire for the truth. You only want to argue to justify your beliefs. I am now bored and have no desire to continue with this usless dialogue. And Sonart, you fancy yourself as more important than God???

Time for bed.

God is God. Perhaps you should direct your questions to Him.

Pete out.

[Clarence]

I'm reluctant to try and respond politely.
As for the thread topic. I firmly believe that fear is used to influence people who rely on faith. Not by God of course, but by humans.

As for whether God is a sadist... I'm torn, because this is God's world. He made a savage garden for his own purposes. I don't know whether it's so he wouldn't be lonely in existence or so that he could research his beginnings by watching evolution. Eventually this savage garden will create near perfection if evolution isn't derailed totally by utter destruction. If God's chia pet can produce angels worthy of heaven, maybe it's all worthwhile. But every time an infant screams or roadkill gazes at me from behind frozen pain, I'm reminded of the costs of this possible experiment.

Honestly, I don't know a single bible verse. To engage me on this would be unfair. I'm open to enlightenment. I've seen many good and bad things and overall life is good. For me, at least, life is good. So I don't want to seem pouty. The simplest ideals laid out by religion in general have been a huge factor in turning humans away from primitive savagery (sp)in the first place and continues to do so for some. But what I'm seeing from those who claim to be Christians and also seek power, is fear being used as a tool. God hasn't stopped them yet. It's up to us. May God reward us for the efforts. and for passing the test. or not who cares. I would get tired of eternal existence anyway. God ain't so bad, but if he/she/it exists, I'll need him to explain a few things to those suffering in Africa or to the Native Americans or any soul who has suffered tremendously in God's world. I'd hope he'd have a few harsh things to say to those of us at Wal-Mart daily, as well. Guilty! starting to ramble...

[Sonart]

Quote by: SNPete To both of you. Sonart and SOB. Like I care. You guys have no desire for the truth. You only want to argue to justify your beliefs.

I was unaware that Christians had a monopoly on {{The Truth}}... I thought it was the Moslems... or was it the Mormons... or the Hundus.... the Buddhists??

Here's the problem... I'm convinced that I know {{The Truth}}, as I'm sure bar Belial does as well, which is that gods, spirits, spooks, etc. do not exist. So you can either accept that this is what we deeply believe, and debate us on those terms, or you can take your Bible and go home, because simply quoting your ancient holy book at us isn't going to change our minds about anything, and if that's what you thought when you came here, well, you were mistaken.

Quote by: Clarence I'm reluctant to try and respond politely.

I'm pretty sure most will resond politely if adressed politely, Clarence. If someone gives you a hard time, simply remind them that you didn't insult them and you'd appreciate if the would return the courtesy.

.

[Zealot]

Quote by: Sonart I was unaware that Christians had a monopoly on {{The Truth}}... I thought it was the Moslems... or was it the Mormons... or the Hundus.... the Buddhists?? Here's the problem... I'm convinced that I know {{The Truth}}, as I'm sure bar Belial does as well, which is that gods, spirits, spooks, etc. do not exist. So you can either accept that this is what we deeply believe, and debate us on those terms, or you can take your Bible and go home, because simply quoting your ancient holy book at us isn't going to change our minds about anything, and if that's what you thought when you came here, well, you were mistaken. I'm pretty sure most will resond politely if adressed politely, Clarence. If someone gives you a hard time, simply remind them that you didn't insult them and you'd appreciate if the would return the courtesy. .

Allow me to stay with you guys.....

Never too tired to help the lost....The one big problem you folks have is that you thinkl death is the end, and in your belief, that is all you have. But for the believer there is another world in heaven, life-here-after. Those folks who you think have lost everything have just begun really living if they have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.

Of course reciting our ancient book will not convince some of you but a continual flow of the second comandment coming from us will do pretty good. We came here to give you the good news and another viewpoint, the choice is yours, that's what is so great about our God, we are free to do as we please. Who else is going to tell if we don't?

Zealot....Jesus loves you and so do I

[Compugasm]

Quote by: Zealot Zealot....Jesus loves you and so do I

Hey, keep your hands where I can see em.

[Locutus]

When I was about 8 years old i was sitting in the lounge room one sunday afternoon. One of those fire and brimstone preachers was on the TV. Here is what i heard him say..., i remember it nearly word for word and I am now 44 years old.

You ask me how long does a sinner stay in hell. I'll tell you friend. Imagine a ball of solid steel the same size as the sun, and in the same position in space as the sun. Every 10,000 years a sparrow will fly out from earth and its wing will brush against the steel ball. When that ball is worn away to nothing, then my friend you will be releast from the torment of hell.

He said this after what i now know as the churches typical "let's scare the shit out of the vulnerable" speech when describing what hell is like.

Mate, i got to tell you as a 8 year old kid i was one frightened puppy. I cried with fear. I cried myself to sleep thinking i might go to hell. I said to myself. Boy i better start beleiving in God or I will be in trouble.But then i thought. but surely if god was real he would know i was trying to beleive in him through fear and punish me because i was not doing it for the right reason. But then if i do.......

