Fear as a tool for religion

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: Flip Jackson Son of Belial, I will give you a few examples. And another thing you might look for are other words for heaven. Paradise is used a few times to describe a portion of the afterlife.

I realize this.

I have to give a little background on the first one. Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead on 1 Cirthians 15. In verses 40 through 42 we read that there are different bodies that have different glories. Then Paul says "so also is the resurrection of the dead." We are resurrected to diffrerent glories depending on how we lived our lives.

40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.


I'm not interpreting this the same way you are.

In 2 Corinthians 12:2, Paul mentions a "third heaven," again showing that there isn't a heavn/hell line, but a variety of places we could end up.

That's interesting...

In John 14:2, Jesus speaks of "many mansions."

I interpreted that a bit differently than you did.

You get the idea. I just wanted to give a few examples of the concept of more than one "degree" of heaven because it is against the norm.

I'm used to "against the norm," I was raised a JW.

Now, I might be able to find more, but I am kind of sleepy and having hard time with the whole alertness thing.

Understandable.

Keep in mind that we don't rely solely on the Bible, but we do feel that the Bible supports our ideas and doctrines that come from the Book of Mormon and current prophets. That may sound cheesy or convenient to you, but doesn't it make sense that if God led a church with prophets in the past, He would continue to do so now?

This question could be a thread all on its own and as such I will avoid answering it but attempt to stick to the topic at hand.

Also, the Bible isn't exactly perfect.

Surely you jest.

It has been retranslated and copied so many times. I would bet that at times people excluded descriptions of heaven and left the descriptions of Hell. Although fear is a horrible means of motivation, I am sure that early "Christian" leaders found it to be rather effective.

But of course.

Sorry, if that wasn't what you were looking for, but that's what I have for you right now.

No, I appreciate the effort and look forward to your response or any further information, though again, as I said, I would prefer to stick to the Bible and not go into the Book of Mormon.

[Flip Jackson]

I have about a minute left of my lunch break. One problem here is that we are looking at different versions of the Bible. Today or tomorrow I will write what the King James version has for the scripture in 1 Corithians. And the interpretation thing is why we have so many churches now. But our interpretation of the Bible is definately affected by our other sources. Sometimes we recognize that more than one interpretation could be correct.

[Compugasm]

Quote by: CheckMate Jesus has done extraordinary things...

Maybe, but he might be over-rated with his accomplishments.

[Flip Jackson]

Here is the Corithians exerpt from the King James Bible.

40 There are also celestial bodies and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

We believe there are three "degrees" of heaven. Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. The glory of the sun would be representative of the celestial, moon-terrestrial, and stars-telestial. Notice that it says the stars differ from one another in glory. We take this to mean that even in the Telestial degree of heaven, people differ in their glories. People will be resurrected to the different glories depending on how they lived this life. Hence the word "bodies." Our bodies will be resurrected to glories corresponding to the degree of heaven we attain.

Sorry, if that response was a bit awkward or repetitive. It is late and I need sleep....Work at 5 tomorrow morning. Ugh.

[Zealot]

Quote by: Son of Belial The difference is that the black and white cruiser or a knock at the door is feared because the person could be "bad." Someone in that context is someone you would consider a criminal. Your god, according to you, is not a criminal, and you love him. Do you love the guy who knocks on your door at 2am to shoot you or rob you? Are you really comparing a robber, rapist and murderer to God? I wasn't being deceitful. The Bible pushes its message through fear. It describes Hell perfectly and Heaven vaguely, despite the fact that Hell is mentioned only a dozen times but Heaven is mentioned hundreds. What does that tell you? If you want to debate my opinion fine, but don't start slinging mud by saying I'm being deceitful.

Son of B....
The blk and wht cruiser is a State cop in our state and a knock on the door at night could be bad news. The criminal aspect is yours. The definition of deceit in the dictionary uses the word trick, but in the interest of good debate I will not use the word again, I apologize.

I have my Bible concordance open to the word heaven for the entire Bible and I see about 150 "heavens" Where did you find 649? There are about 50 scriptures listed that describe heaven from, inhabitants, things lacking in, positive characteristics, who gets in, believers attitude toward, to described as.

Your statement that the chuirch rarely leaves out the word "hell" in it's service is a strecth of truth. Oh yes, we do talk about the hell of a life we led when we were out of God's will for our lives.

But the greatest word that pushes the Christian into God's service is the word "LOVE" which is found over 250 times in the entire Bible Son of B. Why did you leave that word out sir? Write an article on the word love in the Bible and start with John 3:16. Thanks for your reply.