This line of thought went on for a long long time. All the while argueing back and forth with myself trying to reason out what i should do. In the end i could not bring myself to beleive in god because of fear. It just didnt sit right. It felt like making the dog sit with you when he doesnt want to, kiding yourself that he wants to be there. So i just gave up trying to sort out what to beleive and ended up beleiving in nothing. But I still cried my self to sleep many nights scared shitless of going to hell, "you know in case i am wrong" Now as an adult I cant bring myself to beleive in a singe supreme being. And I hate the church and all it represents. I have no problem with a persons personal beleif in god, thats fine by me, each to there own and rightly so. but the church can bloody well "go to hell" for all the darn greif it has caused me and anyone else that has ever been upset by these idiot fire and brimstone preachers. Now though, many years later, I do now however have some beleifs, in my own enterpretation of what might be. So i sleep better at nght, just a little. At 44 i dont cry myself to sleep anymore but I do still sometimes worry about being wrong and going to hell.

Now please, you tell me again why it is ok for the church to use the fire and brimstone approch to recruit new beleivers.. i didnt quite get it on the first 600 or so entries. Nor have I been able to work it out over the last 36 years.

[SNPete]

Quote by: Sonart : Here's the problem... I'm convinced that I know {{The Truth}}, as I'm sure bar Belial does as well, which is that gods, spirits, spooks, etc. do not exist. So you can either accept that this is what we deeply believe, and debate us on those terms, or you can take your Bible and go home, because simply quoting your ancient holy book at us isn't going to change our minds about anything, and if that's what you thought when you came here, well, you were mistaken. .

I have no illusion of changing your mind. But I do like to share the truth. What is truth? I guess we will find out.

If I am wrong I lose nothing. I have a great life and peace of mind. No fear of death. However if your (the atheist) view is wrong then you will have a major problem upon death.

BTW, You are incorrect regarding SOB. He has indicated that he worships gods and idols.

Quote by: Son of Belial Kind of. We use images of the gods as a way to focus on them. It's much easier than closing your eyes and pretending they're there. In effect the statue becomes a "house" for the god to reside in, at least for the time that you're praying or doing dedications, whatever. It's kind of complex and could fill a book just to explain, and I speak only for my denomination and not for any others, though I suspect most of them would agree to me.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: Sonart Here's the problem... I'm convinced that I know {{The Truth}}, as I'm sure bar Belial does as well, which is that gods, spirits, spooks, etc. do not exist. So you can either accept that this is what we deeply believe, and debate us on those terms,

I do believe in some of those things, but prefer to leave them out of a serious debate as they cannot be proven.

or you can take your Bible and go home

He already said that was what he was going to do because he can't prove anything.

Quote by: Zealot The one big problem you folks have is that you thinkl death is the end, and in your belief, that is all you have.

I haven't said this.

Quote by: SNPete BTW, You are incorrect regarding SOB. He has indicated that he worships gods and idols.

Oh, now it's Gods AND idols. I'm glad they got at least a little bit of a promotion.

[SNPete]

Quote by: Locutus Now please, you tell me again why it is ok for the church to use the fire and brimstone approch to recruit new beleivers.. i didnt quite get it on the first 600 or so entries. Nor have I been able to work it out over the last 36 years.

1 John 4:8 God is Love.

I agree with you that scaring people is not a good approach.Look at the effect it had on you. By your story, you must've been a Catholic.

My church and many others use the other side of the coin. The side of love and relationship. That is that God loves you (please don't puke SoB) and wants you to live in heaven with Him and lots of other people. Hell is a truth, but why scare little kids? Better to draw people by love.

My Church prefers this approach:

John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

[Son of Belial]

I am now bored and have no desire to continue with this usless dialogue.

Yet you continue.

You've already agreed that it's okay for God to torment people because he's powerful enough. You've already admitted he's a sadistic fascit. And you still haven't answered me as to why it would be ungodlike for me to kill and torture, since God does those things.

Why are you still arguing since a ) you've already agreed with those terms, b ) you won't answer my question, and c ) you already said you don't want to continue arguing?

If I am wrong I lose nothing. I have a great life and peace of mind. No fear of death. However if your (the atheist) view is wrong then you will have a major problem upon death.

If you're wrong and some other god is the true god, you're in trouble though.

EDIT: looks like you took some of this to another thread. We can continue there.

[Clarence]

Quote by: SNPete John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Quick question on this. I thought we were all God's children. So if one of God's kids (Jesus)gets killed by some of His other kids, who's fault is that? Also, how does that save me or whatever? Not to oversimplify but...

[Jack]

By your story, you must've been a Catholic.

Huh? How did you reach that conclusion from:

I do now however have some beleifs, in my own enterpretation of what might be.

Every "Fire & Brimstone" preacher I ever heard was a protestant. Catholics tend to be much less horrific in their descriptions of hell than the protestants.

[Zealot]

[quote=Locutus]When I was about 8 years old i was sitting in the lounge room one sunday afternoon. One of those fire and brimstone preachers was on the TV. Here is what i heard him say..., i remember it nearly word for word and I am now 44 years old.

You ask me how long does a sinner stay in hell. I'll tell you friend. Imagine a ball of solid steel the same size as the sun, and in the same position in space as the sun. Every 10,000 years a sparrow will fly out from earth and its wing will brush against the steel ball. When that ball is worn away to nothing, then my friend you will be releast from the torment of hell.

I GOTCHA Locutus: and fully understand, have seen the problem time and time again. I Thank God I had God fearing, loving parents and a Lutheran Pastor who made church and my relationship with God a beautiful, happy, long lasting experience.

Try this Locutus.....Realize that your feelings toward the church stem from one man. There should have been follow up from someone for you but that's water over the dam now.
You have turned God and His church out of your life because of what happened to you as a child. Try to look at the church and God as a adult now. The people who attend church are cripples and sinners, remember!, don't expect them to be perfect, only Jesus was that.

You know now what damage can be done to a youngster if we are not careful.
I believe that God would love to have you get involved in the church today and help other little kids get the right Christian education so they don't get messed up like you did, ok?
You are sorely needed my friend, from a sunday school teacher who is helping little kids just like you were once. Please come back!

Zealot, praying for you!

[Zealot]

Quote by: Isherwood Huh? How did you reach that conclusion from: Every "Fire & Brimstone" preacher I ever heard was a protestant. Catholics tend to be much less horrific in their descriptions of hell than the protestants.

You are quite right Ish. I come from the fire and brimmeys and here is why. The Catholics believe you can buy or be bought out of hell with money and beads after you die. We don't see that in God's word. Once you die that is it!!!! too late mate. So if death is so final and abrupt, we gotta teach and preach like hell to save you, right?

Zealot

[Zealot]

Quote by: Clarence Quick question on this. I thought we were all God's children. So if one of God's kids (Jesus)gets killed by some of His other kids, who's fault is that? Also, how does that save me or whatever? Not to oversimplify but...

Try to remember that death to the Christian is not the worst thing that can happen to you. Life here-after can be so much better, right? Un- Like the atheist, it's not over!

Zealot

[Locutus]

believe that God would love to have you get involved in the church today and help other little kids get the right Christian education so they don't get messed up like you did

Thanks for the sentiment, it is very nice of you to say what you did. The problem is though, my cynicism as a child and young man has caused me to look at the church in general and look a little at history, look a little at the present, and look a little at the differences. unfortunatly I just cant see many redeeming qualities in the church. Don't get me wrong, I am cool with a persons own personal beleif in god, that is there choice. But the church has just done so much damage in the past to so many people I just can't understand why people would want any part of it. If someone better with words than I took all the misdoings of the church, gave them a ficticious organisation name and hid anything that could identify the church, just kept the deeds done in the story, then and put it all in a novel I recon most would be horrified and say what an evil pack of buggers that xyz organisation was in that book. Yet as soon as we put the word church in front of it its all ok, there is no accountability for all the horrible things that have been done in the name of the church. I just cant get past this at all. I find it mind boggling that people who are connected with church xyz just ignore this. But as i said I have no personal problem with a beleif in god, that is everyones free choice.
Its just the church I hate.

Cheers

Lo

[Zealot]

Quote by: Locutus Thanks for the sentiment, it is very nice of you to say what you did. The problem is though, my cynicism as a child and young man has caused me to look at the church in general and look a little at history, look a little at the present, and look a little at the differences. unfortunatly I just cant see many redeeming qualities in the church. Don't get me wrong, I am cool with a persons own personal beleif in god, that is there choice. But the church has just done so much damage in the past to so many people I just can't understand why people would want any part of it. If someone better with words than I took all the misdoings of the church, gave them a ficticious organisation name and hid anything that could identify the church, just kept the deeds done in the story, then and put it all in a novel I recon most would be horrified and say what an evil pack of buggers that xyz organisation was in that book. Yet as soon as we put the word church in front of it its all ok, there is no accountability for all the horrible things that have been done in the name of the church. I just cant get past this at all. I find it mind boggling that people who are connected with church xyz just ignore this. But as i said I have no personal problem with a beleif in god, that is everyones free choice. Its just the church I hate. Cheers Lo

I too could write a book about the wrong in the church, they aren't perfect and neither are you, or me, right? Might I remind you, ya can't judge a horse by its color. Not all churches are alike, there is one for you and you must realize that they need you with your insight. If you save one child from the hurt, God will say well done my good and faithful servant. Look what they did to Jesus, they haven't changed ya know! There is also a whole bunch of stuff the world has done that is not so nice to kids, have you quit living in the world? Give it another try and raise your sights, let the holy Spirit take care of the others. We need you! and so does God!

Zealot, God bless you bro!