Zealot

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: Zealot Son of B.... The blk and wht cruiser is a State cop in our state and a knock on the door at night could be bad news. The criminal aspect is yours.

I hadn't realized you were talking about a cop. In that case, I wouldn't be afraid. I don't care if there is a cop behind me.

I have my Bible concordance open to the word heaven for the entire Bible and I see about 150 "heavens" Where did you find 649? There are about 50 scriptures listed that describe heaven from, inhabitants, things lacking in, positive characteristics, who gets in, believers attitude toward, to described as.

I used an online Bible, typed "heaven," and saw how many times it popped up.

Your statement that the chuirch rarely leaves out the word "hell" in it's service is a strecth of truth. Oh yes, we do talk about the hell of a life we led when we were out of God's will for our lives.

If you say so.

But the greatest word that pushes the Christian into God's service is the word "LOVE" which is found over 250 times in the entire Bible Son of B. Why did you leave that word out sir?

Because it was irrelevant to the discussion. If we were going to go there, I could look up how many times "hate" came up, I may as well look up every word and see how many times they appear. The point was Heaven and Hell.

Write an article on the word love in the Bible and start with John 3:16. Thanks for your reply.

Okay, I'll start with when Jesus says he came only for the Jews as an example of his love.


EDIT: My article says six hundred and ten, not 649.

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: tinybear Most religions demand obedience and loyalty to a superior being. And how is such obedience and loyalty ensured? By fear of course.

That is not the only way. Have you ever obeyed simply because you care more about what a person thought than about any consequence? Have you ever feared disapointing someone more than punishment from them?

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: LetThereBe That is not the only way. Have you ever obeyed simply because you care more about what a person thought than about any consequence? Have you ever feared disapointing someone more than punishment from them?

Yes, generally because they're earned my respect and done things for me in the past to warrant me caring if I dissappoint them. God has not done this.

[Zealot]

[quote=Son of Belial]I hadn't realized you were talking

You spoke of my typos, is it alright if I mention your inaccuracies?

649 - 610 "heavens" they are both inacurate. You did not mention that the place "heaven was described over fifty times in the Bible. When you are commenting on the reasons for Christian belief it is unfair and inaccurate of you to leave out the word "love" since God specifically said..."For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...."

Yes, you can also use the word hate which is used about 150 times. That's why they killed Jesus, hate, right? The word "love" when referring to Christianity can only be left out by someone who is deliberately wanting to defame the word of God and Christians.

Zealot, I love you and so does Jesus.

[Son of Belial]

Let me open by saying I'm confused. Feel free to make a joke about it.

Quote by: Zealot Quote by: Son of Belial I hadn't realized you were talking You spoke of my typos, is it alright if I mention your inaccuracies?

I wasn't trying to pick out a typo. I had misunderstood your intention. Is that okay?

649 - 610 "heavens" they are both inacurate.

I just did a search for the word "Heaven."
http://bible.gospelcom.net/keyword/i...tartnumber=601

Shows up, in the NIV, 606 times.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/keyword/i...tartnumber=676

Shows up in the KJV 691 times.

So stop making a big deal about whether it's 610, 649, or whatever.

You did not mention that the place "heaven was described over fifty times in the Bible.

Please show me these amazingly detailed descriptions, and I will be quite saddened if the references you show mention the description I already gave.

When you are commenting on the reasons for Christian belief it is unfair and inaccurate of you to leave out the word "love" since God specifically said..."For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...."

The topic was Heaven, Hell, and the use of fear. Love and hate are two totally different topics. I don't understand why you aren't grasping this. The article was one I originally wrote called "Heaven and Hell." I can give you the exact url so you can see it in its original context if you like.

Yes, you can also use the word hate which is used about 150 times.

Since you want to make a big deal about the exact number, it's 179 in the KJV. This is totally unimportant, but since it seems to be a major issue for you, I can play that game as well.

That's why they killed Jesus, hate, right?

I would think that's more or less why anyone kills anyone.

The word "love" when referring to Christianity can only be left out by someone who is deliberately wanting to defame the word of God and Christians.

Yes, everytime someone discusses Christianity and doesn't bring "love" into the topic, they're trying to defame the word of God.

Zealot, I love you and so does Jesus.

Are you talking to yourself?

[SNPete]

Fear or Love? Some would have you believe that Christianity is based on fear. However that is a lie.

Consider the following:

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

1John 4:7-21

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

[Merlov01]

In my opinion religion is also founded on ignorance, as well as fear.

[Son of Belial]

Yet behind that "everlasting life" is the alternative, Hell. You can quote a scripture that says love, love, love, but Hell is always right behind or ahead of it, mentally. It's like saying "I love you, so I will allow you to live if you do what I tell you. If you don't, I'll drive needles under your fingernails, right before I pry the nails out altogether and jab you in the eyes with them. I'm giving you a choice, because I love you." That's a twisted sense of love.

[SNPete]

Quote by: Merlov01 In my opinion religion is also founded on ignorance, as well as fear.

Hey!

Your avatar is my avatar in 40 years!!!

Ha. I love it!

[SNPete]

Quote by: Son of Belial Yet behind that "everlasting life" is the alternative, Hell. You can quote a scripture that says love, love, love, but Hell is always right behind or ahead of it, mentally. It's like saying "I love you, so I will allow you to live if you do what I tell you. If you don't, I'll drive needles under your fingernails, right before I pry the nails out altogether and jab you in the eyes with them. I'm giving you a choice, because I love you." That's a twisted sense of love.

OK, Mister smarty pants. Find the word hell in the book of First John.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: SNPete OK, Mister smarty pants. Find the word hell in the book of First John.

When did I say I could? I said that you have two options: eternal life or hellfire. They go together. Please show me how my example is innacurate.

By the way, I think the article I posted even mentioned that John didn't describe Hell very much. I'm too lazy to check though.

[SNPete]

Quote by: Son of Belial When did I say I could? I said that you have two options: eternal life or hellfire. They go together. Please show me how my example is innacurate. By the way, I think the article I posted even mentioned that John didn't describe Hell very much. I'm too lazy to check though.

Very well. Consider this. It is called the truth of the matter.

1. God created all that there is.
2. God is the Boss.
3. God gets to make the rules.
4. He decided that people who chose to serve/worship other gods or have no interest in Him get to go to hell. A place to spend eternity without God.
5. The people who want to be with God get to spend eternity with Him on the New Earth.

Thems are the rules.

It doesn't matter if you like God or not. It doesn't matter what you believe. Thruth is truth and that does not change.

We have free will to pick our destiny. With or without God.

The choice is yours.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: SNPete Very well. Consider this. It is called the truth of the matter. 1. God created all that there is. 2. God is the Boss. 3. God gets to make the rules.

Basically you're saying that since he's God, it's okay for him to be a sadistic fascist. I already understood this, and never contested it. That was actually the point I was trying to make, I'm glad you agree.

Since we've agreed that God is allowed to be a sadist and hurt people just because he can, let's move on to a new direction. Since we're trying to be more Godlike, and God has demonstrated that you can do whatever you want as long as you're powerful enough, there's nothing wrong with me killing and torturing as long as I get away with it. God does those things, and he does them because he can. So if I was strong enough to do them and get away with it, that would make me Godlike.

[SNPete]

Quote by: Son of Belial Basically you're saying that since he's God, it's okay for him to be a sadistic fascist. I already understood this, and never contested it. That was actually the point I was trying to make, I'm glad you agree. Since we've agreed that God is allowed to be a sadist and hurt people just because he can, let's move on to a new direction. Since we're trying to be more Godlike, and God has demonstrated that you can do whatever you want as long as you're powerful enough, there's nothing wrong with me killing and torturing as long as I get away with it. God does those things, and he does them because he can. So if I was strong enough to do them and get away with it, that would make me Godlike.

Friend your are living a lie. If you want to paint God as being sadistic then go for it. Worship your idols. Take comfort in the little statues of wood and stone. Live in rebellion of the creator and worship that which is not.

Convince yourself of the lie that God is evil. What a unique concept! I will have to remember that approach. God is evil. Hmm.

[Sonart]

Quote by: SNPete Friend your are living a lie. If you want to paint God as being sadistic then go for it. Worship your idols. Take comfort in the little statues of wood and stone. Live in rebellion of the creator and worship that which is not.

Well then, please explain this... we've all seen it. There's a horrific accident presented on the news... plane crash, train wreck, ship, tornado, earthquake, whatever. Many people die, but a couple who survived the harrowing ordeal go before the news cameras to tell their story. Invariably, they say something like..."We just prayed to God, and we have no doubt that God answered our prayers."

Did God answer their prayers? Because if so, I always assume that among the dozens or however many who didn't survive, surely most of them also prayed with all their hearts for God to save them. So were they not praying hard enough? Did God find them unworthy of being saved? Or did God simply pick and choose arbitrarily who lives and dies, and therefore the couple was completely mistaken that God answered their prayers? Seems fairly sadistic to me.

.